Herdman new head coach

[gator]

We shouldn't be looking in the rear view mirror but I will go there, with Herdman promoting the beach training as an exercise in mental toughness then the team and himself capitulating to Haiti when the going gets tough it really brings up some questions to how effective the training was! Now counter that with how Bianca hung in there when everything was going against her yesterday with 23,000 Americans screaming against her there seems to be a big difference! Tennis is and individual sport so really the comparisons are somewhat irrelevant, but damn I wish we had 11 on the pitch that never got rattled!

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, BrennanFan said:

It's fun to beat up on Cuba but really it's meaningless.  We have only played 2 games against good competition with Herdman and we've lost both of them.  We will all find out what this team is really made of on Oct. 15, 2019.  If we lose at home against the US, it's case closed on Herdman. 

Agreed.  It's results against much stronger sides, when it matters, is what he and his team should be measured on.  But my bar for this team is consistently playing to its capability and being hard to beat against tough sides.

 

1 hour ago, El Hombre said:

Seems like when this is the complain, we've run out of things to complain about.

No, the complaint is about underachieving in the key moments, under pressure.  That monkey is still on the back.  Play well against the States in both legs and, regardless of the outcome, is a big step in the right direction to getting it off.

[nolbertos]

Wake me up when we play and beat the US on Canadian soil and in rhe US.  Trashing minnows, got us nowhere prior to the Gold Cup.  Until Herdman can beat the US, Mexico, Honduras, Panama, Costa Rica, and Haiti away or at home, these wins are moot.  Great we have 3 points, but thats it. 

[BrennanFan]

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

Just want to say to @BrennanFan and others unimpressed by beating a minnow. It is not that easy, nor is it a given. 

The other day Turkey barely got past Andorra, with a late goal playing at home, 1-0. Spain played Faroe Is yesterday and frankly, did not really shine in spite of winning handily. Similar scenarios are repeated constantly in world football, almost every international date. You have to do it, and you should do it handily. That 6-0 is our best home result just shows how far we are from being able to easily beat up on minnows.

BTW, Cuba is not even really a minnow in Concacaf terms, it is in the lower part of the 2nd tier, while we are in the upper part. Our match was the equivalent of a Finland-Latvia or something like that.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Unnamed Trialist

[dyslexic nam]

I think most people like the fact that these games no longer seem like banana peels for us.  But that still doesn’t change the fact that we have yet to qualify for the WC in this generation, haven’t made the hex forever, haven’t won the GC recently, and crashed out to Haiti (after losing to a Mexico B team) in the most recent iteration. 

Yes, we seem to be able to beat up the teams clearly below us - and that is not nothing.  But we need to start ticking off some of those unobtanium boxes before many of us will feel like we are achieving the kinds of results this team warrants. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

26 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Yes, we seem to be able to beat up the teams clearly below us - and that is not nothing.  But we need to start ticking off some of those unobtanium boxes before many of us will feel like we are achieving the kinds of results this team warrants. 

To maybe make it oversimple: I think he has shown his strengths and weaknesses. 

Getting us motivated and feeling good and playing with freedom, thereby giving the teams a shellacking that we need to is, as you say, not nothing.

He has also shown a tendency to overthink things and good bouts of tactical naivety.  Can that be corrected?  We will see.

I am about loyalty and continuity as much as possible, so I don't love how he got here but am willing to give some chances while he is. 

Edit PS - What do people see as the minimum in the next three meaningful games for him to say he is moving us forward?

Edited September 9, 2019 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[MM3/MM2/MM]

13 hours ago, gator said:

We shouldn't be looking in the rear view mirror but I will go there, with Herdman promoting the beach training as an exercise in mental toughness then the team and himself capitulating to Haiti when the going gets tough it really brings up some questions to how effective the training was! Now counter that with how Bianca hung in there when everything was going against her yesterday with 23,000 Americans screaming against her there seems to be a big difference! Tennis is and individual sport so really the comparisons are somewhat irrelevant, but damn I wish we had 11 on the pitch that never got rattled!

Maybe they should try meditation (mindfulness)😎

[dyslexic nam]

6 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

To maybe make it oversimple: I think he has shown his strengths and weaknesses. 

Getting us motivated and feeling good and playing with freedom, thereby giving the teams a shellacking that we need to is, as you say, not nothing.

He has also shown a tendency to overthink things and good bouts of tactical naivety.  Can that be corrected?  We will see.

I am about loyalty and continuity as much as possible, so I don't love how he got here but am willing to give some chances while he is. 

Edit PS - What do people see as the minimum in the next three meaningful games for him to say he is moving us forward?

I think a draw against the US would constitute us “moving forward”. The problem is the pace at which we are doing it.  A result like that may be good in a (recent) historical context but we don’t have the luxury of small, incremental gains against hex-level CONCACAF teams.  Another year of that, and we yet again miss the hew and likely the WC.  To me, that isn’t good enough - incremental gains or not. 

[dyslexic nam]

6 minutes ago, MM3/MM2/MM said:

Maybe they should try meditation (mindfulness)😎

Enough of that voodoo bullshit. 

[The Real Marc]

14 hours ago, El Hombre said:

So, you would prefer that they keep that under wraps then and go on a twitter blackout leading up to the game?

Or should we go back to what we've always done in terms of preparation, and not entertain new ideas to perhaps get a different result?

Seems like when this is the complain, we've run out of things to complain about.

Yup. I get that Herdman is always going to garner opposition due coaching the women and his role in replacing Octavio - and his flop against Haiti doesn't help - but critiques like those about social media and celebrations are childish digs and nothing more.

I am willing to grant, however, that there is a newer set of fans that see scoring six or seven against a Cuba  as the bare minimum of what we should be doing, and don't remember the years we spent squeaking out games like this or scoring less than six goals in all of WCQ.

Edited September 9, 2019 by The Real Marc

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

I think a draw against the US would constitute us “moving forward”. The problem is the pace at which we are doing it.  A result like that may be good in a (recent) historical context but we don’t have the luxury of small, incremental gains against hex-level CONCACAF teams.  Another year of that, and we yet again miss the hew and likely the WC.  To me, that isn’t good enough - incremental gains or not. 

I agree the math does not work incrementally if we actually want to go in 2022.

I guess more bluntly, does he stay in a job if we give the US two good games but end up below them? 

[dyslexic nam]

5 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

I am willing to grant, however, that there is a newer set of fans that see scoring six or seven against a Cuba  as the bare minimum of what we should be doing, and don't remember the years we spent squeaking out games like this or scoring less than six goals in all of WCQ.

It isn’t just the new fans.  Put me in that camp as well - and I have been cheering us on for decades.

With the team we have, we should be in the hex, and we should be competing hard for a spot in the WC.  At this point I don’t care that 10 or 15 years ago we may have struggled beating minnows. That is a lifetime away in footy terms and we have a completely renewed (and largely upgraded) squad.  I want to see these guys get results.  Now.  

 

8 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I guess more bluntly, does he stay in a job if we give the US two good games but end up below them? 

For the reasons that others have said before (all involving the fact that CSA is too invested in Herdman) I don’t think he goes anywhere for the next few years barring absolute catastrophe - and losing to the US wouldn’t be seen that way by the brass. 

[nolbertos]

8 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I agree the math does not work incrementally if we actually want to go in 2022.

I guess more bluntly, does he stay in a job if we give the US two good games but end up below them? 

In any other FA, he’d be canned for bad results leading up to WCQ or bad GC results, but since this is the CSA and they are too cheap to hire anyone else (not that they could afford it, anyways).  We are stuck with him until the end of WCQ, regardless of Hex or no Hex.  Unless they beat or tie the US, I don’t expect Canada to make it to the WC, the long road to qualifying.

[El Hombre]

25 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

In any other FA, he’d be canned for bad results leading up to WCQ or bad GC results, but since this is the CSA and they are too cheap to hire anyone else (not that they could afford it, anyways).  We are stuck with him until the end of WCQ, regardless of Hex or no Hex.  Unless they beat or tie the US, I don’t expect Canada to make it to the WC, the long road to qualifying.

I love this "In any other FA..." stuff.

Just for the Gold Cup, in order to compare apples to apples:

1) Fabian Coito was the coach for Honduras in the Gold Cup.  They finished last in their group.  He is still the head coach.

2) Carlos de los Cobos was the coach for El Salvador in the Gold Cup.  They finished third in their group.  He is still the head coach.

3) Dennis Lawrence was the coach for Trinidad and Tobago in the Gold Cup.  They finished last in their group AND they lost a friendly to St. VAG in August.  He is still the head coach.

[red card]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

Enough of that voodoo ********. 

It worked for Andreescu.

I would get very negative thoughts going through my mind. I would smash racquets,” Ms. Andreescu said. “So I started seeing … (here she paused and decided against saying the word ‘therapist’ out loud) … I’ll say I started seeking advice from other people.”

She now practises meditation. She is to visualization what Novak Djokovic is to the war on gluten. She ritualizes positive thinking (which sounds much more exhausting than playing tennis). She talks a lot about breathing, as if that’s a pastime rather than a biological fact.

She calls all this “working your mind.”

At this level, everyone knows how to play tennis,” Ms. Andreescu said. “The thing that separates the best from the rest is the mindset.”

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

To maybe make it oversimple: I think he has shown his strengths and weaknesses. 

Getting us motivated and feeling good and playing with freedom, thereby giving the teams a shellacking that we need to is, as you say, not nothing.

He has also shown a tendency to overthink things and good bouts of tactical naivety.  Can that be corrected?  We will see.

I am about loyalty and continuity as much as possible, so I don't love how he got here but am willing to give some chances while he is. 

Edit PS - What do people see as the minimum in the next three meaningful games for him to say he is moving us forward?

Psychologically, which is what counts for Herdman: a draw vs. the US at least;if not now, when?

Beat Cuba with no more than a goal against.

[nolbertos]

2 hours ago, El Hombre said:

I love this "In any other FA..." stuff.

Just for the Gold Cup, in order to compare apples to apples:

1) Fabian Coito was the coach for Honduras in the Gold Cup.  They finished last in their group.  He is still the head coach.

2) Carlos de los Cobos was the coach for El Salvador in the Gold Cup.  They finished third in their group.  He is still the head coach.

3) Dennis Lawrence was the coach for Trinidad and Tobago in the Gold Cup.  They finished last in their group AND they lost a friendly to St. VAG in August.  He is still the head coach.

Yeah and out of all those 3, how many have qualified to a World Cup in recent memory.  Can only think of T & T in 2006, but thats mostly thanks to Jack Warner.  After the Copa America, Ecuador, who have been to 3 World Cups in recent memory, who had only hired there head coach last November, canned him after the Copa America fiasco.  Paraguay also fired there previous head coach after 5 months on the job with lacklustre results and hired an Argentine prior to the Copa america. Should’ve stated good FA’s are the ones that part, while the cash strap ones and minnows ala Canada, and other Central american countries, have to tough it out.

[JuicyHam]

33 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

Yeah and out of all those 3, how many have qualified to a World Cup in recent memory.  Can only think of T & T in 2006, but thats mostly thanks to Jack Warner.  After the Copa America, Ecuador, who have been to 3 World Cups in recent memory, who had only hired there head coach last November, canned him after the Copa America fiasco.  Paraguay also fired there previous head coach after 5 months on the job with lacklustre results and hired an Argentine prior to the Copa america. Should’ve stated good FA’s are the ones that part, while the cash strap ones and minnows ala Canada, and other Central american countries, have to tough it out.

Honduras Qualified in 2010 and 2014

[apbsmith]

& lost to Australia in the playoff in 2018.

[El Hombre]

10 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Just want to say to @BrennanFan and others unimpressed by beating a minnow. It is not that easy, nor is it a given. 

The other day Turkey barely got past Andorra, with a late goal playing at home, 1-0. Spain played Faroe Is yesterday and frankly, did not really shine in spite of winning handily. Similar scenarios are repeated constantly in world football, almost every international date. You have to do it, and you should do it handily. That 6-0 is our best home result just shows how far we are from being able to easily beat up on minnows.

BTW, Cuba is not even really a minnow in Concacaf terms, it is in the lower part of the 2nd tier, while we are in the upper part. Our match was the equivalent of a Finland-Latvia or something like that.

Sept. 8, 2019 - Panama 0 - 2 Bermuda - Played in Estadio Rommel Fernández, Panama City.

[Kent]

13 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Sept. 8, 2019 - Panama 0 - 2 Bermuda - Played in Estadio Rommel Fernández, Panama City.

I was going to point out that in that Panama vs Bermuda game Panama lost both halves... at home... to Bermuda.

In John Herdman's tenure with the CMNT so far the team has won 15 halves, tied 2 (in a pair of 1-0 wins), and only lost 3 (2 to Mexico, who you know, won the whole Gold Cup, and 1 to Haiti). And just a further point, by results, Mexico, Haiti, and Costa Rica were the 3 best teams in the Gold Cup.

Yes we should have been able to hold on against Haiti, but we are talking about one bad half of soccer, and all of the positive stuff doesn't count at all? Since we were talking about any other FA earlier. In what other country would the fan base be talking about firing the manager the day or two after the largest home victory in it's history?

[Bertuzzi44]

9 minutes ago, Kent said:

I was going to point out that in that Panama vs Bermuda game Panama lost both halves... at home... to Bermuda.

In John Herdman's tenure with the CMNT so far the team has won 15 halves, tied 2 (in a pair of 1-0 wins), and only lost 3 (2 to Mexico, who you know, won the whole Gold Cup, and 1 to Haiti). And just a further point, by results, Mexico, Haiti, and Costa Rica were the 3 best teams in the Gold Cup.

Yes we should have been able to hold on against Haiti, but we are talking about one bad half of soccer, and all of the positive stuff doesn't count at all? Since we were talking about any other FA earlier. In what other country would the fan base be talking about firing the manager the day or two after the largest home victory in it's history?

Those are the moments that count. The was also the moment Herdman had been "strategizing" for for literally months. and we flopped.

 With Canada's current roster, they could probably hammer minnows and the likes of Cuba with me as the gaffer!

[BearcatSA]

8 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Edit PS - What do people see as the minimum in the next three meaningful games for him to say he is moving us forward?

Play well.  I know that's a highly subjective metric because there are many other variables that come into play, such as get CONCACAFed by the reffing or a genuine bad break.  But once again, it all comes back to how well you handle the adversity.

With regards to playing minnows, when any team puts up a ten man barricading bus park in front of their keeper it can be pretty hard to generate chances.  Weather, field, and crowd conditions on the day can come into play, too, for a road match.   So on the day, you might put in a bunch or barely get by.  Or sh*t the bed completely and lose, especially if after you blow a two goal lead in a match of which you were in control.  You never underrate anybody.  Conversely, what I don't quite understand is the tendency to overrate some individual player performances in such matches (which happens a lot on here, btw), where expectations get jacked up unrealistically, and then we have blame game shouting matches on here as part of the post mortem.

Regarding Herdman:  just do the job.  As was mentioned by others here, his line up selection is what I'd expect to see but, like his players, he needs to show he can make the in-match adjustments needed to get results in the close matches, regardless of the foe.  And even then, there will be mess ups (some great gaffers have had some game changing game management cock ups leading to their demise).  In his defence, he's under arguably the most scrutiny of any NT manager for awhile (at least since the Yallop/Mitchell time) but he also has the most offensively mindeded talent at his disposal, so the expectations come back into play.   At the end of the day, he's our gaffer and I want him to be at his best so that can help our guys be at their best.  I like the younger players he's bringing on board for a good look (Miller, Millar, Fraser)

The USA matches:  the bar being set at "getting a result at home" as a minimum is foolish.  Even evenly match top sides can blow it at home but then turn it around on the road (Spurs away in the Champions' League semi, anyone?).  So, if we end up losing at BMO, all is definitely not lost:  I hope people here can keep that in perspective.

[Kent]

2 hours ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

Those are the moments that count. The was also the moment Herdman had been "strategizing" for for literally months. and we flopped.

 With Canada's current roster, they could probably hammer minnows and the likes of Cuba with me as the gaffer!

Did our Gold Cup game against Martinique in 2013 count? If it counted then, why doesn't it count in 2019? Just because we won handily this time? Keep in mind Martinique only lost to Mexico 3-2 at the Gold Cup this year, but somehow our 4-0 win against them is just a gimme win.

It feels like the logic goes that if Canada wins, especially by a lot of goals, then it must have been an easy game so Herdman gets no credit.

If Canada loses, then Herdman gets all the blame (OK fine, Godinho got plenty of blame for the Haiti game).

If you want to make criticisms of the Mexico and Haiti games, I get it. But all those wins shouldn't just be thrown to the curb as meaningless. There is no pleasing some people when it comes to Herdman.