Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty

[SF]

On 1/8/2023 at 9:55 AM, TOcanadafan said:

I’m a TFC fan, but definitely no apologist.  Until this club shows they actually have a development plan with their young talent, heck, even some kind of plan other than outspend the rest of the league, I cross my fingers that any prospect (overhyped or not) gets the hell out of town at first chance.  
Their top prospect talent was attacking wingers (JMR, Nelson, Shaff) and they go and buy 2 wing DP’s.  Previously they had their ‘hyped prospects’ coming in the midfield (Fraser, Okello, Priso) and they froze them out by over playing Bradley & Delgado. 
Top clubs also manage to have their youth team structure organized so that when youth come into the first squad, they ‘know’ the system… instead at TFC, youth who are given a rare opportunity look lost and become the coach’s scapegoat.

But, but Laryea?, Osorio?  Laryea was 24 when he signed to TFC, hardly a prospect, and Osorio came in 10 years ago.  TFC has likely the worst development track record of any team in MLS while enjoying one of the largest catchment areas, and now that TFC is in another ‘spend with no plan’ phase, I just wish they’d sell JMR asap, so that the buying team develops him in the position they best see him growing into.

Really agree with all of this (and am also TFC fan).  As a fan I am happy they are willing to spend money, but the spending is so tilted toward building hype at the expense of making thoughtful football decisions. It's like there is only one layer to their thinking and they have nurture and integrate young players.

[InglewoodJack]

1 minute ago, Bison44 said:

How many kids can just turn themselves into a talent ready to jump to europe at 18??  There is a club, coach/mentor, academy something involved, and most people want the best coaches etc (TFC) to help that along.  Even David had the Dragons/Hornets etc.

Absolutely, and you need a good agent with connections to get your mixtape in front of the right scouts. I know David is an exception because he was so good so young, but how many of TFC's young canadians are in a better spot career-wise than a guy like Richie Ennin, who left TFC II to go journey around Serie D and eastern europe- he played in the Russian Super League and is a starter in Hungary- decent league to jump elsewhere from. Nelson, probably, and JMR, who is living on Liverpool transfer rumor from 3 years ago hype, still, but other than that, hard to say. Not TFC, but Derek Cornelius went to Germany and Serbia before going to VWC, then heading right out on loan back to Europe shortly thereafter. Don't know a lot of VWC II or TFC II talents who look like they could go and play for Malmo tomorrow, for example.

I'm probably wrong because Canadian teams will prioritize young Canadians over any other league, but TFC acts like a Champions League team that needs a constant stream of bought talents to lead their team. That's understandable, I think they're like the 6th richest team in MLS and one of the few whose name and location can attract those marquee DPs, but that does nothing for young homegrown players. I wouldn't really want our young talents developing at Manchester City for the same reason too.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

17 minutes ago, SF said:

...As a fan I am happy they are willing to spend money, but the spending is so tilted toward building hype at the expense of making thoughtful football decisions...

20,000+ crowds showing up to watch Insigne and Bernardeschi are what guarantee the funds to run the academy at Downsview that so many CMNT and CanPL players have been involved with at some point over the last decade or so by keeping MLSE's bean counters happy that MLS is a worthwhile long term investment. Without that something like the Lynx or York United would be as good as it gets for soccer in the GTA because the crowd that will show up without any significant hype could very quickly be alarmingly small.

[Bison44]

Now is that 20,000+ tickets sold or an actual turnstile count?  And were there any special promotions or giveaways, ie free tickets for youth clubs or papering the house?  Not really important, just asking for a friend because he is very interested in these things.    

[Kadenge]

A winning team also brings in the fans & money, but perhaps that's harder to do than signing Insigne & Fede 🙂

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Now is that 20,000+ tickets sold or an actual turnstile count?  And were there any special promotions or giveaways, ie free tickets for youth clubs or papering the house?  Not really important, just asking for a friend because he is very interested in these things.    

It's a visual count based on how the near side grandstand looks when the camera points wide for a corner. 

By the way, there are always a lot of empty seats, we do the visuals, the camera helps, there are always a lot of empty seats and the official count doesn't sound right.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[SF]

8 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

20,000+ crowds showing up to watch Insigne and Bernardeschi are what guarantee the funds to run the academy at Downsview that so many CMNT and CanPL players have been involved with at some point over the last decade or so by keeping MLSE's bean counters happy that MLS is a worthwhile long term investment. Without that something like the Lynx or York United would be as good as it gets for soccer in the GTA because the crowd that will show up without any significant hype could very quickly be alarmingly small.

My point is that the two don't need to be mutually exclusive.

The club can spend money and develop players - lots of clubs do.

TFC seems to spend the money without giving thought to building a comprehensive team and developing young players to fit within that context (or spending the big money to fit within that context).

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

11 hours ago, Kadenge said:

A winning team also brings in the fans & money, but perhaps that's harder to do than signing Insigne & Fede 🙂

Of course it is harder to do that consistently in a league with policies deliberately geared towards parity. They needed a quick fix after what happened to fan interest during the pandemic with Pozuelo and Soteldo on board and Altidore perpetually injured. Hiring Bob Bradley was a sign they were also committed to trying to get the overall operations stabilized as well. Hopefully he isn't living off his reputation at this point.

[El Hombre]

9 hours ago, SF said:

TFC seems to spend the money without giving thought to building a comprehensive team and developing young players to fit within that context (or spending the big money to fit within that context).

I agree with this.

They're a team that wants to perpetually load the bases so that they can hit a grand slam rather than score runs here and there with singles and doubles.  When it works (2017) its amazing.  When it doesn't (2021/2022) it's pretty hard to swallow.

[SF]

4 hours ago, El Hombre said:

I agree with this.

They're a team that wants to perpetually load the bases so that they can hit a grand slam rather than score runs here and there with singles and doubles.  When it works (2017) its amazing.  When it doesn't (2021/2022) it's pretty hard to swallow.

Agreed, for sure.  Regarding the era you cite, I think they did spend the money reasonably wisely. The 3 big money players all complimented each other and the balance of the roster (which did not include players developed at home) worked within that context.

The main difference, really, is that Tim B. and Vanney were in charge. The club, before or after, has not had a front office/coaching level even close to that one.

I think they also lost a real development opportunity during that era. The best clubs integrate maybe 1-2 players a year from their youth setup. TFC seemed intent on riding that roster until the wheels fell off and, when they did, overload the team with youth - which is a recipe for youth failure.

[YorkRegionFan]

13 minutes ago, SF said:

The main difference, really, is that Tim B. and Vanney were in charge. The club, before or after, has not had a front office/coaching level even close to that one.

I think they also lost a real development opportunity during that era. The best clubs integrate maybe 1-2 players a year from their youth setup. TFC seemed intent on riding that roster until the wheels fell off and, when they did, overload the team with youth - which is a recipe for youth failure.

I mostly agree with this idea.  However, while Vanney often talked about the importance of the academy, he refused to integrate the young players during the last couple of years that he was here.  In fact the last year he was here, he seemed intent of trying to win by playing the journey men players over the youth that was there.

[rkomar]

3 hours ago, YorkRegionFan said:

I mostly agree with this idea.  However, while Vanney often talked about the importance of the academy, he refused to integrate the young players during the last couple of years that he was here.  In fact the last year he was here, he seemed intent of trying to win by playing the journey men players over the youth that was there.

Vanney refused to play anyone who regularly turned over the ball at bad times.  That turned out to be the young players, while the journeymen kept that to a minimum.  It wasn't a super high bar to get over, but it was too high for many.

[YorkRegionFan]

49 minutes ago, rkomar said:

Vanney refused to play anyone who regularly turned over the ball at bad times.  That turned out to be the young players, while the journeymen kept that to a minimum.  It wasn't a super high bar to get over, but it was too high for many.

Is this a function of the way the academy kids were being brought up or is it a matter of Vanney not trusting the players.  When you see Philadelphia or FC Dallas integrate so many young players from their academy into the regular team, what is TFC doing wrong?

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, YorkRegionFan said:

Is this a function of the way the academy kids were being brought up or is it a matter of Vanney not trusting the players.  When you see Philadelphia or FC Dallas integrate so many young players from their academy into the regular team, what is TFC doing wrong?

But if these kids were of the same quality and talent that those kids from the Philly or Dallas system,  then we wouldn't ever be having these debates.  Or, if these kids were even of the same quality or talent as Ismael Kone,   then, again,  we wouldn't be having these debates.   If these kids could contribute to the success of the senior team in the same way as Aronson, Kone, Pepi or Phonzie with the whitecaps...etc. again, we would all be on the same page.     

The point is,  they are not.   And, its not just about playing time or doing this or doing that from an academy (philosophical) standpoint.  Players of all ages are not all of the same talent or are not the same prospects or destined for the same level of stardom.  So far we have not seen a talent come through the TFC system that is at the same level as those kids at Philly or Dallas.   IMHO Its not TFC's fault that we over rate some or all of these kids.   We cant magically say, we are going to produce the next Alphonso Davies or Kone and presto there it is.    To produce the next Davies or Kone you have to have the next Davies or Kone in your system in order to develop them into the next Davies or Kone.  

JMR could be that next guy.   We will have to see.   But we have to reserve judgement based on what we see on the pitch.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Free kick

[BearcatSA]

15 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Hiring Bob Bradley was a sign they were also committed to trying to get the overall operations stabilized as well. Hopefully he isn't living off his reputation at this point.

Look, he's in an awkward spot with his son who, as continual starter and team captain, is clearly on the downward side of his career.  And, as a neutral observer watching this team play out the string last year, I found them to be a disjointed, individualistic group, frankly, lacking team work and collective effort (as well as talent in central defence and no decent CF).  It looked liked a side playing for a lame duck coach.  Well, he and his son the captain are still here.  I think the potential for a midseason mess is pretty high.  And with that, I also think the $14 million man will be finding a way out on his deal so he can lace up his boots in the back drop of the Sahara for a not dissimilar pay packet.  I hear there is lots of money for pro soccer out there 😉

I have been wrong lots so I can add this to my always growing list of poor predictions if TFC are near top of the table but at the moment, there is a lot to prove.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by BearcatSA

[narduch]

Rumour on the most popular TFC forum is that JMR and Nelson will both be moved out soon.

[An Observer]

57 minutes ago, Free kick said:

But if these kids were of the same quality and talent that those kids from the Philly or Dallas system,  then we wouldn't ever be having these debates.  Or, if these kids were even of the same quality or talent as Ismael Kone,   then, again,  we wouldn't be having these debates.   If these kids could contribute to the success of the senior team in the same way as Aronson, Kone, Pepi or Phonzie with the whitecaps...etc. again, we would all be on the same page.     

The point is,  they are not.   And, its not just about playing time or doing this or doing that from an academy (philosophical) standpoint.  Players of all ages are not all of the same talent or are not the same prospects or destined for the same level of stardom.  So far we have not seen a talent come through the TFC system that is at the same level as those kids at Philly or Dallas.   IMHO Its not TFC's fault that we over rate some or all of these kids.   We cant magically say, we are going to produce the next Alphonso Davies or Kone and presto there it is.    To produce the next Davies or Kone you have to have the next Davies or Kone in your system in order to develop them into the next Davies or Kone.  

JMR could be that next guy.   We will have to see.   But we have to reserve judgement based on what we see on the pitch.

hmmm.  Not so sure I agree with this take.  Others on here may know this better than me, but the TFC youth sides have always been dominate and rivalling Dallas and Philly at that stage.  But something doesn't translate from youth to pro with those players (but it seems to do so to a degree with other GTA players who go another route like Larin, Laryea, etc and who by and large, didn't make the cut at youth level at TFC).  That seems to me that either (1) TFC is not grooming these players properly at the youth level and just relying on their talent which means they have holes in their game which is exposed at the pro level; and/or (2) they are not giving them the opportunities at the pro level by integrating them into the side properly so in those crucial 18-22 years they stall and then flame out.  I think what you are guilty of is thinking because Aronson, Pepi, etc made it, they would have made it anywhere in any environment which I don't think is true (otherwise smaller European countries would not dominate at football as the sheer numbers would suggest Brazil, the US, Russia, China, Indonesia would dominate...obviously Brazil does but not the others).  The youth club environment helped to shape them to fill in the skills they needed to be a professional and the then professional club nurtured them so they can refine those skills in order to become the players that they are.  That is what TFC seems to be failing to do.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by An Observer

[SthMelbRed]

1 hour ago, Free kick said:

But if these kids were of the same quality and talent that those kids from the Philly or Dallas system,  then we wouldn't ever be having these debates.  Or, if these kids were even of the same quality or talent as Ismael Kone,   then, again,  we wouldn't be having these debates.   If these kids could contribute to the success of the senior team in the same way as Aronson, Kone, Pepi or Phonzie with the whitecaps...etc. again, we would all be on the same page.     

The point is,  they are not.   And, its not just about playing time or doing this or doing that from an academy (philosophical) standpoint.  Players of all ages are not all of the same talent or are not the same prospects or destined for the same level of stardom.  So far we have not seen a talent come through the TFC system that is at the same level as those kids at Philly or Dallas.   IMHO Its not TFC's fault that we over rate some or all of these kids.   We cant magically say, we are going to produce the next Alphonso Davies or Kone and presto there it is.    To produce the next Davies or Kone you have to have the next Davies or Kone in your system in order to develop them into the next Davies or Kone.  

JMR could be that next guy.   We will have to see.   But we have to reserve judgement based on what we see on the pitch.

This might hold more water if TFC didn't bury a young Liam Fraser for the best part of 3-4 seasons when he was clearly an able understudy to Michael Bradley, particularly as Bradley's legs fell off and his performances became more erratic. 

[El Hombre]

12 hours ago, Free kick said:

If these kids could contribute to the success of the senior team in the same way as Aronson, Kone, Pepi or Phonzie with the whitecaps...etc. again, we would all be on the same page.     

 

You're talking about elite talents.  Yes, if the TFC academy bore that kind of fruit, that would be great.  But the Philadelphia and Dallas academies are doing more than that.  For example, Philadelphia have had a number of serviceable players come through their system like Jack McGlynn, Nathan Harriel, Quinn Sullivan, Auston Trusty (he might end up more than "serviceable"), Derrick Jones etc.

While it's great to unearth and sell a generational player for >$5m, the goal should be to bring along these other role players that can do a job in MLS.  That's what you saw lately with Petrasso and Thompson and Nelson etc. but was not really done that much prior to Bradley.

[Shway]

15 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

You're talking about elite talents.  Yes, if the TFC academy bore that kind of fruit, that would be great.  But the Philadelphia and Dallas academies are doing more than that.  For example, Philadelphia have had a number of serviceable players come through their system like Jack McGlynn, Nathan Harriel, Quinn Sullivan, Auston Trusty (he might end up more than "serviceable"), Derrick Jones etc.

While it's great to unearth and sell a generational player for >$5m, the goal should be to bring along these other role players that can do a job in MLS.  That's what you saw lately with Petrasso and Thompson and Nelson etc. but was not really done that much prior to Bradley.

Great comparisons.

Those clubs are the epitome of development franchises who put little expectation on winning things (although the unions fortunes have been better).

The club that surprises me the most is FC Dallas, because if they spent to win/big while surround their elite academy talents with those players they have the perfect recipe. 

Bob Bradley gave these sorta talks early on, and it looked like he was committed to this with M-R, Thompson, Petrasso, Shaffelburg, and Kerr……

But nah it was nothing.

[Stryker911]

Kind ofnoff topic. But has anyone seen a training campnroster? Trying to see which of the TFC2 guys were invited.

[narduch]

8 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

Kind ofnoff topic. But has anyone seen a training campnroster? Trying to see which of the TFC2 guys were invited.

Club appears to be too embarrassed to release it.

Most other MLS clubs have done it

[Dominic94]

14 hours ago, An Observer said:

hmmm.  Not so sure I agree with this take.  Others on here may know this better than me, but the TFC youth sides have always been dominate and rivalling Dallas and Philly at that stage.  But something doesn't translate from youth to pro with those players (but it seems to do so to a degree with other GTA players who go another route like Larin, Laryea, etc and who by and large, didn't make the cut at youth level at TFC).  That seems to me that either (1) TFC is not grooming these players properly at the youth level and just relying on their talent which means they have holes in their game which is exposed at the pro level; and/or (2) they are not giving them the opportunities at the pro level by integrating them into the side properly so in those crucial 18-22 years they stall and then flame out.  I think what you are guilty of is thinking because Aronson, Pepi, etc made it, they would have made it anywhere in any environment which I don't think is true (otherwise smaller European countries would not dominate at football as the sheer numbers would suggest Brazil, the US, Russia, China, Indonesia would dominate...obviously Brazil does but not the others).  The youth club environment helped to shape them to fill in the skills they needed to be a professional and the then professional club nurtured them so they can refine those skills in order to become the players that they are.  That is what TFC seems to be failing to do.

 

The in between is where they’re getting laced.

 

the jump

from academy to pro. MTL, Van and TFC are getting killed here, because anyone will tell you at the youth level the talent is there and not many can play better.

[Ruffian]

3 hours ago, El Hombre said:

For example, Philadelphia have had a number of serviceable players come through their system like Jack McGlynn, Nathan Harriel, Quinn Sullivan, Auston Trusty (he might end up more than "serviceable"), Derrick Jones etc.

I would say TFC has as many serviceable players on their team from their academy and they are getting as many minutes as those you mentioned here for Philly.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, Dominic94 said:

...from academy to pro. MTL, Van and TFC are getting killed here,...

...which makes it ironic that many of the same people who are bitterly critical of what's happening with the three MLS academies on here and constantly accentuate the negative, completely lose the plot if you dare suggest that affiliates in CanPL could have been used to better bridge that gap between the academy level and the MLS roster to the mutual benefit of the three MLS franchises and CanPL.

It also begs the question what exactly the CSA thought it was achieving when it was actively blocking sanctioning for Canadian based MLS reserve teams in USSF sanctioned leagues. If three Canadian soccer clubs are pumping massive amounts of money into pro level player development, the sensible thing to do would be to help them rather than place obstacles in their way. Fortunately, Next Pro appears to have addressed that to a certain extent.