Herdman new head coach

[Free kick]

3 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Frankly the only thing that I was worried about was the immediate impact on the players if Herdman left Canada for NZ. But if I take out that aspect, there is otherwise a slight bit of disappointment (even though the article originally quoted had me a bit suspicious from the get go) that it wasn't true, because I do think that we need to up our tactical game for 2026 based on the highly questionable coaching tactics and mistakes we saw at the World Cup. If Herdman can do this (raise his own tactical game to a higher level), then great, but that remains to be seen.

There were some mistakes in Qatar.  But all those mistakes were fixable or can be attributed to lack of experience of playing at the WC finals.  There were also mistakes by players and again one might track that mostly to lack of experience.    We have heard nothing suggesting that he has lost the  players (or the room) and these are the things that count the most in my opinion.    I could say the same about his player section for starters at the WC.  But overall (in WCQ and WQ) compared to all the coaches prior to Herdman,  he was the one whom I have had the fewest issues in regards to squad selections.

Glad he is staying for these reason:  

1) A coach is judged by his/her track record and that of the team(s) he has coached.  And nobody has ever matched his track record and taken us to the same heights.

2) This is a time for the program to build on what was achieved so far and not to start tearing things down and restarting again.   That's what you risk doing with new coach.   This is a time for stability, not change.  That doesnt mean that we need to be satisfied and content and stand pat.  

3) I Don't think that there exists the resources to hire a first rate coach anyways.  As someone mentioned earlier, we would probably end up with a recycled coach who came on the cheap. 

4) I don't trust the decision makers to make the right choice anyways.    

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Free kick

[dyslexic nam]

33 minutes ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

Wasn't/isn't he still under contract? Until like 2026? Isn't all this a bit unprofessional by JH?

He definitely has an ego.

I doubt it is a commitment without any chance of release.  Contracts are usually  extensive legal documents for a reason.

And in fairness Herdman doesn’t seem to have done anything unprofessional - at least nothing we have solid proof of.  He quickly came out reiterating his support for CSA and emphasized his intention to see things through to 2026 - and he claims to have been taken by surprise by the news.  Some of that may be a bit whitewashed and there may have been a bit of tactical stuff going on while he and the CSA worked on some improved terms, but I can’t really say that he did anything unprofessional.

[Cheeta]

Bah.  A red herring, if that, to provoke content for our little footie sub-culture now that the transfer window has closed with an underwhelming "bang" for Canadian soccer supporters.

JH

"Sorta quiet out there in the V-verse these day isn't it?"

Wheeler

"Right?  We're never going to be, never going to be a mature footballing nation until we have a completely gonzo sporting tabloid press in this country.  At least to some degree."

JH

"Sad as it is to say, you're right."

Wheeler 

"Say, you liked your time down south, in Kiwiland didn't you?"

JH

"It was smashing.  Wonderful place. Absolutely changed my life."

Wheeler

"Hold on.  I know a guy."

 

[Sal333]

13 hours ago, Treppy2 said:

Apologies for the crappy Photoshop work, as I can do better. Just needed to concentrate on real work today so churned this out in a hurry.

Herdman's gesture doesn't suggest Michelangelo's David to me. It's more like Herdman ordering the old man in the sky, "Get off my cloud, you SOB."

[Mattd97]

14 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I doubt it is a commitment without any chance of release.  Contracts are usually  extensive legal documents for a reason.

And in fairness Herdman doesn’t seem to have done anything unprofessional - at least nothing we have solid proof of.  He quickly came out reiterating his support for CSA and emphasized his intention to see things through to 2026 - and he claims to have been taken by surprise by the news.  Some of that may be a bit whitewashed and there may have been a bit of tactical stuff going on while he and the CSA worked on some improved terms, but I can’t really say that he did anything unprofessional.

Yeah I'm confused what Herdman did here other than put out a statement saying he was committed to the Canadian men's team?

[hodgkiss]

So, did Herdman have a foot out the door and the CSA caved in and paid him at the last minute - causing JH to release a statement to calm everyone down? Or did the 'insiders' including people on this board with 'reliable sources' have it all wrong and it was blown way out of proportion?

 

[The Real Marc]

Most likely his other offers weren't all that great but New Zealand was just enough to get the CSA to meet him part-way.

[InglewoodJack]

Herdman has an agent, and the offer apparently came through an intermediary. It could've been as simple as the agent knowing Herdman is keeping an open mind for other opportunities, the agent knows what Herdman's target salary + situation is, someone tied to NZMNT probably reached out to his agent and was like "Would John come coach us for X salary if we gave him the freedom to do Y with our program" and the agent told him yeah, he would, and NZ's CEO took that as Herdman agreeing to the terms.

[Bison44]

I guess we'll wait and see.  If CSA comes out in 6 months with a big renegotiation deal with herdman for big salary maybe he was using these offers to leverage a new deal.  Which wou/ldnt surprise me, how did he get this job in the first place?   Honestly, other than more money what could NZ offer him that he is not getting here, someone was saying that NZ paper pushers are as screwed up as ours? 

[Unnamed Trialist]

24 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Herdman has an agent, and the offer apparently came through an intermediary. It could've been as simple as the agent knowing Herdman is keeping an open mind for other opportunities, the agent knows what Herdman's target salary + situation is, someone tied to NZMNT probably reached out to his agent and was like "Would John come coach us for X salary if we gave him the freedom to do Y with our program" and the agent told him yeah, he would, and NZ's CEO took that as Herdman agreeing to the terms.

Basically, this is how it works with slight variations.

It's a bit embarrassing for Herdman to use New Zealand when every player leveraged UP after the World Cup, not down. He was in NZ a a young man, it's like your spouse threatening to go back to mother's.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

...someone tied to NZMNT probably reached out to his agent and was like "Would John come coach us for X salary if we gave him the freedom to do Y with our program" and the agent told him yeah, he would, and NZ's CEO took that as Herdman agreeing to the terms.

Maybe, but have seen it claimed that things only stalled because of a personal issue that would have stopped a move to NZ until March. No idea if that was accurate but at that point John Herdman probably has to be more in the loop than the scenario you are suggesting. Think what's potentially interesting is how did this leak to the media and why, given the way John Herdman made a point of not denying that there was an offer from NZ (along with others apparently) in his statement. A case of putting the bat signal on and saying come and get me, while not risking the three years he has left on his contract if nothing he views as better than his current gig comes along?

[InglewoodJack]

12 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Maybe, but have seen it claimed that things only stalled because of a personal issue that would have stopped a move to NZ until March. No idea if that was accurate but at that point John Herdman probably has to be more in the loop than the scenario you are suggesting. Think what's potentially interesting is how did this leak to the media and why, given the way John Herdman made a point of not denying that there was an offer from NZ (along with others apparently) in his statement. A case of putting the bat signal on and saying come and get me, while not risking the three years he has left on his contract if nothing he views as better than his current gig comes along?

I don't think he's out of the loop, but clients will typically give agents a general idea of what they're looking for in their career, and it's the agent's job to go out and get those offers. Herdman probably had a conversation with his agent, told him he's open to a move, and told him the parameters of the type of deal he's open to, and so the agent went out, fielded offers, probably gave interested parties an idea of what it would take Herdman to sign with them, NZ agreed to those terms, Herdman's agent probably let JH know about the offer, and as he was mulling it over, the rumor was leaked to the press, the press reached out to the CEO, who was not involved in the conversation, CEO says that Herdman agreed to terms because his agent verbally did, it was a misunderstanding, and once Canada caught wind, they probably spoke to Herdman, told him he's under contract and they'd go after him for taking meetings without their consent, so he came out, said he never accepted an offer, because he didn't.

This is all heavy speculation, it's possible he's straight up lying, or canada told him they'd renego his contract, or whatever. I work at an agency and regularly manage contracts on behalf of clients. Not in sports, but in order to do my job, I need to know what my client is looking for, and I need some freedom to basically negotiate on their behalf, and take offers back to the client once I've had the other party broadly agree to our terms. "Yeah my client would go for that" vs. "Yeah my client has agreed to that" is a very different thing, but to an eager third party, they are one and the same.

I do think Herdman is a builder and I'm more inclined to believe he'll stay in the international circuit vs. go to a club team, of which I'm certain he has many offers, but I doubt that the NZ offer is the one he's going to leverage as a power play with Canada. I think it's more the fact that NZ, similar to Canada, is not as "professional" as many other organizations, so it'll be easier to get leaks out of. I mean, their CEO came out and confirmed the details before a deal was in place- that's shitty business plain and simple. Local press was giving Sam Piette shit because he confirmed the Torres trade mere hours before it actually happened, by accident, in a candid interview, so I'm inclined to believe that if the CEO of a company is confirming deals so early in the process, they likely have weak controls on the information that slips out of their camp.

[Watchmen]

Heard Peter Galindo on the Vancouver morning show today. Described Herdman as a greater builder and that we don't know if he can work with the finished product yet. I think that's fair. And with that in mind, I'm pretty much withholding further judgement until after the Copa America. Frankly, I think if the Copa goes poorly too then he'll start to lose the players. So, we'll see in 2 years.

[Bison44]

Not even sure about the builder part either to be honest.  He is a first class motivator though, he got those guys to buy into whatever he is selling.   Whether that will survive another cycle is big question, he might be the kind of guy that needs to keep moving.  Come in and turn around the attitude of a club for quick improvements and then plateau. 

 

[Watchmen]

58 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Not even sure about the builder part either to be honest.  He is a first class motivator though, he got those guys to buy into whatever he is selling.   Whether that will survive another cycle is big question, he might be the kind of guy that needs to keep moving.  Come in and turn around the attitude of a club for quick improvements and then plateau. 

 

Yeah, I think I include this in the "builder" description.  As in, rebuilding some confidence in the program. Convincing dual nationals to chose Canada, etc. And agree, there's a ceiling on that. So it's now up to him to show he can do more.

[InglewoodJack]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

Not even sure about the builder part either to be honest.  He is a first class motivator though, he got those guys to buy into whatever he is selling.   Whether that will survive another cycle is big question, he might be the kind of guy that needs to keep moving.  Come in and turn around the attitude of a club for quick improvements and then plateau. 

 

Every program he's been a part of has improved between when he arrived there and when he departed. I think the builder reputation also has to do with the fact that Herdman is an archetypal "professional" manager in the sense that he trained as a manager since his early 20s, he wasn't a former player or someone involved in the upper echelons- he's effectively a soccer intellectual.

I think there are real concerns about whether he can coach with the world's best, but also, I think lack of experience is real- Mexico and US non inclusive, he's never coached against elite teams until this past world cup, at least teams that are much more elite than us.

I think if and when he does leave us, I'd like to see him become a Gareth Southgate apprentice with England. I think he needs experience managing players of that quality, and having so many weapons at his disposal. If he can combine his intellectualism with the experience and respect that comes with coaching top teams, I think he can really step up into a higher tier of jobs one day.

[Bison44]

Well when I think of a builder, especially a guy who has the keys to the entire program I expect a bit more than improving just the senior team results and confidence.  If he really was building, I would have hoped he would square away the u-17, u-20, olympic programs a bit.  If we put the effort into making the youth teams more organized, professional and basically paid attention too, we would get more comitments, earlier from duals and really start to BUILD the program from the base up, leave a legacy. If the senior team starts infighting or the chemistry falls apart when he goes, what did he actually build that will last??  Holger got us the gold cup but it didnt translate into  "building" the program very much.  

[InglewoodJack]

12 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Well when I think of a builder, especially a guy who has the keys to the entire program I expect a bit more than improving just the senior team results and confidence.  If he really was building, I would have hoped he would square away the u-17, u-20, olympic programs a bit.  If we put the effort into making the youth teams more organized, professional and basically paid attention too, we would get more comitments, earlier from duals and really start to BUILD the program from the base up, leave a legacy. If the senior team starts infighting or the chemistry falls apart when he goes, what did he actually build that will last??  Holger got us the gold cup but it didnt translate into  "building" the program very much.  

I agree with this, and I guess this is where it's tough four outsiders to see how real that building truly is. Herdman can push all he wants, but if there's no budget for camps, nothing to entice kids to come play for us, etc., only so much we can do.

[N1ckbr0wn]

Seems like NZ journalists are doubling down... apparently JH applied for the job several months ago (my heart tells me during the debacle with CSA when the boys were in Vancouver), and truly had a verbal agreement (as per president of NZF). Add the fact that his son Jay switched to the NZ youth teams around the same time... Something isnt adding up.

Unfortunately i lost the post where the kiwi journalist was talking about it, i will source it when i find it. This whole situation is chaotic

[kacbru]

49 minutes ago, N1ckbr0wn said:

Seems like NZ journalists are doubling down... apparently JH applied for the job several months ago (my heart tells me during the debacle with CSA when the boys were in Vancouver), and truly had a verbal agreement (as per president of NZF). Add the fact that his son Jay switched to the NZ youth teams around the same time... Something isnt adding up.

Unfortunately i lost the post where the kiwi journalist was talking about it, i will source it when i find it. This whole situation is chaotic

This is from the story before Herdman came out with his tweet confirming that he wasn't going anywhere.  Either Herdman or NZF are not telling a straight story...

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2023/02/football-canada-s-john-herdman-emerges-as-leading-candidate-for-all-whites-head-coaching-role.html 

Former Football Ferns coach John Herdman has been identified as the preferred candidate to become the next All Whites coach.

Newshub understands the 47-year-old has agreed terms, although contracts haven't been signed and his appointment cannot yet be considered a done deal. 

Herdman would be in line to replace former coach Danny Hay, who was asked to re-apply for his job, after the defeat to Costa Rica in last year's World Cup intercontinental playoff, but chose not to pursue another term.

NZ Football has announced the All Whites will kick off their 2026 cycle with two home games against China in March. 

Those matches will be overseen by interim head coach Darren Bazeley, after "the leading candidate for the permanent All Whites head coach role had to be called upon to help manage a family health issue, meaning they weren’t able to take up the position ahead of these fixtures".

While it’s unclear what factors could scupper the deal, prominent football sources described Herdman as "the clear top pick" for NZF officials, after completing a thorough recruitment process. 

While he won't comment specifically on Herdman, chief executive Andrew Pragnell has told Newshub the preferred candidate has agreed terms and was "100 percent" on board to take up the role, before a personal situation put a hold on the process.

[kacbru]

Here's a more complete story: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/football-canada-coach-john-herdman-turns-down-all-whites-job/ZQ447DO5NJGMVNO2Y7MG2BXOXY/

It says that Herdman applied for the role, which suggests he was playing a much more active role in searching out other opportunities...

[The Beaver 2.0]

Too soon to tell, what with all the rampant speculation and lack of confirmed detail, but how come I'm getting a less than good feeling about Herdman at the moment?  (Maybe I am biased against him, but I don't think so.)  What are we missing here?  Did Herdman feel like he was on the outs with the CSA? Or that he was not getting the support--compensation?--he deserved for achieving what he did the past couple of years?  Did he look long and hard at the CSA and determine that there was no future for him in Canada, not even over the short term? Or that the CSA under its current leadership was determined to shit the bed--as it almost always does--at a moment in history when it has more going for it than at any other time that I can recall?  Was he jumping ship to save his hide, improve his lot in life, or avoid the slings and arrows of plying your trade for an incompetent football association? Or was he getting bored? Maybe he felt he'd ticked all the major boxes and needed a new challenge. He's still more to learn, but what if that learning isn't the sort that interests him? He's the kind of guy who comes into an organization to turn it around, but not necessarily the guy to hold its hand to the promise land. 

I got a helluva lot more questions than I do answers at this point.

[SF]

Agree, lots of questions here.  I am inclined, however, to give Herdman the benefit of the doubt. Given what we know (and probably a whole lot of what we don't know), my guess is that the CSA is an awful employer. The toll that can take on your job and life satisfaction can be enormous.

[The Beaver 2.0]

7 minutes ago, SF said:

Agree, lots of questions here.  I am inclined, however, to give Herdman the benefit of the doubt. Given what we know (and probably a whole lot of what we don't know), my guess is that the CSA is an awful employer. The toll that can take on your job and life satisfaction can be enormous.

I am certainly reserving judgement. 

[The Ref]

No doubt that Herdman is now more experienced that before Qatar.  Now with that exposure plus seeing the real live performance of his players in front of serious contenders, Herdman will have more gas in the tank to better things.  I would not be surprised if he felt uneasy with the CSA after Qatar.  The CSA can't be trusted and I would not put anything past them.