WCQ: Third Round - Window 2 (October 7-13, 2021)

[PegCityCam]

Hard to believe some of the research that suggests arriving just before an athletic event at elevation is the better option than even just 3 or 4 days prior to get acclimatized.

Here's my own experience: Elevation sucks. During a trip through Central and South America I had to adjust many times to higher elevations in places like La Paz, Quito and Machu Picchu. It hits you basically as soon as you arrive. I noticed it even while walking for the first few days. Basically, I had ZERO desire to do anything strenuous during that initial acclimatization phase. Obviously I'm no elite athlete but at the time I was an avid hiker/mountain biker and without those first few days to adjust I was basically useless. Even the one time I went to Denver for a snowboard trip it took a day or two before my legs didn't feel like jello. 

I can't imagine arriving at elevation and then immediately having to do perform at the highest level, no pun intended. Even just to get used to the climate, field conditions, get mentally prepped etc. it just makes sense to get there early. Anyways, just some thoughts.

[CanadaFan123]

Are there not ways to acclimatize before physically being there? I’m talking masks etc. 

You can’t tell me that Mexicans are going to have a physical advantage though they may have the mental advantage and ball possession plus the home crowd will certainly help. 

[jtpc]

I'm setting my expectations at 4 points from these 3 matches. I think an away point (most likely in Jamaica) and a home win would be a successful window. Anything above 4 would be fantastic, but I think 4 keeps us nicely on track for that target range of 18-23 points.

[Cblake]

59 minutes ago, PegCityCam said:

Hard to believe some of the research that suggests arriving just before an athletic event at elevation is the better option than even just 3 or 4 days prior to get acclimatized.

Here's my own experience: Elevation sucks. During a trip through Central and South America I had to adjust many times to higher elevations in places like La Paz, Quito and Machu Picchu. It hits you basically as soon as you arrive. I noticed it even while walking for the first few days. Basically, I had ZERO desire to do anything strenuous during that initial acclimatization phase. Obviously I'm no elite athlete but at the time I was an avid hiker/mountain biker and without those first few days to adjust I was basically useless. Even the one time I went to Denver for a snowboard trip it took a day or two before my legs didn't feel like jello. 

I can't imagine arriving at elevation and then immediately having to do perform at the highest level, no pun intended. Even just to get used to the climate, field conditions, get mentally prepped etc. it just makes sense to get there early. Anyways, just some thoughts.

I have read that before that is you can get in with enough to to acclimate, its best to get in there just arriving right before it is the way to do. Having never done anything close to this I am have no idea on this, but I am sure there varying opinions on it. 

[Free kick]

15 hours ago, PegCityCam said:

Hard to believe some of the research that suggests arriving just before an athletic event at elevation is the better option than even just 3 or 4 days prior to get acclimatized.

Yes.  That is what i have read.  The science suggest that you either arrive five days before and acclimatize.  Or or play immediately or as soon as possible after arriving.   

A few years back, several south american countries including argentina had petitioned FIFA to disallow matches in La Paz Bolivia (or maybe even Quito, cant recall) on the grounds that it presented a serious risk to player’s health.   They had science on their side and presented a good case.  Unfortunately, as expected,  FIFA rejected the request on teh grounds that?  Well who knows.    
 

Mexico lost 2-1 to costa rica at Azteca in 2001.  That was the only loss in the last 30 years and the only loss ever in an official fifa match.  I dont think that they even lost at azteca in the 1986 WC finals as they may have been eliminated at another locale.  Yes, they are good side or the best side in the region,   but its the altitude of Azteca that is the biggest contributing factor.  
 

edit:  mexico was actaully eliminated in the 1986 WC in the quarter finals against a stacked German squad.  And it was on penalties. And yes, it was not at Azteca but rather a sea level city.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Free kick

[Strait Red]

This is interesting 

 

[Free kick]

I guess the point i am making is:  nobody is suggesting go into Mexico and tank.  But you cant treat all three matches the same with the so called “Go for it” attitude that someone mentioned earlier.   There is a squad you need to field for the “Go for it” games and a squad for what i call the “Containment” games.  Or the “minimize the damage” games.   To protect our nice goal diff of +3,  the containment game plan and squad would be the most prudent option in Mexico city.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Free kick

[dyslexic nam]

15 minutes ago, Free kick said:

I guess the point i am making is:  nobody is suggesting go into Mexico and tank.  But you cant treat all three matches the same with the so called “Go for it” attitude that someone mentioned earlier.   There is squad you need to field for the “Go for it” games and a squad for what i call the “Containment” games.  Or the “minimize the damage” games.   There are different squads and players that you play for “go for it” versus the “containment” games.  To protect our nice goal diff of +3,  the containment game plan and squad would be the most prudent option in Mexico city.

This is what I have been saying.  Preserving/rotating some of our key players against Mexico so that we can go all out for the last two does not equate to throwing the game.  It is just a conservative approach to the game, in the context of the rest of the window.  If it was a one-off in Azteca? Sure, go balls-to-the-wall and see what happens.  But we need to be smarter and more strategic about this 3 game window.  

[Club Linesman]

Exactly.  I think some of our group equates playing the 1B team as throwing in the towel.  It’s not. Our 1B is a solid squad and CAN take points in Mexico. We need to be strategic and get minimum 4 points.  As long as our top players are healthy for the last 2 games we stand to have a shot at 6.

[apbsmith]

On 10/1/2021 at 7:03 PM, footballfreak said:

Afik, the prevailing theory for sport at altitude gives us two options:

A. Get in and out as quickly as possible. 

or

B. Acclimatize well in advance. I forget the time frame, but I’m pretty sure it’s closer to weeks rather than days.

 

B is not available to us. A is the way.

Thank you, 100%. 

In and out within 48 hours does least effect to your red blood cell count. Many pro sports teams fly out of Denver immediately post game for that specific reason. The NFL teams have even started doing AM charters followed by PM departure due to the research. 

Takes about 7-10 days to fully acclimatize from my experience, unless you sleeping in an altitude tent. 

I only see us bringing 18 to Mexico, call it saving CSA $ or avoid altitude effects. 

Coming down from altitude feels amazing but only when you have been there 7+ days, otherwise really really sucks and you feel so tired with dead legs for a few days. 

At this time, there are meds to help with this, that I'm sure CSA is aware of.  

Edited October 3, 2021 by apbsmith

[apbsmith]

Just wanted to add... 

Altitude does NOT effect everyone the same way. Your hemoglobin levels and genetic make up play a significant role into the effects it has on you. 

Why some athletes and individuals can barely tell the difference, others will notice it significantly, some moderately. 

Based on what I see on the field, I think Eustaquio, Laryea, Millar, Johnston and even Davies are going to be effected the least by the altitude. I added Davies, because I'm sure Bayern's medical sports science team monitors his red blood level count regularly, and as a result prolly has very high hemoglobin levels. 

Just my 2 cents and opinion. 

Edited October 2, 2021 by apbsmith

[gator]

30 minutes ago, apbsmith said:

Just wanted to add... 

Altitude does NOT effect everyone the same way. Your hemoglobin levels and genetic make up play a significant role into the effects it has on you. 

Why some athletes and individuals can barely tell the difference, others will notice it significantly, some moderately. 

Based on what I see on the field, I think Eustaquio, Laryea, Millar, Johnston and even Davies are going to be effected the least by the altitude. I added Davies, because I'm sure Bayern's medical sports science team monitors his red blood level count regularly, and as a result prolly has very high hemoglobin levels. 

Just my 2 cents and opinion. 

Exactly! I have skied in the Alps and Rockies and it never really bothered me much, my friends on these trips were knackered, although I was in much better shape than I am now from lots of cross country skiing I am far from an elite athlete! 🤣

[SpursFlu]

This window is make or break for Jamaica and they have 3 tough games. They'll likely feel like they need a result in the US. We're likely to see a desperate Jamaica and a desperate coach fighting for his job.I think you'll start to see some separation in the group because so many ties are likely not to happen again. From here on out you're not going to want to find yourself outside the top 4. We need Davies, David, Eustaquio 100% v Jamaica and Panama. The 3rd game this time around ain't El Salvador.

I say to hell with the Mexico game. Its a lose lose situation. Maybe even hire some body doubles to run around the mountains of Mexico in red track suits while the boys are chilling in Montego Bay

Edited October 2, 2021 by SpursFlu

[DrunkOffPunch]

On 10/1/2021 at 7:50 PM, Stoppage Time said:

I am assuming that many or most of the Mexicans do not normally live or play at high altitude, so I wonder if the Mexicans will face, to some degree, the same altitude issues as we will.

12 or 13 of the Liga MX teams are at least at 5k feet which is similar to Denver. 

[narduch]

American ref for the big home game v Panama 

Haven't seen who is doing the Jamaica match yet

Edited October 3, 2021 by narduch

[MtlMario]

I think the best way to beat this altitude problemo is to score 4 or 5 goals in the first half and then park the subway car in the second half to conserve our energy for the next 2 games.😎

[A_Gagne]

3 hours ago, MtlMario said:

I think the best way to beat this altitude problemo is to score 4 or 5 goals in the first half and then park the subway car in the second half to conserve our energy for the next 2 games.😎

genius man pure genius!

[Cblake]

3 hours ago, MtlMario said:

I think the best way to beat this altitude problemo is to score 4 or 5 goals in the first half and then park the subway car in the second half to conserve our energy for the next 2 games.😎

Absolutely that is the way to go, Herdman has the boys to do it (  :

[hulkrogan]

I don't understand the rational that Azteca is an advantage for the Mexicans, yet playing in Edmonton in November is not an advantage for us, as our players aren't typically playing in the cold anymore.

How many players on the Mexican team are living at high altitudes? They will face the same challenges to adjust, no?

[Grandbloke]

5 minutes ago, hulkrogan said:

I don't understand the rational that Azteca is an advantage for the Mexicans, yet playing in Edmonton in November is not an advantage for us, as our players aren't typically playing in the cold anymore.

How many players on the Mexican team are living at high altitudes? They will face the same challenges to adjust, no?

Quite a few of Mexico’s best players play in Europe, so they will definitely have to adjust to the high elevation.

[MtlMario]

1 hour ago, A_Gagne said:

genius man pure genius!

I know I was being overly optimistic with the 4 or 5 goals, it was more of a joke, I thick 2 or 3 goals is more realistic.😁

[Floortom]

this is from the JFF Press Officer. Still no official word but seems likely that up to 15k vaccinated fans will be able to attend the match.

[Unnamed Trialist]

22 hours ago, MtlMario said:

I think the best way to beat this altitude problemo is to score 4 or 5 goals in the first half and then park the subway car in the second half to conserve our energy for the next 2 games.😎

Tramway trolleys are bigger, can't we park one of those instead? 

[Kent]

Regarding the point that most Mexican players are based in Europe so won't be ready for the altitude either, I have to wonder if there is selection bias in their team though. What I mean by that, is the claim that altitude affects some people more than others. If you are a Mexican kid that is really affected by altitude, you probably aren't going to make it as a pro. However, if you are a Canadian kid affected by altitude, you might not find that out until you are already a pro and are playing a game like this.

Whether this is an actual thing in the real world or not, I of course have no idea. I would at the very least think that the Mexican players will be more experienced playing at altitude, and will know what to expect.

Anyways, I'm just glad I don't have to make the decisions. I get to just be pumped up that there is a game in 3 days!

[narduch]

With Hoilett and Wotherspoon both not available for Mexico and about 5 guys injured, I'm starting to wonder if the roster shouldn't have been even larger.