Herdman new head coach

[dyslexic nam]

3 hours ago, Sal333 said:

I hope you understand the implication of your post. If in 6 out of 7 games Herdman didn't get it right, then Canada hasn't been playing at their best. Seeing that we are simply one point out of 1st place, the implication is that on talent Canada is the best team in the region.

I mean, this is close to what it seems like to me.  I don’t think it is realistic to expect that we play perfectly all the time, but if we take the Panama game as an example of what we are capable of (and I think the quality of our roster supports that), it is clear that we haven’t hit that potential more than occasionally during this process.  There have been stretches in other games where we see it but not in a sustained way.  

Mind you, I think you could say something similar about the other teams.  The US have only had periods where their play has matched their talent on paper, and I suspect Mexico is the same.  

But I think @Unnamed Trialistis right - there are clearly issues we need to solve at the management level.  Having our guys come out playing 100% from the opening whistle, making sure that the formation is optimized (and not just changed for the sake of changing), etc.  

[closetboostie]

This isn't a video game where players always perform to their highest level or perform the tactics perfectly as they are drawn on the whiteboard. There will be ebbs and flows individually- Davies performance Friday is a case in point. They are humans trying to reach an historic goal. The challenge will be to get Davies to put aside his personal priorities of putting on a show for his hometown family and friends and being the star- and focus on taking what Mexico gives him to allow his team to win the match. So far Herdman has seemed to push the right buttons and Canada has responded every time. 

The expectation that we should look like world beaters in every match in every condition and against every opponent is crazy. The opponent has just as much time to prepare for the match and destroy what we are doing, taking away our strengths and they will use it. It is much easier to destroy than create. Hopefully Mexico comes in with the mindset they want to dominate the ball and make a statement, that will play into our strengths and we can punish them. 

Edited November 14, 2021 by closetboostie

[dyslexic nam]

7 minutes ago, closetboostie said:

This isn't a video game where players always perform to their highest level or perform the tactics perfectly as they are drawn on the whiteboard. There will be ebbs and flows individually- Davies performance Friday is a case in point. They are humans trying to reach an historic goal. The challenge will be to get Davies to put aside his personal priorities of putting on a show for his hometown family and friends and being the star- and focus on taking what Mexico gives him to allow his team to win the match. So far Herdman has seemed to push the right buttons and Canada has responded every time. 

The expectation that we should look like world beaters in every match in every condition and against every opponent is crazy. The opponent has just as much time to prepare for the match and destroy what we are doing, taking away our strengths and they will use it. It is much easier to destroy than create. Hopefully Mexico comes in with the mindset they want to dominate the ball and make a statement, that will play into our strengths and we can punish them. 

I think that is overstating the point though.   I am not saying that we need to execute absolutely perfectly every time.  But I still think there have been many long periods of disjointed play in multiple games where we look like we are far less than the sum of our parts.  I know the results have been coming and we are in great shape overall, but it seems like there is another gear that we can play in more consistently than we have been.  And I think that is a realistic expectation give the talent we have.   For example, I don’t expect Davies to play every game like he did against Panama - but I also think it is reasonable to expect that he doesn’t play like he did against CR.   There is a lot of daylight between those two options.   

[youllneverwalkalone]

Herdman has spoken of another gear many times. He's trying to find it.

 

 

[gator]

7 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

Herdman has spoken of another gear many times. He's trying to find it.

 

 

I think that is what frustrates us as fans sometimes, we have seen what happens when this team starts firing on all cylinders and quite frankly we look unbeatable when we get in that groove, of course every minute of every match is not going to be like that but as fans we wonder why not! As pointed out in posts above there are many reasons why we won't be our best at all times and I believe the #1 reason is our opponents countering what we are trying to do, field conditions, tactics and player selections all influence this, obviously the coach has a vital role!

[Kadenge]

the inconsistency is going to happen with a team where the star players are still very young. Davies should be out wide but regardless of where he played on Friday, I suspect he would have played in a similar fashion...trying to do too much. Herdman's hand was a bit forced with Larin, Cav and Ike so it was either Tajon or Davies with David.  We came away with a win and Davies got his first "home" game under his belt and can now settle into a more professional performance on Tuesday.

[BearcatSA]

Herdman's doing the right things.  There's attention to detail and clear preparation but without needless, confusing tinkering to show that he's the smartest guy in the room (which undermined MDS in Vancouver).

I am looking forward to what the tactical plan and set up will be on Tuesday evening.

[Cheeta]

Other considerations aside, which have already been gone through here, I thought Costa Rico were excellent the other night in what they brought to achieve their goal of poaching a point in Commonwealth.  Excellent understanding and hungry.  Hungry.  Great combination if you want to make yourself hard to beat.  Won a lot of the close combat tests.  However, all that said losing 1-nil flattered them.  

Opinion may change after I rewatch the match with a more analytical eye.

Tuesday is going to be fun.  We're the late start so everyone, Mexicans included, will have a feeling for how the table is shaping out before and during the match.  Lovely.

[BearcatSA]

7 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

Other considerations aside, which have already been gone through here, I thought Costa Rico were excellent the other night in what they brought to achieve their goal of poaching a point in Commonwealth.  Excellent understanding and hungry.  Hungry.  Great combination if you want to make yourself hard to beat.  Won a lot of the close combat tests.  However, all that said losing 1-nil flattered them.  

Opinion may change after I rewatch the match with a more analytical eye.

With the guys available, they played to their best and Suarez's tactics were spot on.  They just don't have a gamechanger or two who can hurt you out of the blue.

We do.

[closetboostie]

2 hours ago, Kadenge said:

the inconsistency is going to happen with a team where the star players are still very young. Davies should be out wide but regardless of where he played on Friday, I suspect he would have played in a similar fashion...trying to do too much. Herdman's hand was a bit forced with Larin, Cav and Ike so it was either Tajon or Davies with David.  We came away with a win and Davies got his first "home" game under his belt and can now settle into a more professional performance on Tuesday.

Exactly this. Davies I'm sure was told to not try to do too much out there but that was my #1 fear going into the match that he would try to do it all himself and put on a show. The coaches can give the 20 year old kid the information but in the end it was almost inevitable it would look like that. I thought it was an excellent statement to the team and maybe a game saving decision to sub him out and hopefully he takes it in the right way. That's where the coaching and communication will come in.

With regard to the tinkering sometimes you have to be willing to try something to find that new level, I'm also hoping Davies is out wide on Tuesday but if you remember against Jamaica Davies couldn't get the ball and was basically a non-factor. They moved him inside against Panama and he was outstanding. It's not going to look the same every time and as was noted above, Costa Rica did what they could to destroy the game. We better get used to it.

[ag futbol]

4 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I think that is overstating the point though.   I am not saying that we need to execute absolutely perfectly every time.  But I still think there have been many long periods of disjointed play in multiple games where we look like we are far less than the sum of our parts.  I know the results have been coming and we are in great shape overall, but it seems like there is another gear that we can play in more consistently than we have been.  And I think that is a realistic expectation give the talent we have.   For example, I don’t expect Davies to play every game like he did against Panama - but I also think it is reasonable to expect that he doesn’t play like he did against CR.   There is a lot of daylight between those two options.   

I agree. As a general thought, we seem to try and field the 11 best individuals rather than the best combination of 11 players.

We might have a ton of good forwards and good wide options but some of those players need to come off the bench. 

[BearcatSA]

28 minutes ago, ag futbol said:

I agree. As a general thought, we seem to try and field the 11 best individuals rather than the best combination of 11 players.

We might have a ton of good forwards and good wide options but some of those players need to come off the bench. 

Exactly.  And this has happened with other higher pedigree NTs and their heralded managers over many years.  You need balance out there, especially in the middle of the park.  That's why getting Osorio starting vs Mexico in lieu of Buchanon or Millar would help do just that.

We have some really great pieces but we also need guys to have that role playing/"whatever it takes" mentality which would make us greater than the sum of our individual parts.  Herdman will be/is/has been obviously hammering that point home.

[Kent]

I've been watching different games from a couple of you. Or maybe my expectations are different. It sounds like some are expecting one way traffic for 90 minutes. We aren't playing Cayman Islands or even Suriname anymore. It's not going to be one way traffic all game. We aren't going to win by 4 or 5 goals every game. I thought we were very good against El Salvador, USA, Mexico, Panama, and quite good against Costa Rica. We didn't create a ton against Costa Rica, but we owned the ball. It's not like we were being torn up or even out played. We were meh against Honduras and Jamaica.

Sure we have had slow starts in several games, but does anybody remember the knock against Herdman was that he couldn't adjust when things went sideways against Haiti in the 2019 Gold Cup. It seems to me if things go bad at any point in the game, it's Herdman's fault. If things go well at any point in a game, it had nothing to do with Herdman.

That being said, the slagging is a lot more subtle now than it used to be, and more rare as well.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Kent

[kacbru]

5 hours ago, Kent said:

That being said, the slagging is a lot more subtle now than it used to be, and more rare as well.

Where is SpecialK? Something, something, little Hobbit, loser, something something.... 

[Kent]

2 hours ago, kacbru said:

Where is SpecialK? Something, something, little Hobbit, loser, something something.... 

I guess if he's got no complaints, he has nothing to say. Maybe he's the opposite of a bandwagon fan? It's only fun when we are losing for him?

[Bison44]

10 hours ago, kacbru said:

Where is SpecialK? Something, something, little Hobbit, loser, something something.... 

HAHA, SpecialK wasnt subtle at all.  Rabid would be the way I would describe him....Plus dont we all tend to RANT more about bad things than good.  I go on and on about my broken dishwasher, but rarely praise my stove which works great.  Life just isnt fair like that.  

[frmr]

7 hours ago, Kent said:

I guess if he's got no complaints, he has nothing to say. Maybe he's the opposite of a bandwagon fan? It's only fun when we are losing for him?

This is the sad thing with some people. The only things they have to say are negative things. Every word that comes out of their mouth is a complaint. Their brains are literally wired to see the worst. It's like Scottish football fans but without the humour. That in itself is a disturbing thought.

[El Hombre]

On 11/14/2021 at 12:42 PM, Cheeta said:

Other considerations aside, which have already been gone through here, I thought Costa Rico were excellent the other night in what they brought to achieve their goal of poaching a point in Commonwealth.  Excellent understanding and hungry.  Hungry.  Great combination if you want to make yourself hard to beat.  Won a lot of the close combat tests.  However, all that said losing 1-nil flattered them. 

I think this is an important point.  I think most were expecting the Gold Cup Costa Rica and not the Costa Rica that narrowly lost 2-1 to the US on an unfortunate own goal in Columbus or the CR that lost 1-0 to Mexico on a penalty.  I think they have shown throughout qualifying that they are an organized, prepared team.  Tough to break down.  If they had someone that could put the ball in the net, they'd be up around where we are.

Our game against them definitely wasn't any worse than any of the other teams that played them in the previous six games.

[BearcatSA]

5 hours ago, El Hombre said:

I think this is an important point.  I think most were expecting the Gold Cup Costa Rica and not the Costa Rica that narrowly lost 2-1 to the US on an unfortunate own goal in Columbus or the CR that lost 1-0 to Mexico on a penalty.  I think they have shown throughout qualifying that they are an organized, prepared team.  Tough to break down.  If they had someone that could put the ball in the net, they'd be up around where we are.

Our game against them definitely wasn't any worse than any of the other teams that played them in the previous six games.

They got the most out of their squad.  Perhaps Navas doesn't drop the cross, but otherwise they played a good game of smash and grab.

[ted]

On 11/14/2021 at 1:31 AM, lamptern said:

Herdman was being cute/over thinking again on Friday. He used two midfielder and put Davies in a wrong pisition. David bailed him out by a lucky goal.

I think the real concern is how it seems to take the first half, of the first game, in each window for our lads to "click". Luckily this time we didn't give up a goal. For a coach that I recognize has done a fantastic job of motivating the team generally, that "first 45" needs to stop happening and I hope we won't see it in the January window.

[rkomar]

Aren't the slow starts really on the players?  What can a manager do if it takes time for the players to start feeling it during the game?  I'm sure they all recognize that an energetic and focused start would be the best, so are they holding back because Herdman didn't scream enough before the game?  I'm genuinely curious to know what Herdman should be doing to fix this problem.  Maybe less is more for this particular case.

[Bison44]

6 minutes ago, rkomar said:

Aren't the slow starts really on the players?  What can a manager do if it takes time for the players to start feeling it during the game?  I'm sure they all recognize that an energetic and focused start would be the best, so are they holding back because Herdman didn't scream enough before the game?  I'm genuinely curious to know what Herdman should be doing to fix this problem.  Maybe less is more for this particular case.

If a coach can instill an attitude, or a brotherhood then he can instill a mentality that we arent going to sit back and let the other team control the first 20minutes of the game..over and over.  I dont know what he needs to do (i'm not the best coach in concacaf)..but it seems like other coaches and teams dont have problems doing it at least some of the time.  Maybe its part of his game plan he doesnt talk to the media about, but since the restart of CMNT games it seems like more times than not we are on our heels, take time to get settled and then pour it on later in the game.  i would hate to come out flat and be down 2 against mex, USA, Jam etc and have to play catch up.   

[GasPed]

3 hours ago, rkomar said:

Aren't the slow starts really on the players?  What can a manager do if it takes time for the players to start feeling it during the game?  I'm sure they all recognize that an energetic and focused start would be the best, so are they holding back because Herdman didn't scream enough before the game?  I'm genuinely curious to know what Herdman should be doing to fix this problem.  Maybe less is more for this particular case.

I think part of the issue is that Herdman likes to tinker.  For instance, yes, I'm sure he practiced with Davies at CAM, but putting it on the field against live opposition is a different thing entirely.  So the guys spend the first 20 minutes trying to figure out how their shiny new formation works (or doesn't) against a real team.  Don't get me wrong - the first 20 minutes is always going to a "feeling out" process - but it's naturally going to be worse when you've had very limited experience with your setup...  

[rkomar]

Maybe they are told to use different formations depending on the opponent's shape, and they are thinking too much at first trying to decipher how they should be playing?

[The Beaver 2.0]

3 hours ago, Bison44 said:

If a coach can instill an attitude, or a brotherhood then he can instill a mentality that we arent going to sit back and let the other team control the first 20minutes of the game..over and over.  I dont know what he needs to do (i'm not the best coach in concacaf)..but it seems like other coaches and teams dont have problems doing it at least some of the time.  Maybe its part of his game plan he doesnt talk to the media about, but since the restart of CMNT games it seems like more times than not we are on our heels, take time to get settled and then pour it on later in the game.  i would hate to come out flat and be down 2 against mex, USA, Jam etc and have to play catch up.   

Yes, but it isn't really the first 20 minutes of the game. Often, it is one or two moments within the first five!!  I don't think we have slow starts, I think we aren't fully switched on, like we kind of don't know what to do tactically right out of the gates.  We get scored on early, then storm back, and then control the game for the most part. This goes all the way back to our loss to the US at the Gold Cup.

I think we should make sure we get first kick, then launch the ball into the Mexican corner and dare the Mexicans to play through us.  That'll get us right into our tactics, and with the ball at least 100 yards from our net.