CPL 2022 Season Attendance

[SoccMan]

4 hours ago, narduch said:

You sound like you have no idea what you are talking about.

The Toronto Rock were basically the buzz of the city in Toronto pre-TFC starting.

Whatever you are trying to read from a team playing a totally different sport in an indoor stadium is nearly irrelevant.

Really, I don`t think there is anything you can glean from the state of CPL attendances based on the popularity of the Toronto Rock.

 

I know what I’m talking about don’t worry bud. Yes I know the Rock were getting great attendances back in the day and the last few years in Toronto attendance had gone down quite a bit. Moreover, yes they have been around a long time compared to Forge . However, with Toronto still in their name and this season playing out of Hamilton they have had crowds at times twice the size of what Forge has ever gotten besides their first ever game . However, when I read an earlier post that a local station mentions every Hamilton and Toronto team but Forge in their sportscast that’s truly sad that we are still dealing with crap like this in 2022. Moreover, the two major national sports networks ignoring this League doesn’t help either. Again just want to say owners in this league need to realize that the stadium, the venue plays such a big part in getting people in the seats . It’s not going to happen overnight but especially with new teams coming in the league in the future , consideration  needs to be taken in the type of stadium these new teams will play in . If proper stadiums can be built at least for the new teams , smaller four sided stadiums with proper roofs over the stands if possible people  will come I have no doubt .The CPL teams I would love to go watch a home game at the moment are Pacific, HFX Wanderers and Cavalry mainly for the stadiums they play out of. I have no desire to go to any of the other stadiums unfortunately. I go to York United games because they are literally in my backyard more or less and represent the area I live in but how I wish their stadium was better than what they play in now . Hopefully I get my wish if that new Woodbine stadium is a go .

[red card]

Given NLL's history of about 35 years with non-stop relocation and/or folding of teams, it's not something the CPL needs to emulate or be envious of.

Many NLL clubs become shooting stars for a few years but then often drop precipitously. The new Vegas team is the latest splashy iteration with Gretzky, Nash, Dustin Johnson & Nets owner & Canadian Joe Tsai as the co-owners. 

The Sask Rush team was recently sold for a reported US$10 million which isn't too far off from 4 year old CPL valuations.

Other than becoming big time commercially, there is also no broader arching story driving the NLL. Though, they do say lacrosse is like soccer in the US in the 90s since lacrosse is one of the fastest growing kids' sports. And in recent years, they have finally begun to embrace the Indigenous roots of the sport.

The NLL commissioner was previously an MLS VP and President of both the Tampa Bay Mutiny & Metrostars and then founder/CEO of the Union. He has said the growth of the NLL is most dependent on attendance. He also wants the teams to produce their own digital content to increase awareness.  But after 6 years on the job, the commish left the NLL in February. So, the NLL continues its 1 step forward, 1 step back operation mode.

In terms of Canadian tv, most games are streamed than being on TSN12345. TSN tv ratings have been below 100k this year with a low of 18k. 

It's not a big money windfall as the deal is a combo of rights fee and NLL selling ad time which is shared with TSN. In the US, NLL also pays ESPN for the production costs while TSN is picking up the bill in Canada.

 

 

[K Edgar]

[narduch]

I thought Ottawa's first game was over 5k?

[Cicero]

19 hours ago, red card said:

Given NLL's history of about 35 years with non-stop relocation and/or folding of teams, it's not something the CPL needs to emulate or be envious of.

Many NLL clubs become shooting stars for a few years but then often drop precipitously. The new Vegas team is the latest splashy iteration with Gretzky, Nash, Dustin Johnson & Nets owner & Canadian Joe Tsai as the co-owners. 

The Sask Rush team was recently sold for a reported US$10 million which isn't too far off from 4 year old CPL valuations.

Other than becoming big time commercially, there is also no broader arching story driving the NLL. Though, they do say lacrosse is like soccer in the US in the 90s since lacrosse is one of the fastest growing kids' sports. And in recent years, they have finally begun to embrace the Indigenous roots of the sport.

The NLL commissioner was previously an MLS VP and President of both the Tampa Bay Mutiny & Metrostars and then founder/CEO of the Union. He has said the growth of the NLL is most dependent on attendance. He also wants the teams to produce their own digital content to increase awareness.  But after 6 years on the job, the commish left the NLL in February. So, the NLL continues its 1 step forward, 1 step back operation mode.

In terms of Canadian tv, most games are streamed than being on TSN12345. TSN tv ratings have been below 100k this year with a low of 18k. 

It's not a big money windfall as the deal is a combo of rights fee and NLL selling ad time which is shared with TSN. In the US, NLL also pays ESPN for the production costs while TSN is picking up the bill in Canada.

 

 

Now that we're completely off-topic. Funny story about the Rock. Some years back one of my kids had the head coach of the Rock for their elementary school teacher. The main recollection was that he would drink four or five extra large Tim Hortons coffees every day. He had five kids, was teaching full-time, coaching the rock and was part owner of a lacrosse store. I don't know if the Rock don't pay well enough to just be a coach, or whether he didn't figure it would last long enough to give up his other pursuits.

[Pottsy3]

33 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Now that we're completely off-topic. Funny story about the Rock. Some years back one of my kids had the head coach of the Rock for their elementary school teacher. The main recollection was that he would drink four or five extra large Tim Hortons coffees every day. He had five kids, was teaching full-time, coaching the rock and was part owner of a lacrosse store. I don't know if the Rock don't pay well enough to just be a coach, or whether he didn't figure it would last long enough to give up his other pursuits.

This is actually pretty frequent in St. Catharines, a lot of NLL players seem to end up being teachers.

My high school guidance counsellor was playing for the Rochester Knighthawks and is now their head coach as well. I never noticed him missing a school day, even when they travelled for away games. I also know of a few goalies for the Bandits over the years who work as teachers in the same school board. Seasons are fairly short and home games/practices are somewhat manageable if they're with the Rock/Bandits/Knighthawks and living in the greater golden horseshoe. It's managing the road trips that impress me.

[Stanley]

7 hours ago, Cicero said:

 I don't know if the Rock don't pay well enough to just be a coach, or whether he didn't figure it would last long enough to give up his other pursuits.

I don't know how to explain the NLL but it's hardly a real professional league.  I once worked in West Vancouver with Curt Malawsky who at the time was playing for the Calgary Roughnecks.  During the NLL season he would work all week in West Vancouver and then leave work early on a Friday to play a weekend game and be back at work on a Monday.  Not even enough time to have a practice.  

Edited April 23, 2022 by Stanley
Contained messed up English.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

This clip provides a pretty good idea of what sort of crowd was at York vs Cavalry:

 

 

[Watchmen]

Did they announce attendance for it?

[Mikmacdo]

I would guess 1000-1100. maybe a little more than half of what was there in the opener. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

The red seats need to be close to a third full for 1100 even allowing for people standing on the concourse, in the supporters section or sitting in the expensive seats on the far side. The student night promo doesn't appear to have made much headway on the York U campus in other words.

No easy answers because this is what crowds for lower budget pro soccer with no big name imports have consistently looked like in the GTA since the late 80s regardless of whether the CSA or the USSF were doing the sanctioning. If the Argos are a hard sell because they are not viewed as major league enough then CanPL was always likely to be a struggle.

Good thing about TO though is that it probably doesn't matter that much because there has pretty much always been a rich first generation immigrant dude ready to pay the bills to keep at least one club like this afloat as a personal vanity project unlike in a city like Edmonton where the Fath brothers are not going to be easy to replace when there are only 600 or 670 showing up.

Which brings us to an interesting point. If you were CanPL actively trying to sell FCE would you publicly announce numbers like that? The rationale I can come up with is that keeping it real with sobering crowd numbers and the presence of a league owned club very visibly being propped up by loan deals helps to keep players union activism in check. The now departed David Clanachan's upbeat but almost certainly misleading rhetoric about having a $150 million deal with Mediapro etc on the other hand no doubt fueled expectations as to what should be doable.

[narduch]

 

[Ftduck]

^ Surprised it was over 3000.

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

 

Not bad IMO.

32 minutes ago, Ftduck said:

^ Surprised it was over 3000.

Really? I saw the highlights and it seems about right. 

[toontownman]

Can't believe there was even 1000 there were zero people on the other side when they did a zoom shot showing that stand at kick off. Just a sparsely populated lower tier on the camera facing side.

I feel like the numbers are skewed somewhere. No way there was just 670 in the first Edmonton match. The majority of people were sat on the opposite side to the camera and there looked like more people than at forge today. Maybe I am just being deceived by the size of the two stadiums being very different and sparse at forge is still a lot of people. 🤷

Edited April 24, 2022 by toontownman

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, toontownman said:

Can't believe there was even 1000 there were zero people on the other side when they did a zoom shot showing that stand at kick off. Just a sparsely populated lower tier on the camera facing side.

I feel like the numbers are skewed somewhere. No way there was just 670 in the first Edmonton match. The majority of people were sat on the opposite side to the camera and there looked like more people than at forge today. Maybe I am just being deceived by the size of the two stadiums being very different and sparse at forge is still a lot of people. 🤷

Probably this. That lower tier that the camera faces is like 10,000 seats so that section bring sparsely populated amounting to 3,000 + is probably the actual number. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Macksam

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 hours ago, toontownman said:

Can't believe there was even 1000 there were zero people on the other side when they did a zoom shot showing that stand at kick off. Just a sparsely populated lower tier on the camera facing side...

It's the mezzanine level the Forge use on the camera side along with the club level for corporate suites rather than the lower tier so may not have been quite as bad as it appeared. Didn't see the zoom shot though.

[Cheeta]

3 hours ago, toontownman said:

Can't believe there was even 1000 there were zero people on the other side when they did a zoom shot showing that stand at kick off. Just a sparsely populated lower tier on the camera facing side.

...

 

Really?  I thought it was a decent crowd, would have guessed close to 3K from some of the camera shots in the 1st half. 

I'd expect THF is similar to IGF in the grandstand.  IG Field is 28 rows to the concorse.  My section is average sized I'd  think and it's about 500 or so.  Thought I heard IG Field offers just under 9K for the Valour matches, but then there are sections opened behind the goal line at IGF which aren't at THF.

Do like that THF has those "bookends" draped, something we don't see in Winnipeg although I believe that was the original plan.   Creates a crowd perimeter.  Maybe this year.  We'll see.  

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

[SoccMan]

10 hours ago, Cheeta said:

Really?  I thought it was a decent crowd, would have guessed close to 3K from some of the camera shots in the 1st half. 

I'd expect THF is similar to IGF in the grandstand.  IG Field is 28 rows to the concorse.  My section is average sized I'd  think and it's about 500 or so.  Thought I heard IG Field offers just under 9K for the Valour matches, but then there are sections opened behind the goal line at IGF which aren't at THF.

Do like that THF has those "bookends" draped, something we don't see in Winnipeg although I believe that was the original plan.   Creates a crowd perimeter.  Maybe this year.  We'll see.  

Again I know why THF is  used , need to fill dates at the stadium, but playing in 25000 seat type stadiums with even 5000 people there is not going to sell this league to casuals . Move to McMaster get 3000 to 5000 there and see what a difference in terms of atmosphere it will make . Love it or hate it it’s the reason the MLS eventually went to smaller stadiums for the majority of their teams . Watched the Pacific game and the Forge game and it was night and day in terms of atmosphere and just overall look . Need at least 10000 in stadiums the size of THF for the atmosphere and look of the game changes , but unfortunately even then the old 1970’s look of THF with just two big grandstands doesn’t help . Moreover , at least the Winnipeg stadium has a more intimate and enclosed look even though it’s still too big when only 3 to 4000 are showing up .

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

11 hours ago, Cheeta said:

... Thought I heard IG Field offers just under 9K for the Valour matches, ...

Think it's closer to 7k. It's relatively easy to figure it out on Ticketmaster by multipling # of rows by # of seats for each section. Might double check on that at some point.

[Cheeta]

^  Probably right.  Have it in my head they had to open a couple of sections along the south side for the opener and that promo there in 2019.

Still leaves the question why they don't drap 143.  It would look a Hell of a lot better, would create that perimeter on the starboard side of The Trench and they could continue to open sections, as needed (fingers crossed) around the south side of the stadium just as they have in the past.  Install it and forget it until June when CFL kicks off. 

 

[ATM]

21 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The red seats need to be close to a third full for 1100 even allowing for people standing on the concourse, in the supporters section or sitting in the expensive seats on the far side. The student night promo doesn't appear to have made much headway on the York U campus in other words.

No easy answers because this is what crowds for lower budget pro soccer with no big name imports have consistently looked like in the GTA since the late 80s regardless of whether the CSA or the USSF were doing the sanctioning. If the Argos are a hard sell because they are not viewed as major league enough then CanPL was always likely to be a struggle.

Good thing about TO though is that it probably doesn't matter that much because there has pretty much always been a rich first generation immigrant dude ready to pay the bills to keep at least one club like this afloat as a personal vanity project unlike in a city like Edmonton where the Fath brothers are not going to be easy to replace when there are only 600 or 670 showing up.

Which brings us to an interesting point. If you were CanPL actively trying to sell FCE would you publicly announce numbers like that? The rationale I can come up with is that keeping it real with sobering crowd numbers and the presence of a league owned club very visibly being propped up by loan deals helps to keep players union activism in check. The now departed David Clanachan's upbeat but almost certainly misleading rhetoric about having a $150 million deal with Mediapro etc on the other hand no doubt fueled expectations as to what should be doable.

I am guessing we are talking about York United.....that is exactly what is happening there....but how much longer will a rich man keep a team afloat  and yet lose money. They are rich for a reason.

IF, an owner cannot be found how long will the LEAGUE allow FC Edmonton to suck the money from the league's account. 

Based on our population we should strive for stadiums 7k-10k. We cannot expect to have crowds as large as the U.S.

And with the cost of living increasing in this country people will be careful where they spend their entertainment money. And with so many options. Look at TFC, they are doing well in the standings yet they are not selling out like they did when Giovinco was here.  As you have mentioned, if there is no big name signings you will not get the crowds. When Insigne does arrive a team like York United and MAYBE Forge will see a slight drop....kids and their soccer parents will want to spend there money to see Insigne.

[Watchmen]

Let's also keep in mind that, regardless of a pandemic arriving and restrictions being in place, a drop in attendance was always likely for most markets. It's what happened in MLS - Year 1 had the highest average attendance for the first 15 years of the league, not getting back to that number until 2011.  The novelty of a new team/league wears off and results start to matter as your local team builds a history (good or bad).

[narduch]