Herdman new head coach

[Cheeta]

4 minutes ago, frmr said:

Exactly, a better candidate came in and got the job. It's happened millions of times, in every industry all over the world. I've really tried to understand the special brand of obsession on this forum with this routine business decision, but I can't. If Herdman did that and then completely shit the bed, then sure, that is certainly a topic for discussion, but so far he's come as advertised, so... I really don't understand the problem. From my estimation, it seems like a business decision that paid off. Nothing more, nothing less.

Spot on 

Think that I would have shook his hand and wished him luck myself, but point stands.

[narduch]

7 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

But he didn't back-stab! If you go into a job interview and they ask you what are you gonna do for us and you tell them does that mean you back-stabbed the person who is presently doing the job and not doing it as well as you will?

 

One thing about the kind of person that does something like that, they will do it again. 

[Sal333]

2 minutes ago, narduch said:

One thing about the kind of person that does something like that, they will do it again. 

So when you go into a job interview, you tell the interviewer that you will fuck-up as much as you can and you'll not do a damn thing for them?

For chrissakes, Herdman is the third best thing to happen to Canadian soccer! He's right behind Sinclair and Davies.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Sal333

[Joe MacCarthy]

4 minutes ago, frmr said:

Exactly, a better candidate came in and got the job. It's happened millions of times, in every industry all over the world. I've really tried to understand the special brand of obsession on this forum with this routine business decision, but I can't. If Herdman did that and then completely shit the bed, then sure, that is certainly a topic for discussion, but so far he's come as advertised, so... I really don't understand the problem. From my estimation, it seems like a business decision that paid off. Nothing more, nothing less.

Which considering how much the CSA has been shit on here, it's quite amazing.  They made a right business decision.  The took a calculated risk that one man knew more than another about everything to do with the business, not just one small part, and fortunately it paid off.  It's unfortunate that there had to be a "victim" to achieve the greater good.

[narduch]

1 minute ago, Sal333 said:

So when you go into a job interview, you tell the interviewer that you will fuck-up as much as you can and you'll not do a damn thing for them?

I'm not sure what you mean. I think you missed the point.

I'm taking about Herdman. He would leave Canada for a better opportunity In a heartbeat.

That's how people who play the corporate game as ruthlessly as he did roll.

[frmr]

Just now, narduch said:

One thing about the kind of person that does something like that, they will do it again. 

I think we'd all be fooling ourselves if we think that Herdman isn't going to move on to the next big project at some point, and that's completely fair. One thing that he's said many times is that he felt like he couldn't take the women's team any further. In the podcast he says he could have maybe changed the colour of the medal, but he wasn't interested in that. Just like he said going to Qatar (in a vacuum) isn't that important to him. I agree that at some point, something will pull him away but I'm confident that that won't be until he feels like he's taken this program as far as it can go. At which point, the foundations will have been built, and then we can bring in a big name or pure tactician manager to take us to the next level on the pitch, which seems to be something that many posters on this forum would be very interested in. And fair enough, I would be too, but not until Herdman has completed his project.

[Sal333]

Just now, narduch said:

I'm not sure what you mean. I think you missed the point.

I'm taking about Herdman. He would leave Canada for a better opportunity In a heartbeat.

That's how people who play the corporate game as ruthlessly as he did roll.

I think he's committed until 2026. I don't want him to leave but I can live with the fact he'll stay till 2026.

[dyslexic nam]

34 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

- there is a club and country dichotomy in the women side also. But I'll go along with your premise. After hearing him speak what made you think he can't negotiate with the big clubs out there? Before he moved to the men's side I had more confidence in Herdman speaking to the big wigs overseas than a Zambrano, Benito or Hart. Have we been refused any player by the big European clubs?

-there was infighting in the men's team because it was permitted by previous coaches not because it was a men's team. If your point had any validity then Herdman would have been incapable of eradicating the in-fighting. There was in-fighting on the team because no thought of putting a stop to it. It had nothing to do with men being more aggressive. There is no in-fighting now. Does that mean this team is less aggressive? And if you think so, Panama, Mexico and El Salvador don't believe you.

-tactics are tactics if a team can't execute them it doesn't matter the gender of the team. What you are basically saying is the women's game is not as skillful as the men's. I agree with you but how does that diminish the quality of the tactics used?

- as for the dual national question. The complaint many on this board have is that Herdman is a salesman, well wouldn't that help bring in the dual-nationals. Also, what dual-nationals has he lost? And don't tell me Tomori. That guy was a Canadian like Ted Cruz was a Canadian. In fact he convinced Akinola and Eustaquio to join the program.

This will be my last post on it because no one is going to convince anyone - it is probably just an echo chamber at this point.  And I probably shouldn’t have even posted last night because it contributed to stirring the pot.  But, to your points…

- I never thought he for sure couldn’t negotiate with big clubs.   But it is something he never would have had to do.   In men’s footy, club football is massively important and club teams have tons or power.  In women’s footy, the international game overshadows the club teams (though the latter is gaining momentum) so the club vs country debate never really materializes.  Herdman thus had no experience dealing with mega-clubs.

- I think you are wrong when it comes to infighting on the men’s team   Maybe it is kept under wraps better in the women’s game but I haven’t heard lots of examples of women’s team members literally coming to blows.  On the men’s side, there are many examples of this level of aggression.  It is a different environment.  And again, I never said that he couldn’t do it - the concern was that it would potentially be something he hadn’t dealt with at that level yet and may or may not be able to manage effectively.  And again, fortunately he has shown himself to be highly capable of succeeding in that respect.  But at the time it was an unknown.   

- I am not sure what to say about the skill/tactics issue.  Ability to succeed at one level does not mean you can do it at another.   I have coached my son’s team at U9, U11 and U13.  I have done fairly well but I suspect there will be a point at which the skills and tactical demands will outgrow my soccer-fan-dad skillset.  That is because the tactics evolve in lockstep with the players. So it is reasonable for me to think that coaching a women’s program may not be as tactically demanding as a men’s program.  If that seems sexist, I am sorry, but I don’t see it as such.   And again, I don’t remember a lot of people claiming that Herdman would be unable to do it - just that he hadn’t already demonstrated the ability to do so.  Thus the skepticism.

- Lastly, re dual nationals, I think the concern centered around the fact that we were a tough sell compared to the CWNT.   That one US traitor aside, the women’s team generally wasn’t at risk of losing quality players to other countries.   The men’s team was - and had a history of it.  Pre-Davies, the highest profile Canadian ever involved with our program chose to represent England at a time when his inclusion may have been enough to put us over the top.   And yet again, the concern wasn’t that Herdman had no capacity to attract these people - it was that doing so on the men’s would be substantially more challenging that getting women to sign up to play alongside the greatest female soccer player of all time.   

Your post seems to imply that most people thought he wouldn’t be able to do all of these things.  IMO, that isn’t accurate - at least with respect to my concerns.  My thinking at the time was that we had no real barometer to judge whether or not he could do these things.  So it was a leap of faith at a time when it felt like our team had real potential.  Zambrano seemed to have our team playing well together in the precursor to Herdman’s hire, so to suddenly take what seemed like a risk was met with resistance.  

Maybe I am only speaking for myself and maybe the thinking was generally a lot more polarized at the time.  But I do resist any attempt to portray all resistance to the hire as merely sexist thinking because I think that is overly simplistic and is unfair to those of us who were a lot more reasoned in our skepticism.  

And again, I am very happy to admit that the skepticism turned out to be unnecessary and the Herdman had been a good hire.  He has demonstrated that he is quite capable of handling all of the challenges noted above.  Good on him, and good on the CSA for having the foresight to see the potential and capability.   

Anyway, agree or disagree, I am out. Going to focus on the positive for the rest of the day.  

Edited October 29, 2021 by dyslexic nam

[trc2014]

Honest question, do you guys think Zambrano would be having the same success as JH right now?  I don’t believe he would.

[Joe MacCarthy]

3 minutes ago, trc2014 said:

Honest question, do you guys think Zambrano would be having the same success as JH right now?  I don’t believe he would.

Agree, also when people derisively call Herdman a salesman, that he is all style and no substance (which is something that can be empirically proved wrong), I say he is a salesman.

He does go out and sell the program.  He does it with media, events, even our own academy players.  The naysayers will say he is doing that to massage his own ego but as more of what is happening to the program is coming to light you have to wonder where he gets the time, and he has a young family.  I am sure he would rather being doing something else than the same stock interviews that he willfully and cheerfully undertakes.  He is a very good salesman and personally I have no buyer's remorse.

[frmr]

7 minutes ago, trc2014 said:

Honest question, do you guys think Zambrano would be having the same success as JH right now?  I don’t believe he would.

I don't think so personally. I have/had nothing against him and I think he was a step up from Benito, but the problems that the men's program had ran so much deeper than just the on-field decisions, and he wasn't brought in to solve those problems.

[Cheeta]

8 minutes ago, trc2014 said:

Honest question, do you guys think Zambrano would be having the same success as JH right now?  I don’t believe he would.

Really?

Don't know.  Guess we'll never know for sure.  Now sure he'd use David and Davies and Larin and Buchanan and Eustaquio any differently or to better effect.

[VinceA]

3 minutes ago, frmr said:

I don't think so personally. I have/had nothing against him and I think he was a step up from Benito, but the problems that the men's program had ran so much deeper than just the on-field decisions, and he wasn't brought in to solve those problems.

Actually based on media reports (Notably from Sandor) right after his replacement it sounds like he was brought in because of his plan to overhaul the men's program then it became apparent he actually had no plan at all, or at least an actual feasible one.

I don't watch Seinfeld so maybe someone else will understand this but his work was likened to George working on the Penske file.

[Free kick]

35 minutes ago, trc2014 said:

Honest question, do you guys think Zambrano would be having the same success as JH right now?  I don’t believe he would.

maybe. maybe not.   We'll never know the answer.    what i do believe is that a good coach cant make a bad team good but a bad coach can make a good team bad.    

was Zambrano a good coach?   we dont know becasue he wasnt there long enough. 

But i am pretty convinced that Herdman is a good coach.  

Edited October 29, 2021 by Free kick

[frmr]

9 minutes ago, VinceA said:

Actually based on media reports (Notably from Sandor) right after his replacement it sounds like he was brought in because of his plan to overhaul the men's program then it became apparent he actually had no plan at all, or at least an actual feasible one.

I don't watch Seinfeld so maybe someone else will understand this but his work was likened to George working on the Penske file.

That's right, I remember reading that. Well then that gives even less credence to the whole backstabbing thing and concerns of the hire. From the sounds of that, it sounds like the CSA did know what they wanted to do, got the first hiring completely wrong, and then basically Herdman walks in and says, fucking hell I'll do it myself.

Also, the Seinfeld metaphor is hilarious to think about, but if that's accurate, that's not a good look...

 

 

[gator]

I wonder what the tone of discussion on here would have been if covid didn't change everything and gave Vic an opportunity to create the Octagon, for those not clued in our capitulation to Haiti in the Gold Cup where JH admitted making mistakes would have cost us a chance at World Cup Qualifying! We may have been debating our next friendly against minnows or other teams on the outside looking in! It doesn't matter now because we are in a good place but things would have probably been seen differently from some anointing Mr. Herdman as the messiah of Canadian soccer! One other point for those newer fans to this program, a lot has gone wrong over the years and we are not yet qualified for the World Cup which causes myself and many of the other long time V's some apprehension I suspect!

Edited October 29, 2021 by gator

[nolbertos]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

I'm not sure what you mean. I think you missed the point.

I'm taking about Herdman. He would leave Canada for a better opportunity In a heartbeat.

That's how people who play the corporate game as ruthlessly as he did roll.

He doesn’t mean that, he means that Herdman would threaten to leave or quit if he doesn’t get promoted.  Most people leave quietly or behind closed doors for a better opportunity but he made it public to the CSA board and they fired Zambrano.  The way the CSA handled it was stupid as even private company when dealing with someone threatening to leave if they don’t get what they asked for would tell them to take a hike.  Also the WCQ is still ongoing and Herdman hasn’t yet achieved his goal.  We’re in the same situation like in past WCQ were we’re sitting pretty but couldn’t win away.  Until its over Herdman is still on trial.

[Shway]

sheit we're still talking about Zambrano eh lol....you ungrateful f#^$% 🤣 

[MM3/MM2/MM]

1 hour ago, trc2014 said:

Honest question, do you guys think Zambrano would be having the same success as JH right now?  I don’t believe he would.

Anywhere Zambrano went he never lasted beyond two years, he seems to have early success and then is quickly shown the door.   

To answer your question, I think if Zambrano was still the coach, we would be much further behind, despite the quantum leap in available talent.

[The Real Marc]

2 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

I'm going to go ahead and accuse Herdman of being racist because he keeps mentioning that the Scottish group went one way, the Spanish players went another way and the Eastern European players went another way after this fight. He never mentions the black players though, and I find this lack of representation on their behalf unacceptable, offensive and racially-motivated.

True, this accusation makes absolutely no sense, is completely ludicrous and totally without foundation, but that doesn't stop others from making the same ludicrous accusations about misogyny. And be warned, if anyone doesn't like this post, I'm going to accuse them of being racist towards Italians.

Lordy. The difference between your accusation and the mysogyny accusation is that there is merit to the latter. It's not ludicrous or without foundation, particularly when referencing the original responses to his hiring, contempt for his experience and successes, and comparing reactions to responses to previous coaches where disdain for their Swiss cheese resumes was absent or very much muted. And that's why it continues to sting I guess. Why are we unable to recognise this and just move on?

The problem is that reaction has, in part, helped result in this wacky polarism we have on Herdman on this board, with one group acting like he's the second coming of Soccer Jesus  (best coach in CONCACAF? okeedokee...) to assuage the scorn they felt in defending his hiring, and the other trying to justify their earlier contempt by nitpicking every little thing they can ... when, at the base of it, he's somewhere in the middle, doing quite well but with glaring flaws that could come home to roost as we move in Central America (and we still didn't beat Honduras at home. Ouch.)

(PS - It's not racism that gets us, just garden variety discrimination.  )

Edited October 29, 2021 by The Real Marc

[CanadaFan123]

12 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

He doesn’t mean that, he means that Herdman would threaten to leave or quit if he doesn’t get promoted.  Most people leave quietly or behind closed doors for a better opportunity but he made it public to the CSA board and they fired Zambrano.  The way the CSA handled it was stupid as even private company when dealing with someone threatening to leave if they don’t get what they asked for would tell them to take a hike.  Also the WCQ is still ongoing and Herdman hasn’t yet achieved his goal.  We’re in the same situation like in past WCQ were we’re sitting pretty but couldn’t win away.  Until its over Herdman is still on trial.

The problem has never been winning away. We have needed draws. We now have 3/3.

[El Hombre]

24 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

He doesn’t mean that, he means that Herdman would threaten to leave or quit if he doesn’t get promoted.  Most people leave quietly or behind closed doors for a better opportunity but he made it public to the CSA board and they fired Zambrano.  The way the CSA handled it was stupid as even private company when dealing with someone threatening to leave if they don’t get what they asked for would tell them to take a hike.  Also the WCQ is still ongoing and Herdman hasn’t yet achieved his goal.  We’re in the same situation like in past WCQ were we’re sitting pretty but couldn’t win away.  Until its over Herdman is still on trial.

That is absolutely not true.  This happens quite often which is why I am surprised at this as a criticism: "Hey boss, I have this offer from a competitor, something that would be very difficult to turn down as this is where I want my career to go.  I'd really like to stay though, is there anything you can do?"

I appreciate that approach more than just jumping ship.  I'd prefer someone to tell me what they want career-wise rather than them just stewing about it and then leaving for something else without any warning.  That gives me the chance to make the decision as to whether this person is worth the extra money/position or letting them go.

[El Hombre]

4 hours ago, Sal333 said:

How did you go from "different people......" to different genders?

Also, claims have been made: example it is different managing men and women. Okay, you may be right. Then again you may be wrong. Here is an opportunity to educate us. But no. You claim we're setting a trap by asking how is it different. Now that sounds like dogma to me and I've attended enough Catholic mass in my youth to recognize dogma when I hear it.  

I thought the point I was making was obvious but, to elaborate:

1) Different people respond to different management strategies.  The main difference between the Women's and Men's teams is their gender, all other things being equal.  Gender does factor into management styles.  What worked for the women's team may not necessarily work for the men's team because men (in general) and women (in general) have different motivations/motivators and respond differently to different management strategies.  One is not better than the other, but they are different. 

2) I'm not going to provide examples because that becomes a message board trap that will be an endless cycle.  I'm not going to say "Women are X..." or "Men are Y..." because that just leads itself to someone replying with "Not all women/men etc...." and then we get so many strawman arguments pop up it starts looking like the Blair Witch Project.  You can believe it is dogma all you want, that doesn't both me at all.  All I was trying to do was relate the fact that my experience of managing people for the last 15 years leads me to recognize that what works for one group, may not work for another. 

And based on that experience, someone with lesser understanding of nuance and interpersonal relationships than Herdman could've easily had the most success with the Women's team but then fall flat on their face with the men's.  Therefore, that is where some skepticism is justified.

[Gian-Luca]

12 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

Lordy. The difference between your accusation and the mysogyny accusation is that there is merit to the latter. It's not ludicrous or without foundation, particularly when referencing the original responses to his hiring, contempt for his experience and successes, and comparing reactions to responses to previous coaches where disdain for their Swiss cheese resumes was absent or very much muted. And that's why it continues to sting I guess. Why are we unable to recognise this and just move on?

There isn't any merit to it though, unless people can demonstrate why that is, and in my view nobody has convincingly done so thus far. Even if we are to assume that people citing Herdman's lack of experience in the men's game is really because they think very little of the quality of the women's game and thus feel it doesn't count for much, it's still a giant leap to equate that assumption with yet another assumption that the people who think less of the women's game do so not because it is of lower quality, speed and skill than the men's game* but because they hate women or have ingrained contempt for them.

*which isn't so much an opinion but an observable, quantifiable fact, hence why the genders are usually kept apart in professional sports, with rare exceptions like Hayley Wickenheiser, our best ever woman's hockey player, managing to play as a bottom six forward on a men's team in the Finnish 2nd or 3rd division (can't remember which off the top of my head), but even that example demonstrates the difference.

If there are clear examples of people who dismiss the women's game because, like Lee Majors did when Farrah Fawcett was on Charlie's Angels instead of being at home cooking for him, they feel that women should be at home cooking, cleaning and looking after kids or some other indication clearly suggests to the reasonable person that it's about contempt for women, by all means let's call out those people specifically and reference exactly what they said and who said it. That would be more productive (and less unnecessarily offensive and insulting) than generalizing and assuming all sorts of awful things about people without even asking them what their motivations and reasoning is or to clarify what they meant (which is pretty easy to do on a forum like this). I don't recall however seeing any such comments three years ago and I am not seeing any such comments now, which is why I call it meritless.

None of this is aimed at you by the way. It's just that for me, Mysogyny is the sort of accusation that should be made with precision and accuracy (since it is a fairly serious accusation), not something that just gets chucked around casually like rice being thrown at one of Elizabeth Taylor's 8 weddings (including both to Richard Burton). Sadly one of the negative aspects of social media (despite the positives that can come with it) is that all-too-often I've seen the accusation get made by people who don't truly know the person they are making the accusation towards, but think that they do based upon a handful of comments, half the time from people who express themselves quickly and without doing so very clearly as a result. Not just here but across so many other types of fandoms or social media discussions, and absolutely nothing good ever comes out of it each and every time. All it does is lead to division, which is ironic in this case since the best thing that Herdman has done (IMO) has been to foster the unity and the "brotherhood" of the team.

[An Observer]

6 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

There isn't any merit to it though, unless people can demonstrate why that is, and in my view nobody has convincingly done so thus far. Even if we are to assume that people citing Herdman's lack of experience in the men's game is really because they think very little of the quality of the women's game and thus feel it doesn't count for much, it's still a giant leap to equate that assumption with yet another assumption that the people who think less of the women's game do so not because it is of lower quality, speed and skill than the men's game* but because they hate women or have ingrained contempt for them.

*which isn't so much an opinion but an observable, quantifiable fact, hence why the genders are usually kept apart in professional sports, with rare exceptions like Hayley Wickenheiser, our best ever woman's hockey player, managing to play as a bottom six forward on a men's team in the Finnish 2nd or 3rd division (can't remember which off the top of my head), but even that example demonstrates the difference.

If there are clear examples of people who dismiss the women's game because, like Lee Majors did when Farrah Fawcett was on Charlie's Angels instead of being at home cooking for him, they feel that women should be at home cooking, cleaning and looking after kids or some other indication clearly suggests to the reasonable person that it's about contempt for women, by all means let's call out those people specifically and reference exactly what they said and who said it. That would be more productive (and less unnecessarily offensive and insulting) than generalizing and assuming all sorts of awful things about people without even asking them what their motivations and reasoning is or to clarify what they meant (which is pretty easy to do on a forum like this). I don't recall however seeing any such comments three years ago and I am not seeing any such comments now, which is why I call it meritless.

None of this is aimed at you by the way. It's just that for me, Mysogyny is the sort of accusation that should be made with precision and accuracy (since it is a fairly serious accusation), not something that just gets chucked around casually like rice being thrown at one of Elizabeth Taylor's 8 weddings (including both to Richard Burton). Sadly one of the negative aspects of social media (despite the positives that can come with it) is that all-too-often I've seen the accusation get made by people who don't truly know the person they are making the accusation towards, but think that they do based upon a handful of comments, half the time from people who express themselves quickly and without doing so very clearly as a result. Not just here but across so many other types of fandoms or social media discussions, and absolutely nothing good ever comes out of it each and every time. All it does is lead to division, which is ironic in this case since the best thing that Herdman has done (IMO) has been to foster the unity and the "brotherhood" of the team.

These days, these type of accusations can simply be thrown around by putting forth no facts and just based on innuendo and historical prejudices. It seems very acceptable in some quarters. Frankly, I find that rather appalling and offensive as it simply makes the same type of broad hurtful baseless accusations against a group that you are supposedly fighting against.