Herdman new head coach

[Obinna]

5 hours ago, SoccMan said:

What did Canada learn from all the past failures ? Did Canada ever learn and regroup from all the failures of the past? Did Canada learn and regroup from the 8-1 shellacking and come back and qualify for the following Hex?  So let’s not question why people have problems believing that this time it will be so much different and everything will be all right . I can recall that Gold Cup when Canada beat Guatemala in the quarters and played some beautiful soccer and only losing to crazy bad officiating to the US . So much hope after that Gold Cup that again went nowhere . But yes this time it’s different well let’s hope so but I’m going to be very skeptical because it’s soccer and this is Canada .

I think a healthy dose of skepticism is definitely warrented at this point. I for one am more skeptical now than I was before this tournament.

Will things be different this cycle? I don't know. Nobody knows.

But if we are this upset about getting knocked out of the quarterfinal, are we not moving in the right direction? 2013 & 2015 were not that long ago...

This hurts so much because expectations grew way too quickly for this group. I am just as guilty as the next guy. Herdman is most definitely guilty of this. The media is guilty of it, too.

We all believed this group could go all the way because the talent was there.

The lesson here is that you need more than talent. The group must learn that. This loss gives them catalyst to learn that. And we learned that in Gold Cup. Better to learn this now.

There was no Confederation's Cup qualification on the line. There was no World Cup qualification on the line. 

This was a complete meltdown of epic proportions, but we got further than Honduras and Trinidad.

Take a step back for a second. We had better players than 2017, and we also had a better Gold Cup too, all things considered. 

Before Gold Cup qualifying began, if you were to ask people if they'd have taken a quarterfinals apperance with our top two forwards scoring 5 and 6 goals respectively, most would have taken it as slight progress. 

Disappointing? Yes, but things are slowly getting better.

And what about Haiti? Let's give them some credit. It takes two to tango. Our capitulation goes unpunished if they weren't so remarkably clinical.

It was the worst confluence of factors, but we didn't pay the ultimate price for it. 

The sky is not falling.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Obinna

[BCM]

I wonder if there's out clauses in the contract - I'd have to think that there are...

If I'm the CSA I would make quiet investigations on veteran coaches with a history of taking young, attacking teams to the next level. We should be a lot more attractive to potential higher level coaches than ever before. If none can be found, or are too expensive, Herdman stays (unless the players have turned on him). If we can upgrade to take us to the next level, do it.

[Obinna]

3 hours ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

Sure, but complacency is the result of an attitude. Sometimes it comes from simply not caring. Most of the time it comes from being over confident in one’s abilities. Our guys certainly cared. For that reason I feel they were a bit cocky. Not everyone, mind you. Maybe just Herdman and Borjan.

The fact some of these players are at big clubs, in big leagues, is both a strength and a weakness.

Strength in that it gives them confidence they can hang with anyone in concacaf on the basis of skill.

A weakness in that it blinded them. They didn't realize that skill was not enough.

They need not lose their confidence and swagger, though I am afraid that may happen. What they need to do is keep that swagger and borrow some of that Haitian scrappiness.

They'll likely pound Cuba in the fall, but this time they'll truly understand it means nothing if they don't get the better of the Americans.

Considering what happened and where the team is at, I think it's the perfect draw no?

Cuba, the same team you blasted, you must do so again, this time with the wisdom that pummeling minnows doesn't win you anything.

Then the USA, another chance at a concacaf top dog, but this time they have 2 games in which to right those Gold Cup wrongs.

[SpecialK]

What a great read!

https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/haiti-wins-battle-wits-canada-crashes-2019-gold-cup/

Herdman was out Coached !!! He needs to be fired !!! ASAP! At this level and with the talent we have, Canada should not be out coach by Haiti (  no disrespect to Haiti ). Canada should be top 4 in CONCACAF and that’s not saying much. 

[Cheeta]

 But if Godinho, who logged less than 500 minutes at Hearts in 2019, can make the cut, surely Adekugbe could have been included, too, 

I like that line.  There are others in the article I will strongly argue against but his one sticks out to me for all of its simplistic truth.

Godinho has a bright future ahead of him, and those two critical moments aside he had long spells of very good play I thought (still need to re-watch the match), but there it is.  Those two critical moments equaled 2 goals against and 89 minutes of shine won't undo that.  Not even close. 

Good to see the finger getting pointed at the boss for his failings.  "Skill isn't enough" I think he said in the post match interview.  Nothing wrong with stating the obvious but a bit of something wrong by implying that it's the players need to learn that lesson. 

Grrrrr.

 

 

[Bison44]

I thought that line was fishy, wasnt Adekugbe hurt at the start of the tournie?  

[SpecialK]

7 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

I thought that line was fishy, wasnt Adekugbe hurt at the start of the tournie?  

Someone on here said he was but he played on full 90 for his club on the 23rd ??

even so, we had Morgan just sitting on the bench basically during the whole tourney. Also you had ZGB and Johnson as options for RB

Herdman fucked the dog!

Edited July 1, 2019 by SpecialK

[king1010]

4 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

I thought that line was fishy, wasnt Adekugbe hurt at the start of the tournie?  

So was henry though. And adekugbe returned from injury for his club team on june 16th, a couple of days earlier than henry returned. 

It looks like his injury recovery time was the same as henrys. If henry could have been called up why not sam? 

Was this herman thinking he can make do with playing players out of position in fullback spots? 

[Brazilero]

9 hours ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

One other (not so) small note: I think we came into this game under estimating Haiti. Herdman, for all his genius as a details guy, needed to prepare the guys for a tough and relentless physical battle. We were the softer team on the day, but we were also naïve and sloppy.  We needed to kill off the game, but we got complacent.  We should have known that they'd come out hard in the second half--ie because they had to--but we just didn't seem willing to pay the price. Some of our guys fought the entire game, to be fair. Though Doneil's terrible first touch resulted in the second goal against, he never gave up and remained strong and physical all came. David was smart in keeping the ball and drawing fouls. MAK was terrible. (Osorio was very good up to that point, to be honest. Head scratcher of a sub.) The fact that Herdman was getting Piette ready--very early in the second half!!--to take Hutch off says to me that Herdman himself got a head of things, was too cocky about our ability to see this game through. Borjan's error was borne our of cockiness. Again, this comes down to mentality and approach. Cocky does not win championships!

Herdsman got over confident. Amateur coaching mistakes at the National team level. Substitutions were indicative of nativity. You can’t fall asleep on anyone at this level, but players unprepared for a war will make mental mistakes when the game is in the line. National team football is not a PR fest. It’s about winning at all cost and you need to be ready to hit stride for 90 minutes with NO Plays off. We should have secured the win by managing time with subs, counter-attack methodology and stay compact. Professional fouls, disrupt the rhythm of the opponent, so they cannot operate as a team. Canadian men’s technical staff failed in their assessment of an up and coming Haitian team that beat a very difficult team in Costa Rica. Like wake up Canada.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I didn't like the hire, and was quite shocked when OZ was let go because I thought he was doing a great job. That said, Haiti are a good side right now and deserve credit. They breezed through Nations League qualifying and have some good players playing at levels equal to our own. I can't say that Canada didn't choke, but Haiti did also defeat a very experienced, battle tested Costa Rica. 

I actually think Herdman is doing a pretty good job, even after this loss. We are playing attacking football in a manner I never believed possible. He needs to make some adjustments for sure but, come on, this is Gold Cup -a tourney so bush league it happens every two years in the same fucking country. Personally, I take these all to be friendlies until WCQ.

Bring in Cordova, Gutierrez and Eustaquio to Nations League and I think we can show well against the US.

[hamiltonfan]

3 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I didn't like the hire, and was quite shocked when OZ was let go because I thought he was doing a great job. loss.

Bring in Cordova, Gutierrez and Eustaquio to Nations League and I think we can show well against the US.

 

[BearcatSA]

Timing is everything:  this program is benefiting from the emergence of some quality young attacking talent playing regularly at a good club level.  Two years ago, we played traditional regional powers Honduras and Costa Rica in our group play and played good football, as well.  When you have the talent available, any half decent manager should be able to get the most out of it (that was one thing some Zambrano detractors pointed out after his firing/Herdman's hiring:  I remember one commentator disparagingly tweeting, "Anybody could have picked that line up for the Gold Cup.").   

In Herdman's time, we've played minnows in the CNL (another sham event) plus gong show Cuba here, and though we had a strong final third of the match as the underdog vs Mexico, we fell apart like a wet paper bag vs underdog Haiti.  First test of real adversity (well, second test, if you include Borjan's key saves behind our shaky defence vs Martinique) results in an epic fail.  Watching the match in real time, even after we conceded the tying penalty goal, I really believed that we would pick it up a notch and get the winner because that's what Navy Seals do:  they take out Bin Laden.  We didn't!  

I'm looking forward to seeing the player selection going forward, notably vs the United States in the fall, especially in the back line but throughout the squad. 

 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

I just had to take a look, this is the professional bio of a certain coach.

This certain coach wiped his hands on John Herdman's face.

Does he or does he not have a lot of experience with professional men's programs, with youth, at a high level? If we had hired him say in 2012, before he took on Haiti, and we'd looked at his bio, what kind of reaction would we have had?

Teams managed
1983–1986	La Celle-Saint-Cloud
1986–1989	Paris Saint-Germain Scout
1987–1989	France U18
1989–1993	France reserve team
1993–1994	Créteil
1995	Le Tampon
1995–1997	Saint-Brieuc
1998	Amiens Sports director
1998–2000	Paris Saint-Germain Youth academy
2000–2002	Reims
2003–2004	Qatar U19
2005–2006	Clermont Foot
2006–2008	USM Alger
2009	Mauritius[2]
2009–2010	Reims
2014–2015	Haiti[3]
2017–	Haiti

[king1010]

2 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I just had to take a look, this is the professional bio of a certain coach.

This certain coach wiped his hands on John Herdman's face.

Does he or does he not have a lot of experience with professional men's programs, with youth, at a high level? If we had hired him say in 2012, before he took on Haiti, and we'd looked at his bio, what kind of reaction would we have had?

Teams managed
1983–1986	La Celle-Saint-Cloud
1986–1989	Paris Saint-Germain Scout
1987–1989	France U18
1989–1993	France reserve team
1993–1994	Créteil
1995	Le Tampon
1995–1997	Saint-Brieuc
1998	Amiens Sports director
1998–2000	Paris Saint-Germain Youth academy
2000–2002	Reims
2003–2004	Qatar U19
2005–2006	Clermont Foot
2006–2008	USM Alger
2009	Mauritius[2]
2009–2010	Reims
2014–2015	Haiti[3]
2017–	Haiti

Looks like a pretty damn good resume IMO. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 minute ago, king1010 said:

Looks like a pretty damn good resume IMO. 

He has a gap from 2010 to 2014, maybe that was for personal reasons. He has experience in Ligue 1 and with Ligue 1 youth. He has been building Haiti with consistency and continuity for almost 5 years in total. He was so overjoyed on the sidelines, he was obviously very pleased and beating us must have been huge for him. 

It is not easy to channel a naturally anarchic team like Haiti, with raw talent and a lot of athleticism, and players all at relatively low club levels. To think what happened was basically we got beat by a team of players from lower tiers than our best players, we were 100% upset and that goes down to both us, unprofessional, and them, mentality very strong. 

[Shway]

On 6/30/2019 at 11:43 AM, dyslexic nam said:

The coach can be blamed because his chatter about a new culture of resiliency was show to be a farce when we completely crumbled against a weak team while still in the lead. 

He can be blamed for substitutions that are baffling at best, incompetent at worst. 

He can be blamed for rationalizing a lack of friendlies that clearly led to us being ill-prepared for a major tournament.

He can be blamed for player selections in the squad that left us vulnerable in ways that every person in this board was aware of.  

I stayed off the forum during the  the tournament to avoid being over zealous in my assessments. But since its over I can return to past comments where  you now sound like your changing your tune of sacking Herdman...when I asked in May, if Herdman doesn't perform does he deserve the sack?

 

 

1

On 5/30/2019 at 2:26 PM, dyslexic nam said:

Honest question:

If we do make the quarter finals, can we get a moratorium on posts asking when we sack Herdman?

 

Curious to hear your thoughts on him now?

Edited July 1, 2019 by Shway

[Shway]

I hope he gets sacked. He never truly deserved this job, and with us having our best players available for once, this was a disappointing tournament. It all started at the Mexico game where he didn't start key players, but threw them on to chase the game. 

We need to see some action, things happening and not a bag of mouth that Herdman is. His wins have come only against the minnows of Concacaf.

[gator]

26 minutes ago, Shway said:

I stayed off the forum during the  the tournament to avoid be over zealous in my assesments. But since its over I can return to past comments where  you sound like your changing your tune of a sacking Herdman when I asked in May, if Herdman doesn't perform does he deserve the sack?

Herdman is our guy for now and the foreseeable future regardless of his errors in this tournament, I wanted him to succeed even though I was skeptical of his appointment, I think most doubters feel this way! He has opened himself up very quickly to a lot of deserved criticism, that's all on him and partly the CSA but that comes with the territory, based on the way we crashed out of course people will be calling for his head! It's a funny game, if Davies FK is an inch or two lower we win that game and this conversation isn't happening as we prepare for Mexico where even a 2nd loss wouldn't have been that bad for the whole vibe around the program!

[BearcatSA]

12 minutes ago, gator said:

It's a funny game, if Davies FK is an inch or two lower we win that game and this conversation isn't happening as we prepare for Mexico where even a 2nd loss wouldn't have been that bad for the whole vibe around the program!

OTOH, if we don't have Borjan coming up with a big save vs Martinique when we we're at 6s and 7s defensively, then we're having the inquest much earlier in the tourney (ifs, buts, candy, nuts).  Yes, it is a funny game!

Unless there is a change of leadership at the top of the CSA, Herdman's here for the long term, so I'm hoping all involved get it right and we make a strong run for Qatar.  With the players who have emerged, I like our ceiling.

[Yorktown FC]

The expectation was that Herdman would get us improved results vs the previous Gold Cup. And in that he has failed. Yes, the players played a part in the failure but let's me honest, if they had progressed, then all the credit would have been given to Herdman. Already seven days ago, the BS machine was spewing out headlines on Sportsnet like "Canada finds tactical and organizational clarity under John Herdman". Or sportswriters saying how Herdman played his B-team because he did not want to show his hand against Tata Martino (really, he was out-smarting Tata Martino, do these guys even know who Tata Martino is??)

Up to this moment, many of the players have also been drinking the Herdman Koolaid with even Osorio contributing to the BS machine, indicating that Herdman had changed the culture within the program. Although after Canada's 2-0 friendly win against Jamaica under Zambrano, Osorio was equally positive about Zambrano.

Confidence is earned based on results and actions, not slide show presentations or motivational speeches. Maybe I'm biased but for the most part, Herdman threw his players under the bus during the press conference, how they couldn't handle the physicality, direct play from Haiti. True, but part of the blame goes to improper preparation, poor player selection/tactics,etc. things the coach is responsible for. I feel he will have alot of damage control to do internally. And maybe, just maybe, the honeymoon with the press is over and they can start to be more critical and hold Herdman accountable. 

[Shway]

15 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

OTOH, if we don't have Borjan coming up with a big save vs Martinique when we we're at 6s and 7s defensively, then we're having the inquest much earlier in the tourney (ifs, buts, candy, nuts).  Yes, it is a funny game!

Unless there is a change of leadership at the top of the CSA, Herdman's here for the long term, so I'm hoping all involved get it right and we make a strong run for Qatar.  With the players who have emerged, I like our ceiling.

Qatar....we're talking about Qatar and we can't beat nations like Haiti who have never seen the Hex. 
I think our focus needs to be laser sharp to targets that are near. 1. Nations league, 2. Olympic Qualifying.

[Bison44]

You cant believe or fault a player praising new coaches like Osorio did.  If CSA trotted Oscar the grouch out as coach I would expect most of the players to be loyal soldiers and say they look forward to the "new culture" of trash can life is going to bring to the team.  

[Brazilero]

How long was Zambrano’s contract? Is Herdsman’s contract till 2026? 

[Ansem]

People need to calm down about Herdman. I'm not excusing anything, he was clearly outcoached by Marc Collat. I didn't like his line up against Haiti either and how he managed the 2nd half.

It's disappointing but will be a valuable learning experience going forward. I'd rather see those f--- ups here and now, than in World Cup Qualifiers.

Also, let's no kid ourselves here. We all know why he was hired and it was to fix the program the way it was done on the women's side. Could a better coach get us through Haiti? Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that our system/pathway is a mess and it's affecting our ability to unlock our true potential

We're stuck with him until at least 2022. Until then, let's hope he tones donw the ego and learn from this.

Yes the loss is disappointing but not the end of the world. We lost to a very well coached Haiti who downed the same Costa Rica that took it to Mexico. What matters now Is getting all hands on deck for the CNL and not making those mistakes against the US and advance to the Championship playoffs 

Edited July 1, 2019 by Ansem

[Ansem]

26 minutes ago, Shway said:

Qatar....we're talking about Qatar and we can't beat nations like Haiti who have never seen the Hex. 
I think our focus needs to be laser sharp to targets that are near. 1. Nations league, 2. Olympic Qualifying.

Haiti beat Costa Rica. Might be time to recognize Haiti for what it is, a strong team, not a minnow