Herdman new head coach

[Shortdutchcanuck]

10 hours ago, nolbertos said:

In any other FA, he’d be canned for bad results leading up to WCQ or bad GC results, but since this is the CSA and they are too cheap to hire anyone else (not that they could afford it, anyways).  We are stuck with him until the end of WCQ, regardless of Hex or no Hex.  Unless they beat or tie the US, I don’t expect Canada to make it to the WC, the long road to qualifying.

Actually in most other  FAs teams occasionally lose to better teams (Mexico) or slightly weaker teams (I would not consider Haiti having finished ahead of Costa Rica that much of a minnow compared to Canada) and carry on without firing anybody unless there has already been serious precedent.  You don't build any sense of team identity or continuity by firing someone every time there is a setback.  The best teams in the world (and I'm not talking Ecuador and Paraguay) understand that you allow a certain amount of rope - you are not reactionary, going ballistic at every bump in the road like fans do, you understand the big picture but you also have standards, so you fire Herdman if he has lost the team or is not making any progress, but not on the basis of one or two games.

A coach and a team require some time to make mistakes together, if you constantly fire at the first offense you will get nowhere.

[gator]

59 minutes ago, Shortdutchcanuck said:

Actually in most other  FAs teams occasionally lose to better teams (Mexico) or slightly weaker teams (I would not consider Haiti having finished ahead of Costa Rica that much of a minnow compared to Canada) and carry on without firing anybody unless there has already been serious precedent.  You don't build any sense of team identity or continuity by firing someone every time there is a setback.  The best teams in the world (and I'm not talking Ecuador and Paraguay) understand that you allow a certain amount of rope - you are not reactionary, going ballistic at every bump in the road like fans do, you understand the big picture but you also have standards, so you fire Herdman if he has lost the team or is not making any progress, but not on the basis of one or two games.

A coach and a team require some time to make mistakes together, if you constantly fire at the first offense you will get nowhere.

I agree with most of what you're saying but by using that logic how do you explain Zambrano getting sacked?

[The Beaver 2.0]

3 minutes ago, gator said:

I agree with most of what you're saying but by using that logic how do you explain Zambrano getting sacked?

Because he was not let go because of his coaching. That seems damned apparent. 

[Bertuzzi44]

7 hours ago, Kent said:

Did our Gold Cup game against Martinique in 2013 count? If it counted then, why doesn't it count in 2019? Just because we won handily this time? Keep in mind Martinique only lost to Mexico 3-2 at the Gold Cup this year, but somehow our 4-0 win against them is just a gimme win.

It feels like the logic goes that if Canada wins, especially by a lot of goals, then it must have been an easy game so Herdman gets no credit.

If Canada loses, then Herdman gets all the blame (OK fine, Godinho got plenty of blame for the Haiti game).

If you want to make criticisms of the Mexico and Haiti games, I get it. But all those wins shouldn't just be thrown to the curb as meaningless. There is no pleasing some people when it comes to Herdman.

He shouldn't have the job in the first place. I am displeased by default.

Until he at least shows better than Oz (which he hasn't, even with a stronger roster) I am all about a super short leash and holding his (and the CSA's) feet to the flames. Lord knows the "soccer media" in this country won't.

 

 

[SthMelbRed]

Well, your displeasure not withstanding, he does have the job. So, I'd say it's about time that you, and a lot of others around this place, just got the fuck over it. All the ridiculous moaning about Herdman is turning this place into a slightly less shit version of the Southsiders' board.

[Unnamed Trialist]

51 minutes ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

He shouldn't have the job in the first place. I am displeased by default.

Until he at least shows better than Oz (which he hasn't, even with a stronger roster) I am all about a super short leash and holding his (and the CSA's) feet to the flames. Lord knows the "soccer media" in this country won't.

This is exactly where I stand. He is like some bureaucrat or politician more interested in personal survival than results, so he spends his first year doing nothing, after stabbing Oz in the back in shameful fashion. 

I can't get over self-aggrandizing behaviour based on fluff, at least not until results make me forget. And after this long with Herdman on his perch, they haven't.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Unnamed Trialist

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

55 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

All the ridiculous moaning about Herdman is turning this place into a slightly less **** version of the Southsiders' board.

For better or worse, this section of the board is a lot more like the English and Italian boards that I have frequented.  (To be fair the English pretend they don't care about the national team until about 5 seconds before they reach the semi-finals and then after, they all knew it would all go pear-shaped in the end.  A very emotionally self-protective strategy.) 

Edited September 10, 2019 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[narduch]

Sorry but there is nothing ridiculous about the complaints about Herdman.

If anything is ridiculous its telling people to get over it.

Fuck off. I will hate the hiring if I want to.

Edited September 10, 2019 by narduch

[Shortdutchcanuck]

11 hours ago, gator said:

I agree with most of what you're saying but by using that logic how do you explain Zambrano getting sacked?

I didn't agree with Zambrano getting sacked.  I was cautiously optimistic with Zambrano as I am now with Herdman.  Without knowing what went on behind the scenes, from a standpoint of purely coaching games without taking organizational abilities into account I think this was a lateral move at best.

I don't care for Herdman overly but I don't have to.  Outside of 2 halves I've been pretty happy with how he has the team playing, I see growth, I even see a willingness to try different players and change formations, maybe even learn from mistakes.  This is what matters more than my personal opinion of the man's personality, the sense of growth and identity and continuity within the team.

What I don't get is the cult figure status Zambrano has attained on this board, literally without achieving anything special.  Maybe its all the National Teams who have been lining up to hire him since,  and all the glorious victories he has achieved with them.

For that matter, I don't trust that another CSA hire at this point would be anything other than a lateral move at best, and quite possibly worse.

[The Real Marc]

23 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

It isn’t just the new fans.  Put me in that camp as well - and I have been cheering us on for decades.

With the team we have, we should be in the hex, and we should be competing hard for a spot in the WC.  At this point I don’t care that 10 or 15 years ago we may have struggled beating minnows. That is a lifetime away in footy terms and we have a completely renewed (and largely upgraded) squad.  I want to see these guys get results.  Now.  

Said every Canadian soccer fan about every new generation of talent.

[dyslexic nam]

1 minute ago, The Real Marc said:

Said every Canadian soccer fan about every new generation of talent.

Yeah but this squad is undeniably strong in relation to past teams.  I don't think it is proximity bias to expect more from this team.  

[The Real Marc]

5 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Yeah but this squad is undeniably strong in relation to past teams.  I don't think it is proximity bias to expect more from this team.  

It absolutely is proximity bias - particularly given that we are used to seeing Canadian teams that are strong in defense rather than offense. Again, that's what's been said every time. And strength compared to past teams is irrelevant - it's strength compared to opponents that counts.

Edited September 10, 2019 by The Real Marc

[dyslexic nam]

And in comparison to teams placed 4-6 in CONCACAF, I can't think of a time that we are relatively stronger. 

[RS]

20 minutes ago, Shortdutchcanuck said:

What I don't get is the cult figure status Zambrano has attained on this board, literally without achieving anything special.  Maybe its all the National Teams who have been lining up to hire him since,  and all the glorious victories he has achieved with them.

Yes. And the same people lionizing Zambrano will bemoan Herdman's supposed cult of personality.

They're very different people, but based on what we've seen there's very little to distinguish them as coaches.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

I don't think you can say we are not seeing the benefit of a pretty great generation at a number of positions.  We can see that from a lot of the results.  Also keeping motivated and blowing out lesser teams consistently is not necessarily something  you or I could just walk in and do. 

The problem being is that we are is still in the also-rans, we have risen to the top of that group but the nature of confederation and the format means that may not be enough.  We have to take some pretty huge steps to qualify for 2022.  

I am not sure I am ready to say failing to take all those huge steps makes Herdman a failure worth uprooting the programs for...yet.  He will have opportunities to correct mistakes he has made against decent teams - against decent teams in the near future, no matter where the FIFA points end up.  Lets see what he does there. 

[BrennanFan]

2 minutes ago, RS said:

Yes. And the same people lionizing Zambrano will bemoan Herdman's supposed cult of personality.

They're very different people, but based on what we've seen there's very little to distinguish them as coaches.

Zambrano at least tied Honduras and Costa Rica in competitive matches. No small feat.

Herdman has done nothing comparable. He has played 2 good teams and lost both games.

[BuzzAndSting]

1 minute ago, BrennanFan said:

Zambrano at least tied Honduras and Costa Rica in competitive matches. No small feat.

Herdman has done nothing comparable. He has played 2 good teams and lost both games.

He also had bad losses... If ties against Honduras and Costa Rica are measures of success than the standard is pretty low. Floro beat Honduras and tied Costa Rica, with arguably worse teams, is he better than OZ?

[RS]

1 minute ago, BrennanFan said:

Zambrano at least tied Honduras and Costa Rica in competitive matches. No small feat.

Herdman has done nothing comparable. He has played 2 good teams and lost both games.

They are absolutely comparable because both failed in the quarterfinals in extremely winnable games.

[BrennanFan]

Disagree with the above as OZs team had a much tougher group stage within a 12 team Gold Cup and did not implode in one half against historically weaker opposition. Nevertheless, I don't think it serves much purpose discussing OZ at this stage of the game.

Herdman has had time to lay down his own track record for which he can be judged independently. By October, he will have had 10 games. Plenty of training sessions and motivational speaker sessions and everything else to instill his own culture, and in game strategy. He will have settled on a preferred starting 11.  22 months in charge, and a Gold Cup behind him to reevaluate.

What we will see in October is the very best Herdman has to offer. We can no longer talk about this being a young team that needs time to gel with their new coach. That is just not the case.

Herdman said it himself. No more excuses. It's time to put up or shut up. Coaches should be judged on their results. If Herdman cannot get a result against the US, he is just not good enough to get us to the next level. He will have had plenty of time and opportunity to show what he can do.

I wish Herdman luck and success but if there's one positive thing the Nations League can do for us is give us a measuring stick to assess our coach before its too late.  

[red card]

22 minutes ago, RS said:

They are absolutely comparable because both failed in the quarterfinals in extremely winnable games.

And both made fatal coaching mistakes that contributed to the teams' not advancing. But this was about the time was Oz was let go, so any comparables going forward are out the window.

I think Oz is perceived as a better tactician than Herdman since Oz is in the mold of a classic football coach. His style was a breath of fresh air on and off the pitch compared to Floro. Oz was our best hire since Holger.

Herdman has shown he is better at the off-pitch organization and building the strategic foundations beyond a cycle. A common complaint as a CSA weak link by many but doesn't seem to be appreciated since actions are taken off the pitch and results won't be seen for a while.

His tactical acumen is discounted because he didn't do with a men's team. He talks like a corporate CEO rather than a football manager which also turns some off.  His hiring wasn't done right but add that to the litany of balls the CSA has dropped since inception.

Edited September 10, 2019 by red card

[Corazon]

Results and player depth aside, I thought OZ had a better vision for this program going forward.  Demanding more friendlies and camps.  Recruiting untapped markets and players outside of the MLS was a priority for him as well which I know caused backlash.  But for years we all knew talent was being lost in our country because of this.  However, I do believe CPL will help with this as well going forward.

[Kadenge]

It's game day guys. Let's get behind the team and coach at least until 9.30 pm?

[KW519]

You have national team members praising Herdmans methods then theres forum members watching interviews and touchline body language formulating opinions 😂😂 2 losses(one to mexico) in a calendar year and people are calling for his job wtf? 

[gator]

13 hours ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

Because he was not let go because of his coaching. That seems damned apparent. 

Sorry it was just a hypothetical question to @Shortdutchcanuck I didn't mean to stir up the sh*t on game day, I don't like how things came down but we have no choice but to support Herdman for now, I have said many times, it is all gonna come down to what we do in the games with the US, fail miserably and the heat turns up, succeed and he will lose many detractors (for a while)!

[Cheeta]

40 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

It's game day guys. Let's get behind the team and coach at least until 9.30 pm?

8:30.  Tops.  Final offer.