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Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty


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1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

He explained it.  We have now seen multiple V Cup matches between CPL and MLS sides over multiple years and while the MLS sides have won the majority they are generally quite competitive games and there have been a couple of examples where CPL teams have gotten positive results.  That is the most direct evidence you could ask for that the gap isn’t massive.  

Couldn't the same be said about rhe USOC results that USL-C have had against MLS? Should we likewise say the gap between those isn't massive due to Cup results?

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In the past dyslexic man has stated he would not engage me in conversation on here. No idea why he has suddenly changed from that posture and would prefer that he would have stuck to that given his past behaviour towards me on here, which I found unacceptable.

I only saw his post because someone replied to it. Worth noting that Next Pro teams do not participate in the Canadian Championship. Only the MLS sides do, so that competition can't be used to gauge the relative strengths of CanPL and Next Pro.

What I posted was:

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

...What basis do you have for rating CanPL as a big step up from Next Pro beyond that being what you want to be the case?

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How many Next Pro players have transferred to the Swedish or Polish top flights this winter?

My guess is the number is zero.

Another reason why the CPL is better for development is the fact that the games matter more. You are playing for a D1 national championship.

Whereas Next Pro is a glorified reserve league. And I am not sure they will ever be able to shake that off.

The stadiums are so empty every match probably feels like a friendly or semi-pro.

Edited by narduch
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2 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

He explained it.  We have now seen multiple V Cup matches between CPL and MLS sides over multiple years and while the MLS sides have won the majority they are generally quite competitive games and there have been a couple of examples where CPL teams have gotten positive results.  That is the most direct evidence you could ask for that the gap isn’t massive.  

Its pretty obvious at this point that OTP has a major hard-on for all things USSF-MLS.

He thinks soccer in Canada would be better served by continuing to hitch on to their coat tails.

I disagree with him completely The fact that MLS continues to discriminate against Canadian players is reason enough for us to chart our own path.

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14 minutes ago, narduch said:

How many Next Pro players have transferred to the Swedish or Polish top flights this winter?

My guess is the number is zero.

Another reason why the CPL is better for development is the fact that the games matter more. You are playing for a D1 national championship.

Whereas Next Pro is a glorified reserve league. And I am not sure they will ever be able to shake that off.

The stadiums are so empty every match probably feels like a friendly or semi-pro.

I don't think its fair to use transfers as a justification for league quality. Next pro, like you say, is a reserve league. The players are younger and use this league as a stepping stone for the MLS. Its highly unlikely that a young player at this caliber would want to disrupt their development and go to europe when they are on the verge of an MLS squad. They have time on their side and should be looking to complete this step before going onto the next. Also, the league is relatively new so its tough to compare apples to apples. 

CPL players who are transferring to europe (i assume your talking zator and bustos) are guys who are much older and have spent several years in the league. They have developed enough that they are ready to take the next step. 

None of this proves or disproves the quality of the league. I think the majority of people also believe that CPL is a better league.

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A reminder that was posted was:

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

...What basis do you have for rating CanPL as a big step up from Next Pro beyond that being what you want to be the case?

and that at no point in recent posts have I made any statement as to whether I thought CanPL or Next Pro had a big gulf between them last season and in which direction. How would you have even gone about watching Next Pro to a sufficient extent to even feel qualified to judge that? I would not feel confident making sweeping statements in that regard.

My guess would be though that just as there are players who are close but no cigar where being of MLS calibre is concerned in a Canadian context the same is also very much true in an American one as well, so it's not hard to assemble a set of rosters in either context that could give an MLS roster a good game in a cup competition, especially if the MLS teams are doing some squad rotation. 

Worth noting that I have frequently argued that affiliated teams in CanPL would have been a good option for bridging the development gap between the academy setups and MLS rosters for TFC, the Whitecaps and the Impact and that finding a way to make that happen was a missed opportunity for both parties. Hardly the actions of somebody who thinks CanPL is a waste of time.

Would have been good to see what a player like Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty could do in that context back when he was 16 or 17 rather than having him hidden away in a competition that is considerably less visible. Having most of the best Canadian prospects going through CanPL would have been good for that reason but won't be happening now that Next Pro has emerged.

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7 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

 

Worth noting that I have frequently argued that affiliated teams in CanPL would have been a good option for bridging the development gap between the academy setups and MLS rosters for TFC, the Whitecaps and the Impact and that finding a way to make that happen was a missed opportunity for both parties. Hardly the actions of somebody who thinks CanPL is a waste of time.

Would have been an absolute disaster for CPL had they allowed MLS affiliates in 2019 and then they all backed out 2-3 years later to join Next Pro.

CPL made the right decision here. You keep belabouring this point but are dead wrong here.

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2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

In the past dyslexic man has stated he would not engage me in conversation on here. No idea why he has suddenly changed from that posture and would prefer that he would have stuck to that given his past behaviour towards me on here, which I found unacceptable.

I only saw his post because someone replied to it. Worth noting that Next Pro teams do not participate in the Canadian Championship. Only the MLS sides do, so that competition can't be used to gauge the relative strengths of CanPL and Next Pro.

What I posted was:

Alright.   Given your need to preface everything with douchy comments I will throw you back on the “fuck off” list.  

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10 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Alright.   Given your need to preface everything with douchy comments I will throw you back on the “fuck off” list.  

I miss the days when he only polluted he CPL sub forum.

I guess he ran out of negative things to say there.

I do find it funny that the only topic that he seems interested in is defending MLS and USSF.

 

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13 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

I think that the difference from MLS DP or TAM to CPL is pretty cavernous.

I don’t think the gap between a good to very good CPL player to roster MLS player is as big as we once thought.  We’ve seen a fair number of MLS/CPL matches and they are pretty competitive for the most part.  The MLS team usually comes on top but there have been a fair number of draws and a few upsets.

I 100% think there isn't a huge gap between domestic players of both leagues, it is just that MLS can attract much better international big money players or good young prospects from South America or wherever. I think your average CPL starter would do fine in the MLS, the only thing is lower end CPL depth players aren't too good. Domestic MLS players are still generally at a higher level but for sure it's not a big gap.

It's not a shock to me if a CPL team pulls off a win in the Canadian Championship, it's just moments and players like these that give MLS teams an advantage:

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CRIIPPPESS!! Back with the "CPL should have been a MLS reserve league" baloney.  Give it up.  Now we have the CPL and your precious CDN MLS reserve sides in NEXTPRO.  You should be happy as a clam but you are not, you constantly throw shade on the CPL and then claim to be its biggest fan. As if anyone could forget your constant negative comments for the last 5-6 years even though any normal person would agree we have seen tons of encouraging things associated with the start of the CPL.   

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20 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Yao getting picked up by VW makes me hope that the gap is not as big as it appears but I fear it is. If the CPL can have 4-6 loan players or transfer to the MLS that end up at a watermans level then I think the CPL will have bridged the gap. 

 

Yeah, this doesn't mean that Yao sucks and I hope that Vancouver gives him a shot and he capitalizes, just that you would expect some of the best MLS prospects in the CPL to be highly rated, especially for a team like Montreal that has already lost AJ, is likely to lose Kamal Miller, and even though I don't think the Waterman rumors have much to them, I would imagine Montreal is looking for an afforable young option at fullback.

I think it's less about the CPL producing guys like Waterman, and more about the CPL needing to produce a Jonathan David. I think you can find more than enough Watermans from League One, Championship, South America, etc., but the CPL needs to prove to teams and young players that there is a viable path to european stardom that begins in Canada, and they need to give fans something really exciting to cheer for on and off the field. As a country, we love the CHL because you're watching the "stars of tomorrow"- having the same thing with soccer would bring in more fan engagement, which would raise the competitive quality of the league, attract more foreign players, and then you would really start bridging the gap.

I think Ollie Basset won the CPL MVP this year- no? His highest level of european soccer is the English National Division which I believe is the 7th tier? If the CPL was able to attract players from League One or Serie B, that would go a long way in bridging the gap between CPL and MLS. We talk so much about Canadian players which are obviously the most important, but a big factor in improving the quality of the league would be improving the quality of foreign players who come here and see the CPL as a viable pathway to a successful soccer career, whether it's in MLS, or whether they can go back to Europe in a few years.

All this easier said than done, of course, but I look at where MLS made their big jumps- Clint Dempsey going to England, David Beckham coming to LA, Davies effectively putting Canada on the map by transferring to Bayern, you can point to all of those events as impacting the competitive quality of the league and also getting more fans excited about it.

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16 hours ago, VinceA said:

It's one thing for fans, but a top executive spewing hype like this is a whole other level. You don't get articles on news sites about a kid's potential if it's just fans talking about it. At least not ones with any real weight.

No, I agree.  It's a needless comment and I think he'd like that one back.  I'm just pointing out that it doesn't take much around here for the hype bandwagon to suddenly get crowded for a very young guy...with TFC.

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1 hour ago, BearcatSA said:

No, I agree.  It's a needless comment and I think he'd like that one back.  I'm just pointing out that it doesn't take much around here for the hype bandwagon to suddenly get crowded for a very young guy...with TFC.

I see this sentiment echoed on here and I think it's overblown.

There are lots of hyped up youngsters on the other MLS clubs and in CPL who are followed and discussed closely, but TFC just happens to have had a year in which a ton of teenagers/early 20s prospects played big minutes in MLS.

That tends to spur conversation on here, but the downside is that every thread on a TFC prospect devolves into an overarching evaluation about the club's entire youth development program from 2007 to present, which in turn inflates the page numbers as everyone chimes in. It happened on the threads dedicated to Nelson, Shaffelburg, Akinola, etc. and now it's JMR's turn.

 

 

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3 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

Yeah, this doesn't mean that Yao sucks and I hope that Vancouver gives him a shot and he capitalizes, just that you would expect some of the best MLS prospects in the CPL to be highly rated, especially for a team like Montreal that has already lost AJ, is likely to lose Kamal Miller, and even though I don't think the Waterman rumors have much to them, I would imagine Montreal is looking for an afforable young option at fullback.

I think it's less about the CPL producing guys like Waterman, and more about the CPL needing to produce a Jonathan David. I think you can find more than enough Watermans from League One, Championship, South America, etc., but the CPL needs to prove to teams and young players that there is a viable path to european stardom that begins in Canada, and they need to give fans something really exciting to cheer for on and off the field. As a country, we love the CHL because you're watching the "stars of tomorrow"- having the same thing with soccer would bring in more fan engagement, which would raise the competitive quality of the league, attract more foreign players, and then you would really start bridging the gap.

I think Ollie Basset won the CPL MVP this year- no? His highest level of european soccer is the English National Division which I believe is the 7th tier? If the CPL was able to attract players from League One or Serie B, that would go a long way in bridging the gap between CPL and MLS. We talk so much about Canadian players which are obviously the most important, but a big factor in improving the quality of the league would be improving the quality of foreign players who come here and see the CPL as a viable pathway to a successful soccer career, whether it's in MLS, or whether they can go back to Europe in a few years.

All this easier said than done, of course, but I look at where MLS made their big jumps- Clint Dempsey going to England, David Beckham coming to LA, Davies effectively putting Canada on the map by transferring to Bayern, you can point to all of those events as impacting the competitive quality of the league and also getting more fans excited about it.

Interesting that you see raising the ceiling as the way to growing the league. My initial thoughts are to raise the floor. Obv a davies coming through CPL would be great but I think i would prefer to have 5 players going to MLS and hopefully 1-2 of those will go to europe one day, per year (from the perspective of growing the CPL. If we are talking CMNT then another davies would be huge). 

My thought is that a davies going thru CPL will bring some prestige and a slight increase in popularity, however by the time the player becomes big, he will no longer be in CPL and therefore CPL doesnt really see the benefits. Even if it does get popularity,  I think its hard to sign better internationals because of the low CPL wages. 

However, if you raise the floor, then the entire level of the league will improve with more consistency than having 1 superstar. 

Perhaps im just pessimistic that the CPL would be able to ever produce a davies. If basset is our best, then we have a LONG way before we can think about producing a top end talent. It sounds like youre using the MLS as a blueprint for success which is logical. I just have a hard time believing the CPL can be much much much more than what is currently. 
 

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Is it just my imagination or was Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty not supposed to be out of contract at the end of last season? I see transfermarkt now doesn't have a contract expiry date on his page:

https://www.transfermarkt.com/jahkeele-marshall-rutty/profil/spieler/640852

16 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

...I think it's less about the CPL producing guys like Waterman, and more about the CPL needing to produce a Jonathan David...

If there are no merit-based no-fees academies linked to CanPL as is the case at the moment and most contracts are burger flipping level salaries then good luck attracting the top prospects. Only three Canadian soccer investors have the sort of setup needed to develop players in a comparable manner to what happens in top UEFA leagues right now, i.e. Greg Kerfoot, MLSE and the Saputos, but the lure of Europe is still going to draw some of the very top prospects away before they have played a pro level game in North America. Others will be reluctant to forego the possibility of a full ride NCAA scholarship.

Identifying a few late developers like Waterman who would otherwise have fallen through the cracks of the system is likely to be CanPL's main niche in CMNT terms as things are configured right now.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Is it just my imagination or was Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty not supposed to be out of contract at the end of last season? I see transfermarkt now doesn't have a contract expiry date on his page:

 

 

 

There was extensive talk about this on here last year and his contract is to 2024 when you include club options.

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20 hours ago, RS said:

There are lots of hyped up youngsters on the other MLS clubs and in CPL who are followed and discussed closely, but TFC just happens to have had a year in which a ton of teenagers/early 20s prospects played big minutes in MLS.

There are a lot of TFC-centric obsservers (including the negative ones) around here so I concede that you'd get more commentary on those players.  And those individual player threads do tend to turn into an indictment of the club's youth policy stunting each player's full potential, whatever that ceiling is in the opinion of each commentator here.

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8 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Is it just my imagination or was Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty not supposed to be out of contract at the end of last season? I see transfermarkt now doesn't have a contract expiry date on his page:

https://www.transfermarkt.com/jahkeele-marshall-rutty/profil/spieler/640852

If there are no merit-based no-fees academies linked to CanPL as is the case at the moment and most contracts are burger flipping level salaries then good luck attracting the top prospects. Only three Canadian soccer investors have the sort of setup needed to develop players in a comparable manner to what happens in top UEFA leagues right now, i.e. Greg Kerfoot, MLSE and the Saputos, but the lure of Europe is still going to draw some of the very top prospects away before they have played a pro level game in North America. Others will be reluctant to forego the possibility of a full ride NCAA scholarship.

Identifying a few late developers like Waterman who would otherwise have fallen through the cracks of the system is likely to be CanPL's main niche in CMNT terms as things are configured right now.

 

 

I'm talking about top domestic products. A player like Jonathan David should be able to get recruited by his local CPL club before he has to go and send demos out to european teams. A player like Alphonso Davies should be signing his first pro deal at 15 with FC Edmonton, not with the Whitecaps so he can go and play for their B team. The CPL didn't exist in their day, but giving the next great prospects a shot to play pro in Canada, against other pros, instead of going to play NextPro or NCAA who have terrible competitive quality shows young players that there is a way to reach their european goals by starting out in Canada. The top countries in the world all have their youth players playing professionally domestically, whereas we don't really have that in Canada.

 

CPL's current niche is exactly what you're talking about, but the question was what the CPL needs to do to bridge the gap with MLS. I think 100 Watermans doesn't change that, but a player or two who goes on to be sold to a top european league and goes on to have a great career is what gets more young talent interested in playing here, it improves the league, which improves revenue, which improves salary.

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2 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

I'm talking about top domestic products. A player like Jonathan David should be able to get recruited by his local CPL club before he has to go and send demos out to european teams. A player like Alphonso Davies should be signing his first pro deal at 15 with FC Edmonton, not with the Whitecaps so he can go and play for their B team. The CPL didn't exist in their day, but giving the next great prospects a shot to play pro in Canada, against other pros, instead of going to play NextPro or NCAA who have terrible competitive quality shows young players that there is a way to reach their european goals by starting out in Canada. The top countries in the world all have their youth players playing professionally domestically, whereas we don't really have that in Canada.

 

Maybe I misremember but David didnt want to get tied up with MLS, and have them muck up a potential europe bid as soon as he was 18.  I think the same rational would have excluded a CPL stint too.

Ummm, how about going from Edmonton strikers to Van Academy at 15, playing in MLS at 16???  Is that close enough for you? They were bringing him along slowly (as per robbo) and it still was only half a season on the reserve side at 16.  

  

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2 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

I'm talking about top domestic products. A player like Jonathan David should be able to get recruited by his local CPL club before he has to go and send demos out to european teams. A player like Alphonso Davies should be signing his first pro deal at 15 with FC Edmonton, not with the Whitecaps so he can go and play for their B team. The CPL didn't exist in their day, but giving the next great prospects a shot to play pro in Canada, against other pros, instead of going to play NextPro or NCAA who have terrible competitive quality shows young players that there is a way to reach their european goals by starting out in Canada. The top countries in the world all have their youth players playing professionally domestically, whereas we don't really have that in Canada.

 

CPL's current niche is exactly what you're talking about, but the question was what the CPL needs to do to bridge the gap with MLS. I think 100 Watermans doesn't change that, but a player or two who goes on to be sold to a top european league and goes on to have a great career is what gets more young talent interested in playing here, it improves the league, which improves revenue, which improves salary.

I think the part I disagree with is that more young talent is interested in playing in CPL because a star comes through the CPL. I cant imagine any foreign stars decide to come to CPL at age 15 instead of a euro academy. Basically this leaves only canadian youth talent. Their choice is either MLS or CPL. If they go MLS, they can be loaned to CPL but are already affiliated with a better club. If they go straight to CPL, then they may play right away but its a risk that you cap out at CPL. Therefore I think the top talent of each youth age group will end up playing for an MLS academy with loans for specific players. If I am correct, that doesnt really improve the quality of the league. 

However, if the league naturally grows salaries, starts academies etc and really establishes itself as a legitimate league, then I think we can attract foreign young talent like the MLS has started to do. Then a Davies could significantly improve the league. 

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6 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Maybe I misremember but David didnt want to get tied up with MLS, and have them muck up a potential europe bid as soon as he was 18.  I think the same rational would have excluded a CPL stint too.

Ummm, how about going from Edmonton strikers to Van Academy at 15, playing in MLS at 16???  Is that close enough for you? They were bringing him along slowly (as per robbo) and it still was only half a season on the reserve side at 16.  

  

With David, I thought it was more a case of him being single minded and wanting Europe or bust. Which is his right, and he was obviously good enough to do so, but with how many players who've tried to follow that path and failed, I would like the CPL to be attractive to that quality of young 16-17 year old. A year playing professionally in Canada, then a big transfer to Belgium or wherever.

For Davies, CPL > MLS academy. Things obviously worked out for him, but the Impact of an Edmonton CPL team getting to start a 15 year old Davies for a year before going to the Whitecaps would've been awesome for the city, the local soccer scene, and he would've played more professional soccer, which a lot of our young players sorely lack. Davies is generational enough where it doesn't matter how he got there, he was destined for greatness, but the next Davies will hopefully get his start in the CPL before quickly moving up to MLS and or Europe.

3 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think the part I disagree with is that more young talent is interested in playing in CPL because a star comes through the CPL. I cant imagine any foreign stars decide to come to CPL at age 15 instead of a euro academy. Basically this leaves only canadian youth talent. Their choice is either MLS or CPL. If they go MLS, they can be loaned to CPL but are already affiliated with a better club. If they go straight to CPL, then they may play right away but its a risk that you cap out at CPL. Therefore I think the top talent of each youth age group will end up playing for an MLS academy with loans for specific players. If I am correct, that doesnt really improve the quality of the league. 

However, if the league naturally grows salaries, starts academies etc and really establishes itself as a legitimate league, then I think we can attract foreign young talent like the MLS has started to do. Then a Davies could significantly improve the league. 

I'm thinking strictly of domestic talent. For MLS, you are theoretically correct, but does TFC actually loan any players to the CPL? Has Vancouver been successful with any CPL loans? It seems that this is something that only Montreal has seen success with. In reality, when a young player signs an MLS deal, they are sent to the academy, they play NextPro, it's a poor developmental league, and by the time they're 20, their european peers of the same age have multiple professional seasons under their belt (or are part of an elite academy which is a different story), and the gap in talent becomes more apparent.

The path I want the CPL to help Canada achieve is similar to how England's best players develop. Harry Kane has been at Tottenham since he was 11, but he was loaned to League Two, One, Championship, then became a premier league player. Jude Bellingham was identified by Birmingham, then moved on to BVB, and is now gonna come back to England for maybe the biggest transfer fee of all time. Those are two pathways that do not currently exist in Canada- MLS teams can theoretically loan players to the CPL, but they largely prefer keeping them at the academy, and good young players can theoretically sign to a CPL team before their first big move, but don't, because it's seen as a weak league with little potential to move upwards from.

You can be assured that pretty much all of our young players at big european academies will likely bust- it's a tough climb, but also, no country will care about developing our guys more than our domestic teams will. If a great young talent from Toronto has the choice to play for Braga U18 or Forge FC, I want them to choose Forge every single time.

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