Herdman new head coach

[BearcatSA]

They (and Panama, for that matter) have also done their homework in prepping for us.  The US fullbacks while the athletic midfield three provided cover and as a result we didn't get the consistent attacking joy needed down the flanks.

[Gian-Luca]

1 hour ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

Reyna set up both goals yesterday and Balogun scored one of them. That's what the U.S. has been missing.

In Hamilton, they had Zardes up top. There's been a massive improvement in the U.S. attack since then. 

They also didn't have Weah in Hamilton, and when we drew with them in Nashville they were using Yedlin and Brooks at the back, who made mistakes we capitalized on. This US team we played last night didn't make any mistakes.

Also, regarding KJ's rant, one of my problems is that he himself said before the Panama match that the US would be favourites against us to win the tourney because they have the most talent and were playing at home, and then he seemed to disregard this completely during his conniption. I get it that it was in the heat of the moment but he and Brennan (who accused the team of not even trying to win) came across like too emotional fanboys rather than objective analysts/commentators. I mean, we don't want robots doing passionless analysis, but some of the stuff they were saying was too emotionally OTT (claiming their opinions were "facts" is a dead giveaway) to the extent that that it hurt the credibility of the more legitimate points they were trying to make. I think everyone can see it was a disappointing performance, and while I don't buy much of what Herdman was saying post-match, I'm not sure coming across as though you want to decapitate him with a buzz saw is going to do you any good.

 

[Bertuzzi44]

A poor or even mediocre Gold Cup should cost Herdman his job. But this is the CSA so who knows.

0-3 and pointless at the WC finals. Poor tactically, especially vs Croatia.
Poor vs the USA in NL finals.

Yes, Herdman has brought us up a level, that is clear. But can we take the next step with him? I'm not so sure. And this is Canada's Golden Generation so let's not waste it. A more proven coach is probably the play here, but alas, this is the CSA so who knows.
 

[toontownman]

People can read what they want to take out of most quotes and happenings over the past week/months. It's a choose you're own adventure. 

Adding Neville/Shaw to the staff =

a) Smart move to freshen, get new perspectives and strengthen our coaches with experienced coaches. 

b)Herdman has clearly run out of ideas and lacks faith in his own ability to take things further forward

Recent performances =

a) Players are tired and other teams have started to figure us out

b) Our player pool is limited

c) Herdman has clearly lost the dressing room

d) all of the above

Herdman publically calling out the CSA =

a) He is clearly frustrated with the CSA not following through with promises and underfunding the programs.

b) He clearly wants to get sacked and move on

c) all of the above

I think Herdman has done much better than most (certainly myself) thought but was always going to reach a ceiling. It's make or break tie now the honeymoon period is looking like it is officially over. Can he evolve or is he limited at the top of his scope? Him sounding off combined with a poor Gold Cup run could put the CSA in an awkward spot. I don't see them getting anyone better in though. 

I do also think the "Brotherhood" runs a fine line between being a positive or becoming a bit exclusive and entitled. Lots are certainly not afraid to sound off as fearlessly as the have shown they can on the pitch. They just need to keep the attitude away and focus it positively and smartly on and off the pitch a bit more. 

[ECW]

12 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

They (and Panama, for that matter) have also done their homework in prepping for us.  The US fullbacks while the athletic midfield three provided cover and as a result we didn't get the consistent attacking joy needed down the flanks.

Yeah, it seemed as if we were expecting Berhalter’s approach. Instead it was more pragmatic from them. I don’t think “under preparing and overachieving” is ever going to. be likely to beat that team, especially away. Against a Berhalter coached team sans Reyna we might look a bit better. 

Vitoria the full 90 would have helped avoid the bomb scare back line (and in turn helped us be more composed going forward) but I don’t think it would have been the difference. Also, Johnson should not have been playing, he’s played 110 matches or some such the past season and has an ankle injury. That we needed to play him and are relying on a 35 year old central defender says a lot about our weak central defender pool. (Even if 35 year old central defenders are not unheard of in the top leagues.) 

[hodgkiss]

The USA is ranked 13th in the world and when Canada plays them in the USA for every single tournament, it's a bit ridiculous to think that we are going to beat them easily. Can we beat them on the a good day? Absolutely. Can we beat them in Canada - we have and we should take at least a point in most cases. When we play them in the USA, it's always a bit tougher right? As passionate fans of our team, we demand the best but we are still progressing by adding more players to the pool and getting more experience on a bigger stage. Even from a population perspective, they are about 10X larger than Canada so they obviously have many more players to choose from as well. 

I know we all want to win and we all want to collect trophies but I would much rather win a World Cup vs winning a Gold Cup or a Nations League Cup that are constantly played in the USA (providing a biased outcome).

On a good day, we score 3 of the shots that went 5 meters over the net and this is a completely different conversation...

[Ottawafan]

1 hour ago, hodgkiss said:

The USA is ranked 13th in the world and when Canada plays them in the USA for every single tournament, it's a bit ridiculous to think that we are going to beat them easily. Can we beat them on the a good day? Absolutely. Can we beat them in Canada - we have and we should take at least a point in most cases. When we play them in the USA, it's always a bit tougher right? As passionate fans of our team, we demand the best but we are still progressing by adding more players to the pool and getting more experience on a bigger stage. Even from a population perspective, they are about 10X larger than Canada so they obviously have many more players to choose from as well. 

I know we all want to win and we all want to collect trophies but I would much rather win a World Cup vs winning a Gold Cup or a Nations League Cup that are constantly played in the USA (providing a biased outcome).

On a good day, we score 3 of the shots that went 5 meters over the net and this is a completely different conversation...

Canada had a few chance inside and around the 6 that should have found a better fate.  Flip side is so did the Americans with at least one being cleared off the line.

[SoCalTransport]

12 hours ago, toontownman said:

People can read what they want to take out of most quotes and happenings over the past week/months. It's a choose you're own adventure. 

Adding Neville/Shaw to the staff =

a) Smart move to freshen, get new perspectives and strengthen our coaches with experienced coaches. 

b)Herdman has clearly run out of ideas and lacks faith in his own ability to take things further forward

Recent performances =

a) Players are tired and other teams have started to figure us out

b) Our player pool is limited

c) Herdman has clearly lost the dressing room

d) all of the above

Herdman publically calling out the CSA =

a) He is clearly frustrated with the CSA not following through with promises and underfunding the programs.

b) He clearly wants to get sacked and move on

c) all of the above

I think Herdman has done much better than most (certainly myself) thought but was always going to reach a ceiling. It's make or break tie now the honeymoon period is looking like it is officially over. Can he evolve or is he limited at the top of his scope? Him sounding off combined with a poor Gold Cup run could put the CSA in an awkward spot. I don't see them getting anyone better in though. 

I do also think the "Brotherhood" runs a fine line between being a positive or becoming a bit exclusive and entitled. Lots are certainly not afraid to sound off as fearlessly as the have shown they can on the pitch. They just need to keep the attitude away and focus it positively and smartly on and off the pitch a bit more. 

Herdman is right, Trudeau is hemorrhaging money on climate change and a proxy war in Ukraine. That offers no benefit to Canadians.

Loan some money to Canadian soccer, so they can properly train, and properly develop their talent. Have the money so they can play elite teams in friendlies.

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, hodgkiss said:

The USA is ranked 13th in the world and when Canada plays them in the USA for every single tournament, it's a bit ridiculous to think that we are going to beat them easily. Can we beat them on the a good day? Absolutely. Can we beat them in Canada - we have and we should take at least a point in most cases. When we play them in the USA, it's always a bit tougher right? As passionate fans of our team, we demand the best but we are still progressing by adding more players to the pool and getting more experience on a bigger stage. Even from a population perspective, they are about 10X larger than Canada so they obviously have many more players to choose from as well. 

I know we all want to win and we all want to collect trophies but I would much rather win a World Cup vs winning a Gold Cup or a Nations League Cup that are constantly played in the USA (providing a biased outcome).

On a good day, we score 3 of the shots that went 5 meters over the net and this is a completely different conversation...

For me it wasn't about the fact that we lost.  The US played very well, have added key pieces, and are expected to win this game as favourites.  My criticisms stem from the way we lost.  We were poor individually, collectively we weren't cohesive, and overall we were a shadow of the team that qualified for the WC.   can accept losing.  I can't accept that sort of limp, uninventive  performance given our current talent pool. 

[dyslexic nam]

1 minute ago, SoCalTransport said:

Herdman is right, Trudeau is hemorrhaging money on climate change and a proxy war in Ukraine. That offers no benefit to Canadians.

Loan some money to Canadian soccer, so they can properly train, and properly develop their talent. Have the money so they can play elite teams in friendlies.

 

"And the award for awkward political segue goes to..." 

[dyslexic nam]

This is my somewhat cynical take on our current coaching situation.

Objectively, Herdman has to be given credit for our accomplishments.  First WC qualification in decades, heightened expectations to the point that we now expect to make regional finals (and compete in them), etc,  So, kudos for that.  

But I also think there is a small footnote for some of those accomplishments considering the squad he did it with.  One could argue that a competent international coach, with that sort of talent at his disposal (at the time of WCQ we had arguably the top 2 players in the region and a very solid supporting cast), SHOULD be able to qualify for the WC, or reach a regional tournament final.  Put another way, are we convinced that a guy like Zambrano couldn't have done the same thing with this specific team?  So while Herdman definitely receives a passing grade for our newfound success, I am unsure how much additional weight it should be given in light of the generational talents that other Canadian coaches have not had access to.  

Tactically, I think there have been clear examples of us getting outcoached. The WC showed us examples of this, and as much as the V collective may not be the final word on tactical acumen, I do put a fair bit of weight in the fact that hordes of us have all collectively seen multiple examples where tactical decisions seem to have been suboptimal.  Lineup decisions and formations have been heavily questioned, and then we ultimately see us underperform for reasons that were quite apparent.  I think it is fair to say that tactics isn't his strong suit and that his real strength was in team-building and motivation.  Unfortunately, when you get to a certain point, I think the relative importance of tactics vs motivation start to swing in favour of the former.  I also think we have crossed that threshold. 

Also unfortunately, in terms of motivation I think there are some questions starting to be raised.  The Ted-talks did a great job of building fraternity and getting the brick-wall-smashing vibe going within the squad.  WC qualification was a shared, generational stretch goal that everyone was willing to fight like hell for.  And Herdman was very effective at getting that buy-in.  That was 100% clear from the players.  My concern now is that I don't think that sort of energy can be maintained indefinitely.  We may even be seeing the shine wearing a bit thin on that approach at this point.  Guys like KJ and Atiba, who know a helluva lot about the game, are starting to publicly cast some doubts on the current situation, and the players sure didn't look like they were running through walls last game.,  Some of them weren't even running after their marks.  

I don't want to be unfair to JH - and historically I don't think I have been.  I expressed some skepticism at his initial hire, but it was about him being untested in the men's game and the recognition that it is a different environment with some different considerations.  And for the record, I think that skepticism was fair.  I also was converted and gave him credit when he delivered success during WCQ.  Hell, he overdelivered by being top of the region.  Absolutely well done.  But there is still a question about his ability to take us to that next level.  

The one big elephant in the room is whether or not we could reasonably attract/afford someone who can take us further, without losing the benefits that Herdman definitely does bring to the table.  I often joke about Ancelotti but he is a pipe dream.  And Hedrman may not be perfect but he has overseen an era of substantial progress and success.  Are we confident we can do better?
 

[costarg]

13 hours ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

A poor or even mediocre Gold Cup should cost Herdman his job. But this is the CSA so who knows.

0-3 and pointless at the WC finals. Poor tactically, especially vs Croatia.
Poor vs the USA in NL finals.

Yes, Herdman has brought us up a level, that is clear. But can we take the next step with him? I'm not so sure. And this is Canada's Golden Generation so let's not waste it. A more proven coach is probably the play here, but alas, this is the CSA so who knows.
 

Add the WC warm-up matches to the list as well, underperformed there too.  It hasn't been the same vibe and intensity since we qualified for the WC.  Not the mention the ridiculous strategies.

[Obinna]

good post @dyslexic nam

I haven't weighed in much on the final loss, and maybe this is not the best thread to say this, but I think all of the hot takes and emotional reactions from fans and pundits, all of it can be boiled down to one simple fact: the USA are more talented and are in a great moment right now. 

The talent and gulf in depth is something we all know, so that part of my take is a bit of a "duh", but overall the USA are not getting enough credit on the Canadian side of the media. The more sophisticated talking heads have been complementary, of course, but I watched a Sportsnet take and TSN (de Guzman) take this morning - and yeaaah.

They can say that Canada didn't get up for it, they didn't set up correctly, they didn't do XYZ, but none of this can be considered in a vaccum. It's all relative to a USA side that is firing on all cyliders, that got a massive upgrade up front, that played Gio Reyna in the right spot, and were buoyed by a complete dismantling of their arch rival Mexico. 

I disagree with all the takes out there that our boys weren't "ready to fight" or were not prepared to play a final. And the reason I disagree with it is because it's all comparative. After beating Mexico in that way, there was no way we were going to come out with an emotional charge to match, and to call that "unready" is not really acknowledging what we were up against, in my opinon. 

In some ways, the reverse was true in WCQ. In Hamilton we came out with more heart and spirit and that won us the game, without Davies and Eustaquio, and the USA were out fought and out classed, but like us they had their chances and they did fight, it just wasn't enough to counteract the high we were on at that point in the cycle, coming off the Iceteca last window and running the table at that point. Emotionally we were unstoppable because we were creating history (qualifying for first WC) and that's where the USA are right now (reclaiming the crown in CONCACAF). 

So I take our loss with that perspective. Disappointed obviously, and I am fine with questions being asked, or anger about the loss, since these things are what's needed to improve, but collectively we are verging on overreaction I feel. I haven't went to the game thread, so I don't really know what the tempreture is on the fourm, but just in the media I feel the takes can be a bit more measured and a bit more respectful towards not just the talent of the USA, but the MOMENT they are in right now.

I have yet to hear anyone from the Canada side focus on what it means emotionally for the USA to beat Mexico that way, and how that played a role in the final. Not trying to make excuses, but that's just the reality (as Herdman would say). 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Obinna

[Ivan]

Good point @Obinna.  The Americans I talked to on the way back to the hotel were much more pumped about their dismantling of Mexico than they were of beating us.  Regarding us, they were much more respectful ("you guys played well", "you have a great team, great players", etc, etc.)

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, Ivan said:

Good point @Obinna.  The Americans I talked to on the way back to the hotel were much more pumped about their dismantling of Mexico than they were of beating us.  Regarding us, they were much more respectful ("you guys played well", "you have a great team, great players", etc, etc.)

Interesting to hear and sort of reflects the comments I have been seeing from the Americans online. They have been far more complementary about our performance than we have been toward ourselves, and it seems genuine to me. It has also been said (by both teams) that winning in the semi means nothing if you don't win the final - and there was no way this USMNT was going to let that historic win against Mexico count for nothing. I am pretty sure they've never beat them by 3 goals in a competitive match, let alone in such a fashion. 

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Interesting to hear and sort of reflects the comments I have been seeing from the Americans online. They have been far more complementary about our performance than we have been toward ourselves, and it seems genuine to me. It has also been said (by both teams) that winning in the semi means nothing if you don't win the final - and there was no way this USMNT was going to let that historic win against Mexico count for nothing. I am pretty sure they've never beat them by 3 goals in a competitive match, let alone in such a fashion. 

Very classy coach in Callaghan as well. I'm sure it rubs off.  This kinda thing starts at the top.

[Cadeau]

I love Herdman and I acknowledge that the americans are better than us, but come on, you gotta get Vittoria and Buchanan on after the first half. I think Hercules Gomez said it best, Herdman's shine has worn off since qualifying.

[GasPed]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

Very classy coach in Callaghan as well. I'm sure it rubs off.  This kinda thing starts at the top.

I was impressed with Pulisic's interview after the match too.  He went out of his way to compliment Canada at least twice on the game.  Even when he was prompted "So I guess this makes the US the new kings of CONCACAF?" his response was something like "Oh, I don't know - we were lucky enough to get a result tonight against a really good team."  No bulletin board material, no in-your-face bravado - yeah, it's bland and it doesn't generate views, but I also thought it was really respectful.  My opinion of him went up (admittedly it wasn't very high to begin with). 

[theaub]

I mean end of day I think the problem is that when you think of 'continental final' etc you think of neutral site, but this was all in all a US home game, right down to us having to fight to even get a supporter section in the first place and not being allowed any drums etc in while AO were allowed.

So we got deservedly outclassed 2-0 away to the US, just like they got deservedly outclassed 2-0 the last two times they came to Canada.  Meh. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by theaub

[frmr]

1 hour ago, Cadeau said:

I love Herdman and I acknowledge that the americans are better than us, but come on, you gotta get Vittoria and Buchanan on after the first half. I think Hercules Gomez said it best, Herdman's shine has worn off since qualifying.

This is pretty much how I feel. I've been a big supporter of Herdman pretty much from day one, but he's certainly made some mistakes in the WC and since. I'm hoping he can bounce back and it can all be chalked up as merely a blip on an otherwise upwards trajectory. I don't fault him at all for calling out Canada Soccer, in fact I applaud it, but the tension there isn't helping matters. I hope the rumours of him losing the dressing room are just that.

Edited June 20, 2023 by frmr

[GasPed]

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

I have yet to hear anyone from the Canada side focus on what it means emotionally for the USA to beat Mexico that way, and how that played a role in the final. Not trying to make excuses, but that's just the reality (as Herdman would say). 

100% on your entire post, but this part here is also important from a measuring stick perspective too.  The US may have beaten us, but they absolutely thumped Mexico.  At no point in that game did it appear that Mexico had a chance - they were dominated from start to finish.  Admittedly the US was down two starters against us, but we were far more competitive than Mexico.  So yes, we were clearly second best, but I think it's fair to say that Mexico was clearly third best (they were also unimpressive against Panama).  And I think that's a good indication of our overall talent level too.

[BrennanFan]

It's time for a change.  

[Floortom]

Herdman got too much credit during the good times (WCQ) and is getting too much blame now.

The fact of the matter, and I said it at the time but no one here wanted to listen, we were extremely lucky during Qualfiying. We massively outperformed our expected goals difference (Borjan was a wall amongst other factors) and these things have since reversed / normalized. 
 

Good luck thinking the CSA has any capability to bring in an upgrade over Herdman with its budget and general incompetence.  

[Watchmen]

I think it needs to be made clear - it's not that Herdman made mistakes during the WC. Stepping up a level, everyone will. It's that we were all looking for signs of progress from him as a manager at the next available opportunity, and he didn't really show any. It's one thing for players to not have an understanding of what they each need to do on set pieces or how where they need to be to defend a counter attack; it's another to have the wrong players in those situations in the first place.

[frmr]

44 minutes ago, Floortom said:

Herdman got too much credit during the good times (WCQ) and is getting too much blame now.

The fact of the matter, and I said it at the time but no one here wanted to listen, we were extremely lucky during Qualfiying. We massively outperformed our expected goals difference (Borjan was a wall amongst other factors) and these things have since reversed / normalized. 
 

Good luck thinking the CSA has any capability to bring in an upgrade over Herdman with its budget and general incompetence.  

Exactly this. Change for the sake of change is stupid, and akin to throwing shit at a wall. If there is someone who is clearly better, who is willing to work within the financial constraints which Herdman has mostly excelled in, who is available and willing to make the move, and who is willing to work with the dumpster fire that is Canada Soccer, then by all means. But I don't think that person exists. The managers that we want, we can't get. The managers that we can get are going to be lateral moves if we're lucky.

I mean, we didn't have success at the World Cup in the group of death, and we lost a final to an excellent USA. That's not grounds for dismissal.

Edited June 20, 2023 by frmr