Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty

[VinceA]

1 hour ago, Vasi said:

Yes, especially if they don't play him, or play him out of position. TBH he has not shown he is worth the 20 mill TFC have valuated him at. He is not even close to that valuation. 

If they are that high on him, they have to play him. Otherwise lower the price and let him go to Europe. 

Bro at this rate what JMR has shown clubs should be valuing him at like 2-3m. AFAIK he hasn't really shown anything at youth level for Canada either. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

I love to see TFC implosions, but seriously, I think the demands on the club are exagerrated. MLS Next just started last season, and then there were limitations with Covid to travel. If you don't have a strong 2nd or reserve team option, you can't let a kid have a few first team minutes, go back, get proper competitive minutes, improve, motivate, come back into the first team. 

The key is not to treat your 2nd team as really minor or a long way from the first team. You have to have those kids ready to go. Then you can fill it with 6-8 of your best prospects, and gradually work them into the first team.

Is MLS Next clearly a higher quality reserve league than any MLS has had before?

It's another thing if you want to let a kid go at 20 or 21 years old, that is fine.

[Vasi]

2 hours ago, VinceA said:

Bro at this rate what JMR has shown clubs should be valuing him at like 2-3m. AFAIK he hasn't really shown anything at youth level for Canada either. 

I agree. I think that might be high if you look what Buchanan and Kone went for. 

What I want to say, is if TFC rate him, then play him in his position and wait till the summer window. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Vasi

[Obinna]

Some points on Rutty:

• Firstly, I fully expect Rutty to start the season off at right back. Laryea, who has a track record of being able to play on the left, will do so just so TFC can shoe-horn Rutty in the starting line-up. 
• Secondly, I don't think full back is where he should be played, personally. Clearly, he has the makings of a center midfielder. It's a shame we probably won't see it - unless injuries occur. Osorio, Kaye, Bradley, Nelson and Vazquez are a deep midfield. 
• Thirdly, nobody is paying TFC 8-figures for Rutty - especially as a full back. Can he do a good job and maybe go for 2-3 million given his age? Sure. Will TFC sell him for that? No way. 
• TFC are kind of stuck here, because they want to sell him for at least a Kone-like fee, but they won't play him his natural position, which in my view is a CM (and yes, I know he came up as a winger, but he doesn't have the speed or instincts to take players on).
• If they prioritize his development by giving him Kone-like minutes in the middle of the pitch, they are doing so at the expense of Nelson. I think they need to showcase Nelson and get him out the door in the summer, maybe for 2-3 million, then have Rutty come into his spot for the second half of the season.
• In my mind, this would tee Rutty up for a summer 2024 transfer away from TFC. He'll be 20 years old with hopefully 75-80 MLS appearances under his belt, with the ability to play full back or center midfield in his portfolio. That could maybe get Toronto closer to a Kone-like fee, perhaps. If he exclusively plays FB, there's no chance of that.
• If he plays winger, he's going to be a back-up to the Italians (same with Nelson) - so even if you believe these guys are wingers (Nelson is more so than Rutty), you're not going to be able to get them the minutes to showcase themselves anyways, so these are the possibilities, like it or not.  

[Bison44]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I love to see TFC implosions, but seriously, I think the demands on the club are exagerrated. MLS Next just started last season, and then there were limitations with Covid to travel. If you don't have a strong 2nd or reserve team option, you can't let a kid have a few first team minutes, go back, get proper competitive minutes, improve, motivate, come back into the first team. 

 

They have had a 2nd team for a long time, USL, USL-C, where they got demolished, dropped to USL-1, then to wherever you would slot the MLS-Next.  This isnt what I would call an implosion, more of a long off season thats been pretty quiet so far and the guys on TFC that I am interested in are the CDNs.  Maybe I am the only one,  but the kick of watching MLS is to see the young CDN's playing.  If I wanted to watch Italians playing brazilians I would watch Series A and skip TFC altogether.  For me, watching the academy kids go on to USL then to MLS etc is the best part. Its the only reason I still watch MLS at all, but I guess I am not the target audience.  

[Floortom]

4 hours ago, Vasi said:

Yes, especially if they don't play him, or play him out of position. 

I don’t really get this “out of position talk”. The only position he played in the youth ranks was winger. He can’t play that position at any serious level because he lacks pace or ability to take defenders on. Playing him as a fullback makes a lot of sense.
 

The assumption here, that he’s a natural CM whose value will skyrocket once he’s played there, is entirely without merit IMO.

[Obinna]

21 minutes ago, Floortom said:

I don’t really get this “out of position talk”. The only position he played in the youth ranks was winger. He can’t play that position at any serious level because he lacks pace or ability to take defenders on. Playing him as a fullback makes a lot of sense.
 

The assumption here, that he’s a natural CM whose value will skyrocket once he’s played there, is entirely without merit IMO.

Which part of this is without merit, the part about him being a natural CM or the part about his value skyrocketing once he's played there? 

[Floortom]

13 hours ago, Obinna said:

Which part of this is without merit, the part about him being a natural CM or the part about his value skyrocketing once he's played there? 

The combination - if you want to play him in the midfield fair enough, but it’s an experiment. And who knows how it turns out. Is TFC willing to take that risk? 
 

I’ve been very skeptical on JMR over the years. His hype seems to be entirely internally generated by Manning and the TFC brass. I’ve seen him play at TFC2 numerous times and he didn’t stand out at all at a very low level which always left me confused. That being said, he definitely has some value and name recognition at this point and TFC is going to try to protect it. He’s be better off going to CPL for a year to develop but again i don’t see TFC taking that risk right now.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Floortom

[costarg]

6 hours ago, Obinna said:

I agree, but I do imagine them wanting to mold Okello into something he wasn't. He's a 6'5 midfielder with very good feet and offensive capabilities, so I can totally see why they didn't sell him as a youth player. They clearly must have thought they could develop and sell him later, otherwise why not take the offer? Maybe the "plan" they had for him was the wrong plan, or it wasn't executed properly, or Okello just couldn't develop into the player ther wanted him to be - or all of the above! 

You're giving the swamp too much credit.

He's a 6'5 midfielder with very good feet and offensive capabilities, so I can totally see why they didn't sell him as a youth player.  They clearly must have thought they could develop and sell him later, otherwise why not take the offer?

• They don't need the money.

Maybe the "plan" they had for him was the wrong plan, or it wasn't executed properly, or Okello just couldn't develop into the player ther wanted him to be

• They have no plan for the kids, its just hoard so no one can say we ain't trying.

[Bison44]

I dont get the "they dont need the money".  Everyone needs the money.  if they dont need it why are tickets so expensive??  They dont need to charge so much, give everyone a price break...maybe a free beer too...if they dont need the money.  

I've dealt with mom and pop operations and big companies that take up 10 floors in a office tower in Calgary...they all want the money...more succinctly put they want ALL THE MONEY.  They want all they can get, and they dont want to pay you any if they can help it.  They might look at it from the other side, not that they got 1million for Okello or 3 million for Rutty (which they definitly care about), but potentially they might lose millions of future profit if the players turn into something after they sell them.  

As for Rutty, If we take for granted that if he too slow etc etc (not good for winger) that turning him into a FB vs a more central mid..that either is a obvious slam dunk.  If you make him a FB, he is still slowish and small, and you have to teach him the defensive side.  if you put him more central, he can still use his offensive skills, but its still a new position and both are experiments.  Hopefully he finds a position that shows off his skills and he can excel there.  

[rydermike]

Isn't the reason they started playing him at fullback because they sent him on trial to Liverpool and Liverpool started using him as a fullback. So they figured, if the European clubs want him as a fullback, let's play him as a fullback

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, Floortom said:

The combination - if you want to play him in the midfield fair enough, but it’s an experiment. And who knows how it turns out. Is TFC willing to take that risk? 

Playing him at RB was an experiment too, no?

Sure, we don't know how he'll fare in another position, but he's also an 18 year old without an obvious position. He came up as a winger, but personally I don't see it, especially at this level, and even if I were convinced that winger is his position, he's not going to see the field ahead of the Italians, so whether they want to "experiment" with him at FB or CM, I don't really see the difference.

The main consideration for me is that his skillset (at least to me) is obviously tailor-made for the CM position, but the problem there is that he's also not ahead of any of the Canadian Internationals in the middle. This is why I fully expect him to be played at FB by default. It's the one position in which TFC is willing to give him game time, but I am pretty convniced it's not his ideal position.

2 hours ago, Floortom said:

I’ve been very skeptical on JMR over the years. His hype seems to be entirely internally generated by Manning and the TFC brass. I’ve seen him play at TFC2 numerous times and he didn’t stand out at all at a very low level which always left me confused. That being said, he definitely has some value and make recognition at this point and TFC is going to try to protect it. He’s be better off going to CPL for a year to develop but again i don’t see TFC taking that risk right now.

Agreed he has been overhyped, and I do blame TFC for that. I do see the makings of an excellent player, but his "talent" is in his mature decision making and technical adequacy. It's nothing special, but for an 18 year old it's "special", if you know what I mean.

That said, given the nature of his talent, I honestly think overhyping him sets him up for unrealistic expectations. Not because he sucks, but because of the sort of player he is. You can overstate the quality of a flashy winger like Davies, or a lethal finisher like David, but a cerebral midfielder like Rutty is built in the mold of the typical quiet, yet tidy and effective type of midfielder, who does everything right but doesn't really get noticed on the field (in a good way). The type of player who isn't glamourous, yet is a joy to watch by those who know what they are looking at. This is what he "can" be in my eyes.

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, rydermike said:

Isn't the reason they started playing him at fullback because they sent him on trial to Liverpool and Liverpool started using him as a fullback. So they figured, if the European clubs want him as a fullback, let's play him as a fullback

That's a good point. I forgot about that part of this saga.

[frmr]

5 hours ago, Bison44 said:

if they dont need it why are tickets so expensive?

Sweet summer child.

[TOcanadafan]

I’m a TFC fan, but definitely no apologist.  Until this club shows they actually have a development plan with their young talent, heck, even some kind of plan other than outspend the rest of the league, I cross my fingers that any prospect (overhyped or not) gets the hell out of town at first chance.  
Their top prospect talent was attacking wingers (JMR, Nelson, Shaff) and they go and buy 2 wing DP’s.  Previously they had their ‘hyped prospects’ coming in the midfield (Fraser, Okello, Priso) and they froze them out by over playing Bradley & Delgado. 
Top clubs also manage to have their youth team structure organized so that when youth come into the first squad, they ‘know’ the system… instead at TFC, youth who are given a rare opportunity look lost and become the coach’s scapegoat.

But, but Laryea?, Osorio?  Laryea was 24 when he signed to TFC, hardly a prospect, and Osorio came in 10 years ago.  TFC has likely the worst development track record of any team in MLS while enjoying one of the largest catchment areas, and now that TFC is in another ‘spend with no plan’ phase, I just wish they’d sell JMR asap, so that the buying team develops him in the position they best see him growing into.

[A Different Perspective]

31 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

I’m a TFC fan, but definitely no apologist.  Until this club shows they actually have a development plan with their young talent, heck, even some kind of plan other than outspend the rest of the league, I cross my fingers that any prospect (overhyped or not) gets the hell out of town at first chance.  
Their top prospect talent was attacking wingers (JMR, Nelson, Shaff) and they go and buy 2 wing DP’s.  Previously they had their ‘hyped prospects’ coming in the midfield (Fraser, Okello, Priso) and they froze them out by over playing Bradley & Delgado. 
Top clubs also manage to have their youth team structure organized so that when youth come into the first squad, they ‘know’ the system… instead at TFC, youth who are given a rare opportunity look lost and become the coach’s scapegoat.

But, but Laryea?, Osorio?  Laryea was 24 when he signed to TFC, hardly a prospect, and Osorio came in 10 years ago.  TFC has likely the worst development track record of any team in MLS while enjoying one of the largest catchment areas, and now that TFC is in another ‘spend with no plan’ phase, I just wish they’d sell JMR asap, so that the buying team develops him in the position they best see him growing into.

I agree with everything you wrote.  But it seems a consistent refrain but in fairness what is a “true development plan” - I think this would an important distinction for all our potential players. I would love to hear what one truly looks like.  

[Dominic94]

I think what everyone had to accept is he’s a guy who’s going to be great at 24, but will struggle at 18, 19 etc. He’s extremely raw, don’t think he was ready for full back at MLS if he was one, also don’t think he was given a chance to beat players as it’s being coached out of him. I know some see him as a CM. I am hoping he gets a move he needs it, and the bench won’t help him.

[SthMelbRed]

I've been saying this for a few years, now. If I was the parent of a top, young player in southern Ontario, I'd definitely want my kid to play in the TFC academy. There's absolutely no way in hell that I'd let them sign a first-team contract past the age of 18, though. 

[El Hombre]

On 1/7/2023 at 1:09 PM, narduch said:

Considering TFC's track record can you blame people for thinking that?

But if they look at their recent track record, TFC needs to be given a little bit of rope:

Jacob Shaffleburg transfer to Nashville
Ralph Priso transfer to Colorado
Luca Petrasso transfer to Orlando

I used to love getting in on the TFC-bashing, but lately its been hard with what they have done.

The optimist in me says that they are just trying to drive up the price a bit.

[El Hombre]

On 1/7/2023 at 6:58 PM, Floortom said:

The assumption here, that he’s a natural CM whose value will skyrocket once he’s played there, is entirely without merit IMO.

Kone was a winger coming up.  So there is precedence that it could happen.

I agree with @Obinna on this one, his skillset is more suited to the middle of the park.  His best quality in my mind is that he rarely makes a mistake, so his football IQ is up there.  That's the kind of person you want pulling the strings in the middle.  He's not a destroyer by any means, but I do agree that he could do an Osorio-like job there.

[InglewoodJack]

Paid a $1.5M transfer fee to purchase him for AFC Wimbledon in League Two in Fifa career mode this week. One of our best players, helped us get promoted. Hoping to sell him to the sort of teams we all think he’s headed to in real life.

[narduch]

49 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

But if they look at their recent track record, TFC needs to be given a little bit of rope:

Jacob Shaffleburg transfer to Nashville
Ralph Priso transfer to Colorado
Luca Petrasso transfer to Orlando

I used to love getting in on the TFC-bashing, but lately its been hard with what they have done.

The optimist in me says that they are just trying to drive up the price a bit.

Personally think the way Shaffelburg was handled is not really a brag for TFC.

That may happen with Priso too.

[InglewoodJack]

17 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

I've been saying this for a few years, now. If I was the parent of a top, young player in southern Ontario, I'd definitely want my kid to play in the TFC academy. There's absolutely no way in hell that I'd let them sign a first-team contract past the age of 18, though. 

Is it even worth it to go through TFC academy and not just shoot for Europe from the jump? Obviously easier said, but I think of someone like Jonathan David, or even Kone (some team in Belgium apparently had him nearly signed before Montreal caught wind). Spend a bit of money, get an agent who can get your highlight reel to scouts abroad, and see what happens. TFC just seems like a dead end, especially considering their biggest “wins” Priso, Shaffleburg essentially amount to “the player succeeded in freeing himself from TFC”, not that they moved up a level or anything. I know we criticize Liam Fraser for jumping to Belgium second div., that wasn’t the best move for sure, but I’m starting to think that’s the type of move more of our young players should consider.

Edited January 9, 2023 by InglewoodJack

[El Hombre]

2 hours ago, narduch said:

Personally think the way Shaffelburg was handled is not really a brag for TFC.

That may happen with Priso too.

Really?  What am I missing on the Shaffelburg deal?

Insigne really limits the amount of opportunities on the left side and LB wasn't really taking with Shaffleburg, so they shipped him out to Nashville.  I really think all parties won in that instance because they could've very easily buried him on the bench just in case they need him.  They didn't need to sell him, let alone loan him when he was still useful to TFC.  I don't see a downside of how he was handled by the current administration.  Armas and Vanney are another story.

[Bison44]

2 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

Is it even worth it to go through TFC academy and not just shoot for Europe from the jump? 

How many kids can just turn themselves into a talent ready to jump to europe at 18??  There is a club, coach/mentor, academy something involved, and most people want the best coaches etc (TFC) to help that along.  Even David had the Dragons/Hornets etc.

As for SHaff petrasso et al, moving them on after the Italians/wingers came in was a no brainer, but I'm still glad TFC did it.   A MLS team wanted them, gave something for them, and now its in their interest to get the most out of the player.  Thats pretty much mission accomplished for TFC eh?  Cant get a multi million home run like Kone all the time, but if you can develop depth pieces or trade them for depth on a regular basis, you are getting a return on that academy investment until the big one comes along.