Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty

[InglewoodJack]

On 1/13/2023 at 7:15 PM, Bison44 said:

So you think he would have gone to a Edmonton CPL team at 14??  He was in the VAN Academy at 15 already.....MLS at 15, i think second youngest ever....where do you think he had time to spend a year in the CPL???  He already was the youngest ever player to score in USL just over 15, second youngest ever to start in MLS at 15 etc etc etc.  I get what your saying, for the top level kids a stint in CPL as a teenager might be a jumpstart to their career.  But I think comparing our kids to european kids isnt really helpful.  Our kids with our climate/culture, they are a year or two behind, which is why I think so many of our current CMNT guys went the college route and didnt hit their top gear at 17-18, but more like 21.  With the obvious exclusions of wunderkids like Davies and David.  

I think he would've been good enough to play for a hypothetical Edmonton CPL team at 15, yeah. With Davies, everything worked out well, Bayern Munich recruited him from Vancouver, and the rest is history. But for the next Davies, I would rather him play in a Canadian professional league for a year as a teenager than play in some rinky dink academy against terrible opposition. I think that gives local fans something exciting, which boosts attendance, I think it gives players more visibility when they are younger, and that overall grows the game.

We are "behind" for all of the reasons you mentioned, but you don't think we can help close that gap by offering young players better avenues to face better competition? Look at Alistair Johnston- a top 5 best Canadian player. He faced his legit opposition at 22, and now at 24, he's starting for Celtic. Imagine if he had his CPL start at 18 instead of spending 4 years in the NCAA? He could've played 18-19 for Forge, signed by CF Montreal at 20, by 22, he's in Europe, and he's now in his 2nd or 3rd season at Celtic, fully ready to make the jump to the premier league. Obviously injecting a lot of creativity into this scenario, but for all our guys who played in the NCAA while their european counterparts were playing pro ball, you think at least 2-3 of them could be even further along than they already are.

On 1/15/2023 at 10:53 PM, Kent said:

I think the idea is that he could have potentially chosen staying at home in Edmonton at age 15 and maybe 16 instead of leaving his family for Vancouver. Davies did have FC Edmonton available to him in the NASL, but still the point remains. If another Davies or David popped up in a CPL city, they could potentially get their start in CPL and tear up the league and then get transferred out. Either straight to Europe or via MLS first. I agree with @InglewoodJack that it would raise the profile of the league (but I do think 100 Watermans help a lot as well). Davies and David are good examples for the fact that they were basically ready made stars without real development from MLS academies (no disrespect to what Vancouver did for Davies once he was with the first team). David chose to avoid MLS. He might have chosen to avoid CPL as well, but maybe not. MLS is possibly more possessive of their players, if CPL is viewed to be more fair and more willing to move players on than MLS, then maybe someone with the same mindset as David decides against MLS, but in favour of CPL.

100 Watermans help a lot as well, any sign of good players who came from the CPL is a good sign, but unless some of those players become stars, play for competitive national teams (not just ours), there's a cap to that. For David, he explicitly didn't care about North American soccer, and he did move to Gent at 18, but prior to that, it was local, amateur soccer for him. I think a year at Atletico Ottawa at 17 would've been awesome for the fans, and perhaps that could've elevated his profile and gotten his first transfer to somewhere bigger. He went from playing locally in Ottawa to bagging 13 goals in Belgium as an 18 year old. That's insane. A little more professional experience might've made him even better at that age. Before Genk, he was rejected by Stuttgart and Salzburg. Had he signed with either of those teams, that premier league transfer could've happened a bit sooner too. Kone too- rumor was a team in belgium was getting close before Montreal signed him. If Montreal had a CPL team, he would've been good enough to play for them a year before, and that move to Europe would've happened at 19, not 20.

I'm using the example of our two best by far players at by far the biggest clubs, so regardless of their development, they got to where they needed to be, but if anything, it shows how great these guys are when the development opportunities in Canada put us at such a disadvantage. I think that Canada has very little options for player development between the ages of 16-20, the most important developmental years in a player's career, and having a league that can realistically play those players and showcase them to the world would really help that.

[Dominic94]

I agree, at the U20 our CPL guys looked better.

We will produce more players now that we are getting pro minutes earlier.

[VinceA]

31 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

I agree, at the U20 our CPL guys looked better.

We will produce more players now that we are getting pro minutes earlier.

Part of it though is we need to see those players go pro now. Don't think there are any 2005-born guys signed yet to CPL deals.

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Dominic94 said:

I agree, at the U20 our CPL guys looked better.

We will produce more players now that we are getting pro minutes earlier.

I look at a guy like Lowell Wright and wonder if it might have been better to bet on himself playing another year and producing in CPL then using that to springboard into a better move abroad.

I'm not sure that Whitecaps Next Pro was the way to go in his particular case.  I hope I am wrong and he indeed develops into a significant contibutor with the big club this year.

[Aird25]

3 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

100 Watermans help a lot as well, any sign of good players who came from the CPL is a good sign, but unless some of those players become stars, play for competitive national teams (not just ours), there's a cap to that.

Ahmed Alghamdi got his pro start with Pacific at 16 and he's played in Saudi Arabia's last 2 matches. They are currently ranked higher than Canada.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Aird25
Harsh

[InglewoodJack]

2 hours ago, Dominic94 said:

I agree, at the U20 our CPL guys looked better.

We will produce more players now that we are getting pro minutes earlier.

Yeah, case in point that we need our young players to go pro in Canada before they move elsewhere. Lowell Wright was our best player, but, and not to take anything away from him, is he even projected to be that good? Will he ever play in a top 5 league? Doubtful, but he has more pro experience than any of our other youth players, and it shows in how good he is. While most of our youth players in europe celebrated their 18th, then 19th birthdays being so far down the depth chart their coach probably can't remember their names, Wright was playing competitive soccer. Even Rida Zouhir who was supposed to be (and still may be) an amazing prospect went from being the great next thing to a complete afterthought because Kone came out of nowhere. Would've liked to see Montreal loan him out, or have him come up through a hypothetical Quebec CPL team instead of through IMFC academy.

25 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Somehow, I think you're both living in a fantasy world, and also ignoring obvious examples of things you say need to happen. Ahmed Alghamdi got his pro start with Pacific at 16 and he's played in Saudi Arabia's last 2 matches. They are currently ranked higher than Canada.

Davies and David were in Europe before CPL even started, and that is for two very different reasons. NCAA and MLS academies have been, and will continue to be an important development pathways, along with many others. It won't always be L1-CPL-MLS-Europe, certainly not at this stage in the league, and I see no reason why we would want it to be

That's one example, but there needs to be more, IMO. Also, Alghamdi was playing local soccer in Vancouver before signing to Pacific- would he already be on SA's national team and playing pro in SA if he had gone the traditional USports route? I doubt at this age he would be.

Both of those players were good enough to bypass a lot of the traditional developmental routes because they're that good. But for players at an elite but slightly lower level, that extra year or two of professional experience does so much more than any of those alternative routes. The original point was that MLS academies suck for development because the competition in next pro is so terrible that they would be better served playing against professional men in the CPL. As well, to "bridge the gap" between the CPL and MLS, you need to increase revenue, which means increased fan engagement, which means giving fans an exciting product which I think would be better served with the next Jonathan David than it would with the next 100 Joel Watermans. It's far from the only thing that needs to happen, but showcasing great young talent in the CPL helps grow the league, it helps grow our talent pool, and it gets prospects where they need to be before they transfer to bigger clubs.

It'll never be the only, or even the biggest developmental route, but of all the L1O, NCAA, and U-Sports players that have been successful in achieving a higher level, my guess is quite a few with them went that route because they had pretty much zero other options to turn professional. That has, and should continue to change.

Edited January 17, 2023 by InglewoodJack
the post was so long it broke the site code

[Dominic94]

17 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Yeah, case in point that we need our young players to go pro in Canada before they move elsewhere. Lowell Wright was our best player, but, and not to take anything away from him, is he even projected to be that good? Will he ever play in a top 5 league? Doubtful, but he has more pro experience than any of our other youth players, and it shows in how good he is. While most of our youth players in europe celebrated their 18th, then 19th birthdays being so far down the depth chart their coach probably can't remember their names, Wright was playing competitive soccer. Even Rida Zouhir who was supposed to be (and still may be) an amazing prospect went from being the great next thing to a complete afterthought because Kone came out of nowhere. Would've liked to see Montreal loan him out, or have him come up through a hypothetical Quebec CPL team instead of through IMFC academy.

Wright could eventually play in a top 5 league, I do hope the White caps play him, because if not staying in York was the better option forsure.

[InglewoodJack]

4 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

Wright could eventually play in a top 5 league, I do hope the White caps play him, because if not staying in York was the better option forsure.

Perhaps he will, but that year in the CPL made him a better player than all of those prospects who were recruited by professional academies which is the important part.

[Bigandy]

12 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

Wright could eventually play in a top 5 league, I do hope the White caps play him, because if not staying in York was the better option forsure.

I dont know much about wright but is this a statement of "you never know" or does he genuinely have that much potential?

Davies was 17 when BM signed him
David was starting for Gent when he was 18 
Kone was 18-19ish when he was identified by montreal
Ugbo was on loan in the english pyramid at 18
Staq was playing for chaves at 18/19

It seems that wright playing mls next pro at 19 is miles off of a top 5 league.

[BearcatSA]

3 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Perhaps he will, but that year in the CPL made him a better player than all of those prospects who were recruited by professional academies which is the important part.

And to scaffold on to this, if a kid in Edmonton, Calgary, or Wnnipeg areas could work his way directly into one of those CPL set ups, earn minutes, and demonstrate high ceiling, why get involved in the Whitecaps reserve system at all?

 

[Ruffian]

19 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I dont know much about wright but is this a statement of "you never know" or does he genuinely have that much potential?

Davies was 17 when BM signed him
David was starting for Gent when he was 18 
Kone was 18-19ish when he was identified by montreal
Ugbo was on loan in the english pyramid at 18
Staq was playing for chaves at 18/19

It seems that wright playing mls next pro at 19 is miles off of a top 5 league.

And Buchanan, Larin, Miller and Johnston still in college at these ages and older. you never know.

[Kent]

33 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I dont know much about wright but is this a statement of "you never know" or does he genuinely have that much potential?

Davies was 17 when BM signed him
David was starting for Gent when he was 18 
Kone was 18-19ish when he was identified by montreal
Ugbo was on loan in the english pyramid at 18
Staq was playing for chaves at 18/19

It seems that wright playing mls next pro at 19 is miles off of a top 5 league.

I think he has a wide potential range from boom to bust. As a 17 year old with York United he scored 6 goals and 3 assists (turned 18 late in the season, so some of that might have been as an 18 year old). The following season he wasn't getting much service and after 9 games was shipped over to Vancouver. He wasn't scoring goals, but he seemed to have added some fantastic passing to his repertoire. I don't know what has been going on since he went to Vancouver.

My impression was that he had some really great tools (finishing ability, powerful shot with either foot, passing, decent phone booth type dribbling), with the potential to be a top 5 league kind of player. But I'm not sure if he has the work ethic to get there.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Kent
Grammar

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

And Buchanan, Larin, Miller and Johnston still in college at these ages and older. you never know.

For sure, but at this point, none of them are top 5 league players so they arent viable examples (even though we expect buchanan to become this player). 

I guess the spirit of my question is about his current scouting report. -" Is wright a prospect who currently holds a ceiling projected to be around a top 5 league, or is he another player with promise and you never know.... he could turn into messi one day" 

[Ruffian]

4 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

For sure, but at this point, none of them are top 5 league players so they arent viable examples (even though we expect buchanan to become this player). 

I guess the spirit of my question is about his current scouting report. -" Is wright a prospect who currently holds a ceiling projected to be around a top 5 league, or is he another player with promise and you never know.... he could turn into messi one day" 

Only David and Davies on your list are a step above in quality of those I mentioned. And of those two, when David turned 18 he was still playing for an amateur team in Ottawa.

[InglewoodJack]

24 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

Buchanan

He's the one I think could've benefited from the CPL the most. With how fast he's risen- within 2 years (?) from an NCAA player to rumoured to be going to Milan or Juve (don't remember the exact teams anymore), imagine if this whole process would've started a few years earlier?

The fact our players are going from turning pro at 21 to getting serious european attention barely 2-3 years later should tell everyone that all our players need is exposure, the younger the better. We're a country of 37 million people being told we can't compete with countries that are a third our size? It's not because our players aren't as good (not even thinking of all those surefire premier league players that just decided to play hockey at age 6 either), it's because they don't have the professional experience. European teams pay the stupid transfer fees for players 22 and under. the fact that most of our best players were only in their first pro season, if that, at that age is a big problem.

[Bigandy]

24 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

Only David and Davies on your list are a step above in quality of those I mentioned. And of those two, when David turned 18 he was still playing for an amateur team in Ottawa.

Staq is waaaaay above larin miller and johnstone and is better than buchanan. Theres no comparison whatsoever. I honestly think that larin miller and johnstone would feel offended on behalf of staq at the suggestion that they are at his level.

David joined Genk in Jan 2018, his 18th birthday was in Jan 2018. He couldnt sign a contract in europe until 18 which is why he was signed in Jan 2018 (after trialing in 2017 and most likely having a verbal agreement to sign as soon as hes 18). He 100% was playing for Gent when he was 18.
 
Kone shouldnt technically be on the list because hes not in a top 5 league. However, I expect he will be our 4th/5th best player if he keeps developing this way and is likely on to serie A soon. 

Ugbo is in poor form but hes done enough to earn a top 5 league move. I am not saying the other guys cannot, but its hard to discuss ifs and could bes when all we really have for a fact. Hes most likely on the move out of a top 5 league so its not so much about his current quality that I am talking about, but his trajectory as a youth to get to a top 5 league. 

Miller hasnt earned himself a move to europe yet and is not nearly at the level of staq or kone, or ugbo.(i think if we had a bench warmer CB in ligue 1, he takes miller spot but i do see how its debatable)

Johnstone is looking good in scotland after 2 weeks but its a massive step up to go to a top 5 league. Its too early to say hes top 5 league quality. Again, until he moves to a top 5 league, he cant be used as an example of someone who made it to a top 5 league. 

Larin is always seeming to be on the cusp of becoming a top 5 league player, he just cant be used as an example until that time.

Bucahanan is almost destined to be a top 5 league player imo, but again, until it happens, he cant be used as an example.


The main point i am trying to make is that theres scouting reports on players that can narrow down the liklihood of their potential. Its often not correct but its the best we have and I believe using historical comparisons, stats etc is better than just saying "you never know. Any player at any given day could turn into a superstar". If thats how an analysis is done then it implies development is a roll of the dice, rather than a systematic approach attempting to maximize high potential youths who may or may not excel. 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Bigandy

[Bigandy]

8 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

rumoured to be going to Milan or Juve (don't remember the exact teams anymore),

Intermilan as a replacement for dumfries at RWB

[Bison44]

26 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

He's the one I think could've benefited from the CPL the most. With how fast he's risen- within 2 years (?) from an NCAA player to rumoured to be going to Milan or Juve (don't remember the exact teams anymore), imagine if this whole process would've started a few years earlier?

The fact our players are going from turning pro at 21 to getting serious european attention barely 2-3 years later should tell everyone that all our players need is exposure, the younger the better. We're a country of 37 million people being told we can't compete with countries that are a third our size? It's not because our players aren't as good (not even thinking of all those surefire premier league players that just decided to play hockey at age 6 either), it's because they don't have the professional experience. European teams pay the stupid transfer fees for players 22 and under. the fact that most of our best players were only in their first pro season, if that, at that age is a big problem.

Buchanon is in his 5th pro season, NCAA was in 2018.  The place to start sooner is with academies and better coaching  earlier. Broaden the base of the pyramid etc.  Then more kids might be pro ready (CPL) when they are 17.  I dont know if these guys we are talking about were anywhere near ready to play in a CPL level league at 17.  Johnston, Buchanon, Miller etc, the wunder kids sure and maybe Larin because he tore up NCAA as a freshman, but the other guys took time.  

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

10 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

And to scaffold on to this, if a kid in Edmonton, Calgary, or Wnnipeg areas could work his way directly into one of those CPL set ups, earn minutes, and demonstrate high ceiling, why get involved in the Whitecaps reserve system at all?

What is missing in CanPL is the merit based academy and something comparable to MLS Next for youth players in the 14 to 18 sort of age range. That's what took Alphonso Davies to Vancouver at 15 at a time when FC Edmonton was in the NASL and doing a lot more on having a youth academy than CanPL clubs are at the moment. The reason it is missing is that it is very expensive to operate a setup like that.

[gigi riva]

I am hoping for Rutty to really show his potential this year and I hope he gets that chance and does something with it . Would it be a huge stretch to say  It is make or Break for him this year .

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

19 hours ago, Kent said:

I think he has a wide potential range from boom to bust. As a 17 year old with York United he scored 6 goals and 3 assists (turned 18 late in the season, so some of that might have been as an 18 year old). The following season he wasn't getting much service and after 9 games was shipped over to Vancouver...

The problems with CanPL from his standpoint may have been that the salaries are not exactly stellar and there's no reserve team focusing on development for the future if a slightly older player like Osaze de Rosario who is a bit further along comes in and steals his thunder and hoovers up the required U-21 minutes so there's no pressing need to play him if it doesn't help the team to win in the here and now. From York United's perspective a transfer fee with a sell-on clause with someone else doing the development probably also looks like a good deal at that point.

Think once a player turns 18 there are still very strong arguments for a move over to Europe for Jonathan David level prospects if a relatively strong European club is interested, or taking an NCAA full ride scholarship if a player doesn't want to put all their eggs in one basket in career terms. What CanPL does is provide a way for players to give professional soccer a go close to home who may otherwise have wound up on a semi-professional side in some small Norwegian fishing village as the first rung on the ladder or walked away from the sport altogether and got on with the rest of their life.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[BearcatSA]

Next Pro will be essentially an emergency reserve team for MLS clubs.  Even Schuster referenced that in any interview last year.  Instead of having to graduate them at 19, they graduate at 23 or 24.  To me, it's not really a development path for the future but a holding tank for the "now."  A couple of players might then get a one or two year token stint on the bench of the senior club before they move on to elsewhere, likely CPL but also USL or lower level outside of the NA, yet this was already happening prior to Next Pro with the academy age-out.  I imagine that the attractiveness of the MLS system compared to CPL for younger players is salary.  But even if you are still on relative peanuts, if you're an 18 or 19 year old doing very well in this league with regular starting minutes, impressive contributions, and big upside, why not bet on yourself?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

36 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

...But even if you are still on relative peanuts, if you're an 18 or 19 year old doing very well in this league with regular starting minutes, impressive contributions, and big upside, why not bet on yourself?

Different pathways will work best for different players. If you check out the U-21 minutes from last season you'll find that we are not talking about a huge number of players who can realistically use CanPL in the manner you are describing at that age and some U-21 players get limited minutes at an age when they really do need to play to develop so it's not without risk.

Personally I'd advise any relative of mine to go down the NCAA pathway and take the academic side seriously unless they were can't miss level on playing at a very high level in which case I'd suggest that Europe is where they need to be ASAP.

Think it's not at all clear yet what Next Pro is going to be yet. More independent teams appear to be joining beyond Rochester. Haven't been following closely but Cleveland and a Carolina team? The roster rules appear to be configured so that both the taxi squad approach you describe or a glorified academy team are very much possible depending on how far the I/O wants to push the boat out financially.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[InglewoodJack]

5 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Personally I'd advise any relative of mine to go down the NCAA pathway and take the academic side seriously unless they were can't miss level on playing at a very high level in which case I'd suggest that Europe is where they need to be ASAP.

For the 99% of people who don't have any real professional potential, I would agree with regards to NCAA. But for the tweeners- players who develop between 18-22 and aren't world beaters, that slows down their career. A guy like Alistair Johnston probably wasn't convinced that he had a guaranteed professional career unless much later into his NCAA career. A player of his skill level having an avenue where they can focus completely on the sport without the academics helps them reach that path much quicker. If the pro career doesn't work, they can always go to school at 25.

As for europe, academies there don't care about our players unless they're alphonso davies level. of all of our sub 20-year old players in Europe, I would be shocked if more than one of them ever started significant games for our national team right now. they're likely all going to bust.

[narduch]

36 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

Next Pro will be essentially an emergency reserve team for MLS clubs.  Even Schuster referenced that in any interview last year.  Instead of having to graduate them at 19, they graduate at 23 or 24.  To me, it's not really a development path for the future but a holding tank for the "now."  A couple of players might then get a one or two year token stint on the bench of the senior club before they move on to elsewhere, likely CPL but also USL or lower level outside of the NA, yet this was already happening prior to Next Pro with the academy age-out.  I imagine that the attractiveness of the MLS system compared to CPL for younger players is salary.  But even if you are still on relative peanuts, if you're an 18 or 19 year old doing very well in this league with regular starting minutes, impressive contributions, and big upside, why not bet on yourself?

I doubt Next Pro pays all that well. American professional leagues are notorious for paying shit salaries for their minor leagues (MLB, etc). I doubt MLS would be much different.

It is true Next Pro works well for a taxi squad. But it is only useful to a point. There are limits on the number of times a single player can get called up.

How many Next Pro players got signed by their MLS senior clubs? I can only think of 3 (the 2 Canadians at Columbus and a kid at Houston). Although I admit I may have missed some.

I wonder if that is part of the reason why Telfer and Awuah signed for USLC from Next Pro.