CPL 2022 Season Attendance

[jonovision]

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

To me, this is what we have with L1O and are moving toward in Quebec and BC.  It is a useful and necessary level in our pyramid, but not what the CPL should be.

To me, the CPL needs to be a national-level league with fully professional players (even if, for now, they are low on the international soccer pay scale).  We need crowds of 5000 or more where kids can have a great game day experience and see that there is a viable, local path to the pros.  We need more Halifaxes and we need one of the teams (maybe Hamilton?) to step up and become the big club and routinely draw 10 000.

A bus travel league doesn't work in the prairies, which currently make up nearly 40% of the league's teams. 

[narduch]

8 hours ago, Kingston said:

I agree with your post.  Personally, I think the CPL should have stayed out of the three major metros (unless it was to accept MLS reserve teams).  People in Toronto and its suburbs are not interested in tier-two sports and I'm not sure the problem is much better in the other two cities.

But - the CPL obviously feels differently and, in fact, has ideas about putting multiple teams in the larger markets.  If they're going to do that, it makes sense to brand York as York, not as Toronto.  And to use non-geographic names like Valour and Calvary so that you can have another team in town and not argue about who gets to be called Winnipeg XX.  I disagree with the approach, but the logic is sound for those who accept that approach.

I disagree with you 100% that CPL should have included MLS reserve sides in its league. For a few reasons:

-It makes the league look more minor league than it already is.

-historically the 3 MLS reserve/academy sides have had very poor attendance. Worse than anything seen at York or Edmonton.

-They actually don't add stability to the league. In fact they would bring instability. Imagine if all 3 MLS clubs ran reserve sides in 2019 and then in 2022 ended up leaving for MLS Next Pro. That would have been devastating to CPL. The history of reserve sides in MLS is not pretty. Remember they had a reserve league when TFC joined. Then they scrapped that and joined USL. Then they abandoned USL to start their own league. How many years will it be when they abandon MLS Next Pro too? 5? 8?

Besides I think now that we are into year 4 of CPL, with a 9th club on the way. 2 other cities working on their expansion teams as well. I think its been proven now that CPL made the right choice to not include MLS reserve sides.

Edited May 2, 2022 by narduch

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Maybe ask your parents why they didn't teach you any manners. How dare you suggest I don't want soccer to succeed in Canada and how dare you try to tell another diehard fan of Canadian soccer where they can post. 

You want it to succeed as long as we give the keys to our American overlords and get the scraps

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, Kingston said:

My concern is that with crowds of about 1000 we won't have York United for the long term anyway.

That's why they are partnering to build a facility at Woodbine... clearly their time is up. Can we stop assuming that we know better than the owners how to manage their "F-you" money?

3 hours ago, Kingston said:

you're going to be playing to small crowds in the three big cities anyway, let the MLS teams put in their reserve sides.  The MLS teams view the reserve sides as an investment - they will fund them even if the crowd size doesn't financially justify it.  That gives you three stable CPL teams right there - almost half of what you need for a viable league.  It also means we're in practice using MLS revenue to help fund the CPL.

Then go out and establish viable CPL teams in the second tier of cities.  There are still at least ten other cities with the potential to produce the necessary sized crowds.  And that way the league doesn't drop perilously low on teams even if a couple of those markets fail in the first attempt (like Edmonton currently is).

To me this seems like a more winning strategy than what the CPL is currently pursuing.

It served the USL & NASL so well all those years... oh wait. Reserves teams brings little to no value to CPL business-wise... be real --> I don't get this notion that MLS can operate as a business but Canadians should be humble enough to operate as a charity and make decisions that makes no business sense?

Can we stop this nonsense already - the USL approach has been done and failed and yet - people want to see it done again

Edited May 2, 2022 by Ansem

[shermanator]

On today's CPL Newsroom podcast, Tommy Wheeldon indicating that Cavalry had sold close to 2000 season tickets this year. When he met with us supporters in February 2020, he had stated at that time they had 1700 for 2020, and 1500 season tickets in 2019. 

That type of organic growth is critical to growing a sustainable domestic league. 

[shermanator]

Also Tommy mentioned he had heard attendance was around 4200 yesterday. Will wait until the official attendance of course but for those who want to count individual butts in seats, here you go...

[CDNFootballer]

CPL as Canada's D1 league needs to be in the major media markets and they've stated the same previously.

Dumbing down the league requirements with smaller stadiums, making it into a bus league, and letting the USA's D1 MLS reserve/farm teams in the league is a quick way to failure.

CPL will be fine imo and despite some hicups the league is going in the right direction. The sport is on the rise in Canada and the league will rise over the years in stature and success as Canada's D1 just as MLS did for the USA.

[Ed_S]

14 minutes ago, shermanator said:

... heard attendance was around 4200 yesterday. Will wait until the official attendance of course but for those who want to count individual butts in seats, here you go...

That's what I wanted to see. Thanks.

[SpursFlu]

5 hours ago, Kingston said:

I'm totally willing to give all sports leagues a pass on 2020 and 2021.  That said, although I'm new to this board, I've held my opinions about the CPL and the big three markets since before the CPL played its first game.

And maybe I'm wrong.  And I do want to be optimistic.  Heck, even for there to be a new league to follow is an act of optimism on many people's parts.  If we're going to discuss the CPL here, however, we also need to temper optimism with data.  For example, it isn't a failure of optimism to say that Edmonton is in existential trouble or to say there may be a better approach when the team in the largest market is barely able to draw 1000 fans.

I'm actually not completely disagreeing with you. I really think the smart play is the smaller growing markets that are entertainment starved and dying for some love. But I do think there are opportunities in the large markets if done correctly. At the very least from a player development perspective 

And if you're new to the forum and wondering why it seems you poked a hornets nest you should know people have been arguing on this forum about how if why a Canadian league should look going back forever. It's kinda like the Hatfields & McCoys of this forum

Edited May 3, 2022 by SpursFlu

[longlugan]

6 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Maybe ask your parents why they didn't teach you any manners. How dare you suggest I don't want soccer to succeed in Canada and how dare you try to tell another diehard fan of Canadian soccer where they can post. 

Well that begs the question once again...have you been to a CPL game yet? Stop pretending to be a die hard Canadian soccer fan when you actually are a diehard American soccer fan and see the CPL as an impediment to your fantasy of having all Canadian teams tied to the USSF. Stop pretending and just come out and admit it you coward. 

[Stryker911]

3 hours ago, shermanator said:

Also Tommy mentioned he had heard attendance was around 4200 yesterday. Will wait until the official attendance of course but for those who want to count individual butts in seats, here you go...

Pretty jealous of this. 10 stadiums across the country like this would be unreal.

[Macksam]

9 hours ago, Kingston said:

My concern is that with crowds of about 1000 we won't have York United for the long term anyway.

If you're going to be playing to small crowds in the three big cities anyway, let the MLS teams put in their reserve sides.  The MLS teams view the reserve sides as an investment - they will fund them even if the crowd size doesn't financially justify it.  That gives you three stable CPL teams right there - almost half of what you need for a viable league.  It also means we're in practice using MLS revenue to help fund the CPL.

Then go out and establish viable CPL teams in the second tier of cities.  There are still at least ten other cities with the potential to produce the necessary sized crowds.  And that way the league doesn't drop perilously low on teams even if a couple of those markets fail in the first attempt (like Edmonton currently is).

To me this seems like a more winning strategy than what the CPL is currently pursuing.

What would be the difference between The Bolsonaro's losing money on operating York United in the CPL vs MLSE losing money on operating TFC 2 in the CPL?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

12 hours ago, Kingston said:

That's why I said what we have in L1O and are moving toward in Quebec and BC.

Yes, there is still too high a percentage of L1O teams in the GTA and too many play in front of double digit "crowds".  Roughly half of the league is outside the GTA now, however, and some teams are drawing hundreds...

The new possibilities for CanPL expansion that appear to have emerged since launch are in regional Ontario, i.e. Peterborough, Barrie and whatever is going on in Windsor with David Clanachan. London and Kitchener could have been contenders as well at launch in the shape of the former PDL teams if stadia requirements had been less stringent.

L1O as it actually is rather than the way it is described in marketing rhetoric doesn't really cut it where the ambitions of these sorts of markets are concerned as a significant spectator event. The problem is that these sorts of regional Ontario cities also don't fit comfortably into the whole CanPL vs MLS narrative that some people are completely obsessed with so L1O is what they are probably going to be stuck with.

Clubs in regional Ontario cities could probably draw more of a crowd than York United does in much the same way as happens in an OHL context where players from the GTA are moved out to where people are actually likely to be willing to pay to watch them play.

Vancouver Whatevers vs Simcoe County Rovers isn't "D1" sounding enough for some people though so CanPL's expansion agenda probably isn't going to be about trying out what might work better than York United or FCE to find a way of doing things for Canadian pro soccer that is genuinely sustainable off into the distant future in an OHL, WHL, QMJHL sort of way but about what allows them to keep tilting at windmills in their minds where MLS is concerned.

[Kingston]

7 hours ago, Macksam said:

What would be the difference between The Bolsonaro's losing money on operating York United in the CPL vs MLSE losing money on operating TFC 2 in the CPL?

In short, York is Bosonaro's main soccer team. At some point he presumably expects it to be a financial success because, even if he's a billionaire who could afford to lose a couple of million a year it's unlikely he'll want to forever.  So York's existence eventually requires at least five times as many fans as they are currently drawing.  That seems problematic to me.

TFC2 is an investment for MLSE.  The team will be there regardless of attendance or not.  That's what I mean by it providing a stable team for the league.

I get it is far from pretty and is not the way anyone actually wants the CPL to exist in the big three markets.  I'm just saying it might be the easiest, more secure way.  The hard data from York is certainly bad.  But, hey, maybe I'm wrong - that would actually be nice. 

[narduch]

Not exactly sure what the president of Brazil has to do with York United.

[RS]

15 hours ago, Ed_S said:

Was looking for attendance figures but this thread seems to have gone off the rails into a pissing match.

Par for the course.

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

Not exactly sure what the president of Brazil has to do with York United.

Touche lol. I made a funny by accident. 

I meant Baldasarra. 

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

In short, York is Bosonaro's main soccer team. At some point he presumably expects it to be a financial success because, even if he's a billionaire who could afford to lose a couple of million a year it's unlikely he'll want to forever.  So York's existence eventually requires at least five times as many fans as they are currently drawing.  That seems problematic to me.

TFC2 is an investment for MLSE.  The team will be there regardless of attendance or not.  That's what I mean by it providing a stable team for the league.

I get it is far from pretty and is not the way anyone actually wants the CPL to exist in the big three markets.  I'm just saying it might be the easiest, more secure way.  The hard data from York is certainly bad.  But, hey, maybe I'm wrong - that would actually be nice. 

So the difference is Baldasarra is looking for this thing to eventually make him some money while MLSE just wants to use it as a platform to develop players and don't care about the losses. Alright, that's an argument but it pretty much ends at that as anything after this is pure speculation. 

[Ansem]

Let's go back to the topic?

[Aird25]

If only there was some way for teams to be placed in the top division based on merit or something, and for teams to be able to spend what is appropriate based on their revenue

[Lurker]

Still no attendance numbers for week 4?  Asking for a friend.

[shermanator]

The league's website has now updated all attendances for week 4 on their match reports. Attendances are as follows:

• Edmonton vs Pacific - 765
• York vs Ottawa - 1043
• Halifax vs Edmonton - 6213
• Cavalry vs Pacific - 4206

For the 7 clubs who've had home games, attendance change compared to last year is as follows. Yes, there is value in this information as we can see how clubs are faring coming out of the pandemic:

• Cavalry +65%
• Edmonton -29%
• Forge +1%
• HFX Wanderers +20%
• Ottawa -2%
• Pacific +21%
• York +15%

[Cblake]

1,106 at the York Forge match Friday. Even the offer of $5 tickets was not enough to give them a boost but then again the Leafs were playing which I am sure kept people home or in the bars. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

If it was game seven in the playoffs the Leafs game might be a significant factor but think that's a stretch for a regular season game. Soccer's hardcore fanbase in southern Ontario doesn't overlap to any huge extent with hockey's in my experience. More a case of people only having a passive interest at best in the other sport.

At some point there needs to be an acceptance that the interest level (or lack thereof) in York United and FCE is what it is and even $5 tickets and Tranmere Rovers style Friday evening timeslots won't shift the needle to any huge extent. Don't think we are seeing anything at this point on attendance that differs hugely from what was happening in the Fall season of 2019.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[danninho]

FWIW I saw 2 people watching the Leafs game on their phone/tablet while at the game last night and overheard others talking about it.

Even though the York attendance numbers are worrying, the crowd did seem livelier. This, along with the club’s ticket promotions  and team’s early season positive results will hopefully lead to better attendance.