Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty

[dyslexic nam]

11 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

As for europe, academies there don't care about our players unless they're alphonso davies level. of all of our sub 20-year old players in Europe, I would be shocked if more than one of them ever started significant games for our national team right now. they're likely all going to bust.

 

I agree that Euro academies don’t give two shits about specifically developing Canadian internationals but I disagree on your assessment of our current Euro based prospects.  Off the top of my head, I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if Jebbison, Smith and Koleosho all accumulated a very respectable number of caps for Canada in the coming decade - and Corbeanu is only disqualified because he is already 20.  Throw in Dias (who apparently turned 20 today according to Wikipedia) and I don’t think we should devalue our European pipeline.  

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

2 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

...As for europe, academies there don't care about our players unless they're alphonso davies level...

Maybe worth bearing in mind that soccer still skews heavily at the elite level towards immigrant communities where access to European passports is nothing massively out of the ordinary. The guy from Simcoe Rovers who just got signed by Kilmarnock that nobody had heard of fits that profile, for example. I can think of quite a few guys from London, Ont who played in the youth setups of European clubs where their families were from originally with there being little or no publicity about it.

[Bigandy]

55 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

academies there don't care about our players unless they're alphonso davies level. of all of our sub 20-year old players in Europe, I would be shocked if more than one of them ever started significant games for our national team right now. they're likely all going to bust.

To piggy back on dsylexic nam - Its hard to think that only 1 of the following list will ever contribute to the national team. This list is roughly the 17-20 age group but we have many more prospects at younger ages too!

1.smith
2. corbeanu
3. koleosho 
4. Costa
5. Colyn
6. Higazi 
7. De guzman
8. Knight-lebel
9. Pellegrino
10. Davidson
11. Jebbison
12. Diallo
13. Kratt
14. Goodman
15. Dias
16. Pepple
17. Simmons
18. Michel
19. Coupland 
20. Odunze
21. Vilsaint
22. Buschman dormond

[InglewoodJack]

38 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

 

I agree that Euro academies don’t give two shits about specifically developing Canadian internationals but I disagree on your assessment of our current Euro based prospects.  Off the top of my head, I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if Jebbison, Smith and Koleosho all accumulated a very respectable number of caps for Canada in the coming decade - and Corbeanu is only disqualified because he is already 20.  Throw in Dias (who apparently turned 20 today according to Wikipedia) and I don’t think we should devalue our European pipeline.  

I was thinking of our players in academies- out of Lucas Dias, Jesse Costa, Malcolm Simmons, Damiano Pecile, knight-lebel, Dieu-Merci Michel, Ronan Kratt, Antoine Coupland, jules-anthony vilsaint, and the couple players we have at the serie A academies, how many are going to realistically play regularly for Canada? I'd be happy with 1, shocked if it's multiple.

30 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Maybe worth bearing in mind that soccer still skews heavily at the elite level towards immigrant communities where access to European passports is nothing massively out of the ordinary. The guy from Simcoe Rovers who just got signed by Kilmarnock that nobody had heard of fits that profile, for example. I can think of quite a few guys from London, Ont who played in the youth setups of European clubs where their families were from originally with there being little or no publicity about it.

It's less about the accessibility factor for me and more the fact that they aren't prioritized. Seems like so many of our players go to these big european academies, they play like 4 games and then are relegated to healthy scratches for the rest of their time there before they leave. It's what is happening to Malcolm Simmons, it's what happened to Pecile (IG posts from Vancouver despite Venezia's season still very much being live?),  Jesse Costa looks like he's being dropped from U19 games (unless he's with wolfburg's u23 if such a team exists?), and the list goes on. Sure, not every player is good enough to hang, and that's the biggest factor, but these players aren't even getting loaned out- their opportunity to properly develop appears and disappears in a matter of weeks, and then they're banished from the roster.

[InglewoodJack]

33 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

To piggy back on dsylexic nam - Its hard to think that only 1 of the following list will ever contribute to the national team. This list is roughly the 17-20 age group but we have many more prospects at younger ages too!

1.smith
2. corbeanu
3. koleosho 
4. Costa
5. Colyn
6. Higazi 
7. De guzman
8. Knight-lebel
9. Pellegrino
10. Davidson
11. Jebbison
12. Diallo
13. Kratt
14. Goodman
15. Dias
16. Pepple
17. Simmons
18. Michel
19. Coupland 
20. Odunze
21. Vilsaint
22. Buschman dormond

Bolded are players currently pro. I'm looking at players in European academies. Of the 13 that are not bolded, how many do you realistically think will contribute to the national team?

[Bigandy]

20 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Bolded are players currently pro. I'm looking at players in European academies. Of the 13 that are not bolded, how many do you realistically think will contribute to the national team?

I see your point and agree given the criteria you are now saying. But it feels like your saying that we will not have many contributors to the CMNT if we disregard all of our top prospects and the prospects who make it through the academy.

It seems odd to say that european academies do not care about canadians unless they are a davies level, but then to prove the point, we disregard all our best talents who came through academies in europe.

For example, Colyn is with young psv not PSV. Same for de guzman who is 16. Corbeanu and Smith are still academy players but have been sent on loan. Koleosho is on the verge of the first team but is still more of an academy player than a regular in the first team. I dont think Pellegrino has minutes for frieburgs first team.  

It feels a bit arbitrary to say which players we count and which players we dont. I can't see the logic why some count and some we disregard? Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean when you call them pros? 

[InglewoodJack]

Just now, Bigandy said:

I see your point and agree given the criteria you are now saying. But it feels like your saying that we will not have many contributors to the CMNT if we disregard all of our top prospects and the prospects who make it through the academy.

It seems odd to say that european academies do not care about canadians unless they are a davies level, but then to prove the point, we disregard all our best talents who came through academies in europe.

For example, Colyn is with young psv not PSV. Same for de guzman who is 16. Corbeanu and Smith are still academy players but have been sent on loan. Koleosho is on the verge of the first team but is still more of an academy player than a regular in the first team. I dont think Pellegrino has minutes for frieburgs first team.  

It feels a bit arbitrary to say which players we count and which players we dont. I can't see the logic why some count and some we disregard? Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean when you call them pros? 

We've gotten so far from the original argument, but my main point here is that european academies don't properly develop players from a country like canada, and the window of opportunity before you become an afterthought is incredibly thin. In saying they're all busting, I'm not saying they suck, just that we get all these players at exciting big academies, and they end up never playing, stunt their growth, and then don't reach their potential. The competition they face in amateur/dev leagues is low, and I think our kids would benefit from professional opposition, not other children.

Of the players you mentioned, Colyn started at Vancouver, then went to Jong PSV which plays in a pro league. Corbeanu signed his pro deal with Wolves nearly 3 years ago, and has played pro ever since and Smith... I mean, PSG didn't want him, Nice didn't want him, Quevilly doesn't want him, he's playing 5th (?) division soccer in France, none of us have any clue why he can't play because he looks really good, if anything, he's proving my point! When he has played pro with Nice II and Quevilly II, he's looked fine though.

As for De Guzman, I mixed him up with Osaze De Rozario. But De Guzman is 15, playing at his father's club. I don't know much about the player, but isn't this just the nice gesture clubs give former fan favourites? Pretty sure all of David Beckham's influencer children have had their go at various elite academies too. Still too young to make anything of in any case. Also mixed Pellegrino with someone in the CPL- not sure who.

Bottom line is that players develop better when they face professional opposition, and academies in other countries do not have a good track record in prioritizing Canadians, which is natural, they care about their other players, so all of that points to the fact that the best way for us to properly develop our young talent is to give them more chances to face pro opposition, and the best way to do that is to find a way to make it happen in Canada.

[Bigandy]

16 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

We've gotten so far from the original argument, but my main point here is that european academies don't properly develop players from a country like canada, and the window of opportunity before you become an afterthought is incredibly thin. In saying they're all busting, I'm not saying they suck, just that we get all these players at exciting big academies, and they end up never playing, stunt their growth, and then don't reach their potential. The competition they face in amateur/dev leagues is low, and I think our kids would benefit from professional opposition, not other children.

Of the players you mentioned, Colyn started at Vancouver, then went to Jong PSV which plays in a pro league. Corbeanu signed his pro deal with Wolves nearly 3 years ago, and has played pro ever since and Smith... I mean, PSG didn't want him, Nice didn't want him, Quevilly doesn't want him, he's playing 5th (?) division soccer in France, none of us have any clue why he can't play because he looks really good, if anything, he's proving my point! When he has played pro with Nice II and Quevilly II, he's looked fine though.

As for De Guzman, I mixed him up with Osaze De Rozario. But De Guzman is 15, playing at his father's club. I don't know much about the player, but isn't this just the nice gesture clubs give former fan favourites? Pretty sure all of David Beckham's influencer children have had their go at various elite academies too. Still too young to make anything of in any case. Also mixed Pellegrino with someone in the CPL- not sure who.

Bottom line is that players develop better when they face professional opposition, and academies in other countries do not have a good track record in prioritizing Canadians, which is natural, they care about their other players, so all of that points to the fact that the best way for us to properly develop our young talent is to give them more chances to face pro opposition, and the best way to do that is to find a way to make it happen in Canada.

What are you talking about.....It's not like these forums to get off track? Can i interest anyone in some bagged milk?


I think i understand better what youre saying. Playing against pro men is for sure better than playing in academies (assuming its a relatively fair comparison. Not a huuuuge leap like Ajax academy vs USL 2). Players who have played in pro leagues are also much further in their development compared to academy kids. 

Now that I understand your point better, I would agree that most of our players who havnt played mens who are 18-20 will likely bust. Tbf, theres not many high end prospects in a euro academy with zero pro minutes.  I dont think many of us are expecting a guy like coupland to be crazy good. 

Dias and simmons are 2 that I am optomistic about but I would be surprised if they played for the first teams of sporting and benfica. 

The GK are a bit different as GK take longer to develop.

Then we have the next generation. The de guzmans, costas, higazis etc. I think its too early to discount them. In 2 years they could easily start gettingloans and making pro appearances. Its unlikely they make the first team at their current club, but thats the case for 95% of kids in any academy.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Bigandy

[sebdeserio]

JMR needs to watch every minute that Rico Lewis plays and aim to play like that this season.

[Dominic94]

Doesn’t look like he will be sold, at this point in time I think it’s safe to start writing him off. Barring a miracle he will play a maximum of 1000 minutes this year, likely at Center back now.

 

in all seriousness we should be worried, for that reason it’s time to look at him as a guy who may have a good career in mls or the can pl.

it’s very upsetting forsure, hopefully young players will learn from this and not sign with TFC for 5 years like he has.

[narduch]

8 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

Doesn’t look like he will be sold, at this point in time I think it’s safe to start writing him off. Barring a miracle he will play a maximum of 1000 minutes this year, likely at Center back now.

 

in all seriousness we should be worried, for that reason it’s time to look at him as a guy who may have a good career in mls or the can pl.

it’s very upsetting forsure, hopefully young players will learn from this and not sign with TFC for 5 years like he has.

Can still be moved within MLS 

[InglewoodJack]

9 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

Doesn’t look like he will be sold, at this point in time I think it’s safe to start writing him off. Barring a miracle he will play a maximum of 1000 minutes this year, likely at Center back now.

 

in all seriousness we should be worried, for that reason it’s time to look at him as a guy who may have a good career in mls or the can pl.

it’s very upsetting forsure, hopefully young players will learn from this and not sign with TFC for 5 years like he has.

He’s 18. With all of the things you’re mentioning, why wouldn’t Toronto look to sell him this summer? Either they suck and can offload him, or they’re good, so he isn’t playing, and they want to make some money before the hype completely dissipates. Kone wasn’t even playing pro soccer at his age.

[Obinna]

@Dominic94Not too worried about Rutty either. Like Nelson, I think he'll get reps.

He started last year as a starter and likely would have continued to be if not for the injury. If the new Italian left back is up to snuff, Rutty will start from the bench behind Laryea, but keep in mind that Laryea returns to Nottingham in the summer time. If Rutty doesn't get sold, that spot is his. 

If the new Italian left back is not up to snuff or has fitness problems (seems to have a checkered history of staying healthy), the Rutty walks into the right back spot with Richie on the left.

Seems like a pretty clear path to big minutes either way. 

[Dominic94]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

Can still be moved within MLS 

Only for 25million in GAM, and after he’s 23 because he has to warm the bench for longer.

[Dominic94]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

@Dominic94Not too worried about Rutty either. Like Nelson, I think he'll get reps.

He started last year as a starter and likely would have continued to be if not for the injury. If the new Italian left back is up to snuff, Rutty will start from the bench behind Laryea, but keep in mind that Laryea returns to Nottingham in the summer time. If Rutty doesn't get sold, that spot is his. 

If the new Italian left back is not up to snuff or has fitness problems (seems to have a checkered history of staying healthy), the Rutty walks into the right back spot with Richie on the left.

Seems like a pretty clear path to big minutes either way. 

I have 0 faith he will play. 

[RS]

2 hours ago, Dominic94 said:

at this point in time I think it’s safe to start writing him off.

JFC

EDIT: I'm sure I'm guilty of what @Shway often likes to accuse me of here but I couldn't get past this sentence. JMR's 18 years old and this guy wants to write him off because he doesn't like TFC. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by RS

[Dominic94]

5 minutes ago, RS said:

JFC

EDIT: I'm sure I'm guilty of what @Shway often likes to accuse me of here but I couldn't get past this sentence. JMR's 18 years old and this guy wants to write him off because he doesn't like TFC. 

They don’t play him, when they do it’s out of position, they can’t develop youth, and their on record saying they don’t know where to play him… also they’re trying win. Where does that leave him ?

[narduch]

22 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

Only for 25million in GAM, and after he’s 23 because he has to warm the bench for longer.

LOL man. I don't believe the valuation.

[InglewoodJack]

We can criticize TFC all we want for legitimate reasons, but think of this rationally for a second- JMR is likely their best ever prospect, at least in terms of reputation, they are a club that spends a ton of money on expensive imports with very few assets to sell for proit, except Nelson and JMR, basically. What is Toronto's reason for keeping JMR and not playing him? They've shown that they'll deal young guys who they don't have in their future plans, like Shaffelburg and Priso, they've sold players to Europe before, they'll probably get a better fee if they sell him mid season in the summer.

 

I guess the obvious reply is that their FO overvalues him and will only sell him for a king's ransom, but they know his value doesn't increase on the bench, and they know that they want to win with the Italians and other players they bring in, not their young guys. So it's very improbable that he doesn't get his transfer this year. Sucks it didn't happen during the winter, but I would be shocked if he's playing in Toronto by September.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

LOL man. I don't believe the valuation.

His TM value is 2.5M

Maybe this was just a decimal place issue....😁

[InglewoodJack]

46 minutes ago, Obinna said:

His TM value is 2.5M

Maybe this was just a decimal place issue....😁

I purchased JMR in my FIFA career mode, and I just rejected a $20 million offer for him, 3 seasons into the future.

Give it time… 

[Shway]

5 hours ago, RS said:

JFC

EDIT: I'm sure I'm guilty of what @Shway often likes to accuse me of here but I couldn't get past this sentence. JMR's 18 years old and this guy wants to write him off because he doesn't like TFC. 

Hey man, I’ve never called you a TFC apologists. Wrong guy, I’m a TFC fan so that call-out doesn’t make sense. 

[costarg]

9 hours ago, Obinna said:

@Dominic94Not too worried about Rutty either. Like Nelson, I think he'll get reps.

He started last year as a starter and likely would have continued to be if not for the injury. If the new Italian left back is up to snuff, Rutty will start from the bench behind Laryea, but keep in mind that Laryea returns to Nottingham in the summer time. If Rutty doesn't get sold, that spot is his. 

If the new Italian left back is not up to snuff or has fitness problems (seems to have a checkered history of staying healthy), the Rutty walks into the right back spot with Richie on the left.

Seems like a pretty clear path to big minutes either way. 

My friend, You're just making the case for him leaving even more important and obvious.  He ain't a right back and TFC doesn't know it either.  Just set him loose to develop properly already!

Edited February 1, 2023 by costarg

[RS]

13 hours ago, Shway said:

Hey man, I’ve never called you a TFC apologists. Wrong guy, I’m a TFC fan so that call-out doesn’t make sense. 

No, I’m saying that I only took one sentence from Dominic94’s (longer) post and responded to it. You’ve called me out on that in the past.

I fully admit to doing it this time because it was so over-the-top for him to declare JMR’s career over at 18 years old. 

It actually doesn’t matter which club it was in this case. I’d be reacting the same way if someone was declaring that it’s time to start writing off, let’s say, Matteo Campagna because the Whitecaps haven’t sold him yet.

Its over-the-top nonsense.

 

[Dominic94]

10 hours ago, RS said:

No, I’m saying that I only took one sentence from Dominic94’s (longer) post and responded to it. You’ve called me out on that in the past.

I fully admit to doing it this time because it was so over-the-top for him to declare JMR’s career over at 18 years old. 

It actually doesn’t matter which club it was in this case. I’d be reacting the same way if someone was declaring that it’s time to start writing off, let’s say, Matteo Campagna because the Whitecaps haven’t sold him yet.

Its over-the-top nonsense.

 

I said we had to expect that he would not reach his potential. Didn’t say his career was over, it’s just trending further down.