Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty

[narduch]

16 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

...which makes it ironic that many of the same people who are bitterly critical of what's happening with the three MLS academies on here and constantly accentuate the negative 

Lol.

Irony is dead if you are complaining about others accentuating the negative 

[InglewoodJack]

So are we fine with him going to Dortmund if Liverpool doesn’t work out? I’ll begrudgingly accept Atletico too if need be 

[Obinna]

16 hours ago, narduch said:

Rumour on the most popular TFC forum is that JMR and Nelson will both be moved out soon.

Mind sharing? Quickly browsed the Red Patch forum and didn't see anything (unless you meant it's elsewhere).

[costarg]

18 hours ago, Free kick said:

But if these kids were of the same quality and talent that those kids from the Philly or Dallas system,  then we wouldn't ever be having these debates.  Or, if these kids were even of the same quality or talent as Ismael Kone,   then, again,  we wouldn't be having these debates.   If these kids could contribute to the success of the senior team in the same way as Aronson, Kone, Pepi or Phonzie with the whitecaps...etc. again, we would all be on the same page.     

The point is,  they are not.   And, its not just about playing time or doing this or doing that from an academy (philosophical) standpoint.  Players of all ages are not all of the same talent or are not the same prospects or destined for the same level of stardom.  So far we have not seen a talent come through the TFC system that is at the same level as those kids at Philly or Dallas.   IMHO Its not TFC's fault that we over rate some or all of these kids.   We cant magically say, we are going to produce the next Alphonso Davies or Kone and presto there it is.    To produce the next Davies or Kone you have to have the next Davies or Kone in your system in order to develop them into the next Davies or Kone.  

JMR could be that next guy.   We will have to see.   But we have to reserve judgement based on what we see on the pitch.

You're really underestimating the process and what it takes for a Kone, Phonzie, Aaronson, etc...  to develop.  These kids aren't just born and then spotted on a pitch at 16, get his first cap and 18, and transfer overseas for miliions.  You should work for TFC, you'd fit right in with their mentality and development plan.

Just a hint..... the organization/team plays a huge part in the kids success or failure.  it isn't the kids failing TFC, it's TFC failing the kids.

[CanadaFan123]

15 years into TFC academy and the clubs greatest “homegrown” is a player that didn’t even play for the academy. 
 

There are no excuses for TFC’s development ineptitude. They’re located in one the most talented regions in CONCACAF and they’re being outperformed by a private academy. 
 

Look at some of the personnel choices by TFC on and off the pitch and it’s not surprising. This is an academy that cut Liam Millar but always has space for a player with the right last name.. 

Not professionally run so can’t be surprised it hasn’t been successful. 

[Bigandy]

9 minutes ago, costarg said:

You're really underestimating the process and what it takes for a Kone, Phonzie, Aaronson, etc...  to develop.  These kids aren't just born and then spotted on a pitch at 16, get his first cap and 18, and transfer overseas for miliions.  You should work for TFC, you'd fit right in with their mentality and development plan.

Just a hint..... the organization/team plays a huge part in the kids success or failure.  it isn't the kids failing TFC, it's TFC failing the kids.

I agree with you, but there is something to be said about the limits of players. Phonzie has world class pace and no amount of development can give that to JMR. These prospects have limits and its the clubs job to get them to the furthest point possible for their development. I would guess that phonzie had such a high ceiling that he would have developed into an mls star at any mls club. Kone would likely have been the same as he really didnt spend much of his time developing at montreal. 

I think the bigger issue is for guys who's potential is between barely making an mls roster and going to europe. Cornelius, Nelson, Okello, fraser etc.  Club development will make or break these guys. 

[VinceA]

1 minute ago, Bigandy said:

I agree with you, but there is something to be said about the limits of players. Phonzie has world class pace and no amount of development can give that to JMR. These prospects have limits and its the clubs job to get them to the furthest point possible for their development. I would guess that phonzie had such a high ceiling that he would have developed into an mls star at any mls club. Kone would likely have been the same as he really didnt spend much of his time developing at montreal. 

I think the bigger issue is for guys who's potential is between barely making an mls roster and going to europe. Cornelius, Nelson, Okello, fraser etc.  Club development will make or break these guys. 

I think one huge issue has been the hype machine. The president of TFC saying JMR is Phonzie-level immediately puts a ridiculous amount of pressure on a kid who isn't even the same physical profile. Plus being a wide player guarantees those comparisons, and then $$ evaluations. Then you have his injuries and the fact that even healthy there hasn't been anything about him to actually suggest being a world beater. 

He's already on an uphill battle because his own club has touted him as being on the same level as arguably the best talent to be exported from MLS.

[Bison44]

If we are going down that road, here is a question to ponder.  

St Clair, Johnston, Kamal, Lareya, Buchanon, Larin..etc..most of the best players coming out of GTA lately never played in TFC academy and never played for canadian youth teams.  So they were either overlooked or rightly overlooked and developed later in NCAA/L10, etc.  Either way it seems like the most important time for their growth was 18-21.  So a lot of the second tier kids who didnt get to TFC/CDN youth teams were able to make it to the top....but the best prospects, the hyped guys at TFC with the best coaching (13-17years old), repping canada as kids, they fall behind once they turn 18/19 and never do get to the top of heap.  Is that because TFC academy doesnt get the best prospects as teeangers, the kids just arent good enough as Free Kick suggests, ie evaluating these kids is all screwed up??  Or would it be that they do get more than their share of the best talent in GTA, do well with them at the academy, but fumble the ball when they are 18-20 and very few of them pan out professionally?? 

Or maybe just a numbers game, so many other kids at other academies/schools that some of them are bound to succeed, while the limited number of kids in TFC academy arent enough to include someone good enough to be a top contributor to CMNT??  Maybe its too much to ask of TFC, but most of us have an opinion on whether they are doing as much as they could to put the finishing touches on the solid players (and big dollar transfers) that should be coming out of that academy.  

[RS]

46 minutes ago, costarg said:

You're really underestimating the process and what it takes for a Kone, Phonzie, Aaronson, etc...  to develop.  These kids aren't just born and then spotted on a pitch at 16, get his first cap and 18, and transfer overseas for miliions.

I find it very weird that you listed Kone in here when that's exactly what happened with him in Montreal, except at an older age. He's as much a Montreal academy product as Osorio is at TFC.

Overall I agree with most that say TFC could (and should) be getting more out of the academy. What I don't really like getting into is the hot takes at either end of the spectrum, so I'll leave it at that.

New year, new me. 😁

 

[El Hombre]

3 hours ago, Ruffian said:

I would say TFC has as many serviceable players on their team from their academy and they are getting as many minutes as those you mentioned here for Philly.

Yes, now they are, but that wasn't the point.  Look back to 2020, 2019, 2018 seasons and beyond.  That was the issue.

Highest minute total for an ex-academy player:

2020 - Liam Fraser, 18th on the team with 436 minutes.
2019 - Liam Fraser, 17th on the team with 810 minutes.
2018 - Jordan Hamilton, 17th on the team with 862 minutes.

As I've said, TFC is doing great these days and I'm all for it and they deserve the credit.  But I understand where past criticism comes from.  If TFC keep up what they're doing (from the past year), I guarantee you'll see a steady, competitive team team in 3 to 5 years.  Add a few gamebreakers to that and they'll be tough to beat.

[InglewoodJack]

28 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

If we are going down that road, here is a question to ponder.  

St Clair, Johnston, Kamal, Lareya, Buchanon, Larin..etc..most of the best players coming out of GTA lately never played in TFC academy and never played for canadian youth teams.  So they were either overlooked or rightly overlooked and developed later in NCAA/L10, etc.  Either way it seems like the most important time for their growth was 18-21.  So a lot of the second tier kids who didnt get to TFC/CDN youth teams were able to make it to the top....but the best prospects, the hyped guys at TFC with the best coaching (13-17years old), repping canada as kids, they fall behind once they turn 18/19 and never do get to the top of heap.  Is that because TFC academy doesnt get the best prospects as teeangers, the kids just arent good enough as Free Kick suggests, ie evaluating these kids is all screwed up??  Or would it be that they do get more than their share of the best talent in GTA, do well with them at the academy, but fumble the ball when they are 18-20 and very few of them pan out professionally?? 

Or maybe just a numbers game, so many other kids at other academies/schools that some of them are bound to succeed, while the limited number of kids in TFC academy arent enough to include someone good enough to be a top contributor to CMNT??  Maybe its too much to ask of TFC, but most of us have an opinion on whether they are doing as much as they could to put the finishing touches on the solid players (and big dollar transfers) that should be coming out of that academy.  

I'm sure it's a combination of all of this, but I think a major factor is that MLS academies don't face particularly good competition. In top European leagues, they develop players by sending them on loan to lower leagues, playing for the B team which is often playing against professional opposition, and when they finally crack the first team, they're way more prepared. With TFC, you play for TFC II, and your best professional experience before playing in a pretty strong league like MLS is NextPro whose quality is not so high. Look at two players who "should've" grown through TFC's academy- Stefan Mitrovic and Theo Corbeanu. Mitrovic went from TFC III (I think?) to Radnicki Nis, a team worse than every single MLS team, but better than every single CPL/USL/NextPro team, developed there, and is now at Red Star at 19. Corbeanu signed with a premier league team, went down to League One until he mastered the level, moved up to Championship, where he'll likely spend at least the next season, and position himself well to become a premier league player by 22 or 23. Those two players are likely more talented than almost every TFC academy player in the last few years, sure, but if you compare them to a player like Jayden Nelson a very good young player- they're all effectively the same age- theo has a very viable path to the premier league, probably within the next two years, and mitrovic is playing for a champions league regular, and will move up in the next few years, and Nelson is hoping that he finally gets a move to Europe, this year or next, where he can hope to crack a team in Belgium, or a similar level. No knock on the player, he's a fine talent, but you start to see that gap in development widen the longer a player is stuck playing terrible nextpro opposition, or desperate to crack an MLS team they might not be quite good enough to be a regular for yet.

I don't think it's just a Toronto thing- the issue is amplified because Toronto is Canada's soccer hotbed, and ever since Davies with Vancouver, you know the Toronto media absolutely needs their own world beater so each good prospect has to be spoken about in terms of being one of the best young players in the world. But you look at a player like Russell Rowe with Crew II who looked like prime Ronaldo in NextPro, but only made spot appearances with the big team who weren't even really chasing a title- as the clear cut best player in NextPro, he should technically be the top prospect in all of MLS (he's not because MLS NP isn't good). He's young and he will be good, but you wish that there was an intermediate level where he can go on loan and be challenged week in week out. This is made harder by the fact that you can't really loan out a North American player to League One or 2. Bundesliga or whatever, so options are limited.

[El Hombre]

If I'm looking at Canadian MLS as a whole, the immediate concern should really be with the Vancouver Whitecaps.  Outside of Thomas Hasal, there really hasn't been many opportunities for ex-academy players and I don't see any signs of that changing.  I'm the most pessismistic about them these days, especially because they have such a key player like Lowell Wright in their system.

But maybe that's a post for another thread.

[Bigandy]

4 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I'm sure it's a combination of all of this, but I think a major factor is that MLS academies don't face particularly good competition. In top European leagues, they develop players by sending them on loan to lower leagues, playing for the B team which is often playing against professional opposition, and when they finally crack the first team, they're way more prepared. With TFC, you play for TFC II, and your best professional experience before playing in a pretty strong league like MLS is NextPro whose quality is not so high. Look at two players who "should've" grown through TFC's academy- Stefan Mitrovic and Theo Corbeanu. Mitrovic went from TFC III (I think?) to Radnicki Nis, a team worse than every single MLS team, but better than every single CPL/USL/NextPro team, developed there, and is now at Red Star at 19. Corbeanu signed with a premier league team, went down to League One until he mastered the level, moved up to Championship, where he'll likely spend at least the next season, and position himself well to become a premier league player by 22 or 23. Those two players are likely more talented than almost every TFC academy player in the last few years, sure, but if you compare them to a player like Jayden Nelson a very good young player- they're all effectively the same age- theo has a very viable path to the premier league, probably within the next two years, and mitrovic is playing for a champions league regular, and will move up in the next few years, and Nelson is hoping that he finally gets a move to Europe, this year or next, where he can hope to crack a team in Belgium, or a similar level. No knock on the player, he's a fine talent, but you start to see that gap in development widen the longer a player is stuck playing terrible nextpro opposition, or desperate to crack an MLS team they might not be quite good enough to be a regular for yet.

I don't think it's just a Toronto thing- the issue is amplified because Toronto is Canada's soccer hotbed, and ever since Davies with Vancouver, you know the Toronto media absolutely needs their own world beater so each good prospect has to be spoken about in terms of being one of the best young players in the world. But you look at a player like Russell Rowe with Crew II who looked like prime Ronaldo in NextPro, but only made spot appearances with the big team who weren't even really chasing a title- as the clear cut best player in NextPro, he should technically be the top prospect in all of MLS (he's not because MLS NP isn't good). He's young and he will be good, but you wish that there was an intermediate level where he can go on loan and be challenged week in week out. This is made harder by the fact that you can't really loan out a North American player to League One or 2. Bundesliga or whatever, so options are limited.

Love this take.... Is the intermediary level a loan to CPL? I'm not convinced as i think the gap between mls and CPL is still too big but I think in a few years, it could bridge that gap. 

[Bison44]

4 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

If I'm looking at Canadian MLS as a whole, the immediate concern should really be with the Vancouver Whitecaps.  Outside of Thomas Hasal, there really hasn't been many opportunities for ex-academy players and I don't see any signs of that changing.  I'm the most pessismistic about them these days, especially because they have such a key player like Lowell Wright in their system.

But maybe that's a post for another thread.

Not so dissapointed with VWC.  If there were lots of BC prospects succeding that either were ignored by or avoided the whitecaps then people would be just as pissed.  Does the BC/Whitecaps problem go further up the supply chain?

[InglewoodJack]

7 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Love this take.... Is the intermediary level a loan to CPL? I'm not convinced as i think the gap between mls and CPL is still too big but I think in a few years, it could bridge that gap. 

I think in practice it is, but I think the gap is too wide for now. A player like Karifa Yao played very well and yet was dropped by CF Montreal who could absolutely use a guy in his position, implying they don't think he was good enough for what is expected to be a pretty poor team next year. Has there been any player who has played better after being transferred than Joel Waterman, a very good, but not-star level player? Curious to see how Sean Rea does this year for Montreal- he's the first player in my memory who has a shot of using the CPL as the developmental league it should be- Valour at 18/19, MLS at 20, then maybe Europe by 23? That's a pathway that is very similar to how an English or Spanish player might be developed.

[Bigandy]

9 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I think in practice it is, but I think the gap is too wide for now. A player like Karifa Yao played very well and yet was dropped by CF Montreal who could absolutely use a guy in his position, implying they don't think he was good enough for what is expected to be a pretty poor team next year. Has there been any player who has played better after being transferred than Joel Waterman, a very good, but not-star level player? Curious to see how Sean Rea does this year for Montreal- he's the first player in my memory who has a shot of using the CPL as the developmental league it should be- Valour at 18/19, MLS at 20, then maybe Europe by 23? That's a pathway that is very similar to how an English or Spanish player might be developed.

Yao getting picked up by VW makes me hope that the gap is not as big as it appears but I fear it is. If the CPL can have 4-6 loan players or transfer to the MLS that end up at a watermans level then I think the CPL will have bridged the gap. 

 

[Dominic94]

2 hours ago, VinceA said:

I think one huge issue has been the hype machine. The president of TFC saying JMR is Phonzie-level immediately puts a ridiculous amount of pressure on a kid who isn't even the same physical profile. Plus being a wide player guarantees those comparisons, and then $$ evaluations. Then you have his injuries and the fact that even healthy there hasn't been anything about him to actually suggest being a world beater. 

He's already on an uphill battle because his own club has touted him as being on the same level as arguably the best talent to be exported from MLS.

His club wasn’t alone and others last year put him on Reyna level…

[Obinna]

40 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

His club wasn’t alone and others last year put him on Reyna level…

To whomever said that: Reyna and Rutty should never have been uttered in the same sentence.

[costarg]

5 hours ago, RS said:

I find it very weird that you listed Kone in here when that's exactly what happened with him in Montreal, except at an older age. He's as much a Montreal academy product as Osorio is at TFC.

Overall I agree with most that say TFC could (and should) be getting more out of the academy. What I don't really like getting into is the hot takes at either end of the spectrum, so I'll leave it at that.

New year, new me. 😁

 

Exactly, and we know Kone is a freak, not the norm.  Yet, the TFC defenders on here seem to think that's how its supposed to work.  

[BearcatSA]

6 hours ago, VinceA said:

I think one huge issue has been the hype machine. The president of TFC saying JMR is Phonzie-level immediately puts a ridiculous amount of pressure on a kid who isn't even the same physical profile.

Looking back on this 53 page (and counting) thread, the hype machine had plenty of other contributors far earlier on.  But I agree, those kind of recent comments certainly stoke the fires of expectation more so.  

 

 

[VinceA]

10 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

Looking back on this 53 page (and counting) thread, the hype machine had plenty of other contributors far earlier on.  But I agree, those kind of recent comments certainly stoke the fires of expectation more so.  

 

 

It's one thing for fans, but a top executive spewing hype like this is a whole other level. You don't get articles on news sites about a kid's potential if it's just fans talking about it. At least not ones with any real weight.

[h coach]

8 hours ago, costarg said:

You're really underestimating the process and what it takes for a Kone, Phonzie, Aaronson, etc...  to develop.  These kids aren't just born and then spotted on a pitch at 16, get his first cap and 18, and transfer overseas for miliions.  You should work for TFC, you'd fit right in with their mentality and development plan.

Just a hint..... the organization/team plays a huge part in the kids success or failure.  it isn't the kids failing TFC, it's TFC failing the kids.

Didnt the W Cup tv show on Kone say he was cut by the Impact academy 3x?🤔

[baulderdash77]

6 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Yao getting picked up by VW makes me hope that the gap is not as big as it appears but I fear it is. If the CPL can have 4-6 loan players or transfer to the MLS that end up at a watermans level then I think the CPL will have bridged the gap. 

 

I think that the difference from MLS DP or TAM to CPL is pretty cavernous.

I don’t think the gap between a good to very good CPL player to roster MLS player is as big as we once thought.  We’ve seen a fair number of MLS/CPL matches and they are pretty competitive for the most part.  The MLS team usually comes on top but there have been a fair number of draws and a few upsets.

Also the CPL is littered with former MLS players.

Finally-  Lucas MacNaughton and Joel Waterman were good players in the CPL but not best XI and have turned into solid MLS players.

I think the CPL is a big step up from MLS Next.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Think it's a stretch to call Lucas MacNaughton a solid MLS player at this point given how TFC's season went last year and Waterman not being rated as a best XI player in CanPL maybe says more about the people doing the rating than anything else. He appears to have been in the best XI where professional scouts were concerned. What basis do you have for rating CanPL as a big step up from Next Pro beyond that being what you want to be the case?

[dyslexic nam]

He explained it.  We have now seen multiple V Cup matches between CPL and MLS sides over multiple years and while the MLS sides have won the majority they are generally quite competitive games and there have been a couple of examples where CPL teams have gotten positive results.  That is the most direct evidence you could ask for that the gap isn’t massive.