CPL 2022 Season Attendance

[Kingston]

On 4/30/2022 at 6:07 PM, BurndenAce said:

Now York have rebranded and are trying to pretend that they're a Toronto based team, which just isn't going to fly. They would have been better off marketing themselves as that from the get-go (similar to whatever is going to be announced in Vancouver) and just stuck with the losses until a community developed. Doesn't matter how many advertisements they put up on the Subway, the minute they decided to represent York Region and not the city of Toronto, they lost a huge part of Toronto, which might seriously harm their future prospects.

I agree with your post.  Personally, I think the CPL should have stayed out of the three major metros (unless it was to accept MLS reserve teams).  People in Toronto and its suburbs are not interested in tier-two sports and I'm not sure the problem is much better in the other two cities.

But - the CPL obviously feels differently and, in fact, has ideas about putting multiple teams in the larger markets.  If they're going to do that, it makes sense to brand York as York, not as Toronto.  And to use non-geographic names like Valour and Calvary so that you can have another team in town and not argue about who gets to be called Winnipeg XX.  I disagree with the approach, but the logic is sound for those who accept that approach.

[SpursFlu]

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

I agree with your post.  Personally, I think the CPL should have stayed out of the three major metros (unless it was to accept MLS reserve teams).  People in Toronto and its suburbs are not interested in tier-two sports and I'm not sure the problem is much better in the other two cities.

But - the CPL obviously feels differently and, in fact, has ideas about putting multiple teams in the larger markets.  If they're going to do that, it makes sense to brand York as York, not as Toronto.  And to use non-geographic names like Valour and Calvary so that you can have another team in town and not argue about who gets to be called Winnipeg XX.  I disagree with the approach, but the logic is sound for those who accept that approach.

But if they stayed out of the Toronto area they wouldn't have York United. There would be 1 less CPL team 

[SpursFlu]

On 5/1/2022 at 10:20 AM, Aird25 said:

I think that sentiment is pretty ubiquitous in many cities. Just look at the discussions about Langford and Langley as examples 

This was an interesting article I came across which anecdotally many have noted in the recent transformation of the Lower Mainland. At my last Whitecaps I noticed they've really lost the younger generation. I didn't see a lot of kids or even young adults at the game. Lets say under 25. The majority of the crowd seemed to be middle agers 40 plus out drinking it up. Same old faces just looking a bit more weathered. A few families but not too many. I think its essential to bring in that next generation. I'm not sure if Montreal and Toronto is having the same phenomenon. Not sure of Yorks demographics 

https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2022/04/29/Where-Did-Vancouver-Children-Go/

Edited May 2, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

5 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

But if they stayed out of the Toronto area they wouldn't have York United. There would be 1 less CPL team 

Not necessarily, if they had eased up on stadium requirements and aimed a bit lower on break even they probably could have been in cities like London and Kitchener with the former PDL ownership groups at launch.

[SpursFlu]

15 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Not necessarily, if they had eased up on stadium requirements and aimed a bit lower on break even they probably could have been in cities like London and Kitchener with the former PDL ownership groups at launch.

If they eased up anymore you'd have teams playing in someone's backyard. I like York United. The look and feel now is good. They just need to hyper focus on a demographic and win

By the way.. how did Halifax do or is it all just negativity around here

Edited May 2, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

18 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

If they eased up anymore you'd have teams playing in someone's backyard. I like York United...

They are drawing 3000 or so in several markets ignoring the outliers in both directions. Not enough to justify using the CFL stadia in Hamilton, Ottawa and Winnipeg but enough to have a small Halifax style pop-up rocking. 6000 seats wasn't happening in London but something half that size may have been doable. 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[SpursFlu]

2 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

They are drawing 3000 or so in several markets ignoring the outliers in both directions. Not enough to justify using the CFL stadia in Hamilton, Ottawa and Winnipeg but enough to have a small Halifax style pop-up rocking. 6000 seats wasn't happening in London but something half that size may have been doable. 

I like the secondary markets as well but we have a league now and lets see how things go. My message to the people of the York region, screw the MLS and TFC go to a York United game. You're so close to the action you could bounce a can of vodka water off Martin Nash's head if you wanted to

[shermanator]

Ozzie buy a ticket to a game or shut the fuck up already. You've been against the idea of a domestic league for years, and it's going to succeed in spite of your attempts to drag it down.

Edited May 2, 2022 by shermanator

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Always seems to come back to this MLS vs CanPL thing on here. Suspect you would find that a sizable portion of the regular York crowd do both because having more pro soccer is viewed as a good thing and they don't see it as either/or based on some Titanic struggle revolving around nationalism.

[SpursFlu]

11 minutes ago, shermanator said:

Ozzie buy a ticket to a game or shut the fuck up already. You've been against the idea of a domestic league for years, and it's going to succeed in spite of your attempts to drag it down.

Remember those old action movies where the hero saves a woman but she's just complaining the whole time so eventually the hero knocks her out so he can just carry her the rest of the way because her complaining is holding them up and allowing the villain to catch up. I think we just have to fling Ozzie over our shoulder and jump off the cliff at this point because the villain and his goons are hot on our trail

Edited May 2, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

8 minutes ago, shermanator said:

Ozzie buy a ticket to a game or shut the fuck up already. You've been against the idea of a domestic league for years, and it's going to succeed in spite of your attempts to drag it down.

Maybe ask your parents why they didn't teach you any manners. How dare you suggest I don't want soccer to succeed in Canada and how dare you try to tell another diehard fan of Canadian soccer where they can post. 

[Kingston]

57 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

But if they stayed out of the Toronto area they wouldn't have York United. There would be 1 less CPL team 

My concern is that with crowds of about 1000 we won't have York United for the long term anyway.

If you're going to be playing to small crowds in the three big cities anyway, let the MLS teams put in their reserve sides.  The MLS teams view the reserve sides as an investment - they will fund them even if the crowd size doesn't financially justify it.  That gives you three stable CPL teams right there - almost half of what you need for a viable league.  It also means we're in practice using MLS revenue to help fund the CPL.

Then go out and establish viable CPL teams in the second tier of cities.  There are still at least ten other cities with the potential to produce the necessary sized crowds.  And that way the league doesn't drop perilously low on teams even if a couple of those markets fail in the first attempt (like Edmonton currently is).

To me this seems like a more winning strategy than what the CPL is currently pursuing.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

6 minutes ago, Kingston said:

...Then go out and establish viable CPL teams in the second tier of cities.  There are still at least ten other cities with the potential to produce the necessary sized crowds....

Starting smaller with more teams in smaller markets would potentially have made a bus travel regional format doable similar to what they do in the ECHL in hockey or minor league baseball which lowers costs. There were other approaches that could have been and still could be used.

[SpursFlu]

17 minutes ago, Kingston said:

My concern is that with crowds of about 1000 we won't have York United for the long term anyway.

If you're going to be playing to small crowds in the three big cities anyway, let the MLS teams put in their reserve sides.  The MLS teams view the reserve sides as an investment - they will fund them even if the crowd size doesn't financially justify it.  That gives you three stable CPL teams right there - almost half of what you need for a viable league.  It also means we're in practice using MLS revenue to help fund the CPL.

Then go out and establish viable CPL teams in the second tier of cities.  There are still at least ten other cities with the potential to produce the necessary sized crowds.  And that way the league doesn't drop perilously low on teams even if a couple of those markets fail in the first attempt (like Edmonton currently is).

To me this seems like a more winning strategy than what the CPL is currently pursuing.

I know everyone now just likes to act like it didn't happen but the last 2 years were absolutely bizarro world. Not exactly conducive for launching a new sports league. Or developing soccer talent, which is a big component of this league. I think everyone should just remain positive. There is a lot to be positive about. Not all teams are created equal in football leagues. I watched the game and thought the environment reminded me of Swangard back in the day. It will catch on plus their jerseys are sweet. Be patient 

Edited May 2, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Kingston]

4 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Starting smaller with more teams in smaller markets would potentially have made a bus travel regional format doable similar to what they do in the ECHL in hockey or minor league baseball which lowers costs. There were other approaches that could have been and still could be used.

To me, this is what we have with L1O and are moving toward in Quebec and BC.  It is a useful and necessary level in our pyramid, but not what the CPL should be.

To me, the CPL needs to be a national-level league with fully professional players (even if, for now, they are low on the international soccer pay scale).  We need crowds of 5000 or more where kids can have a great game day experience and see that there is a viable, local path to the pros.  We need more Halifaxes and we need one of the teams (maybe Hamilton?) to step up and become the big club and routinely draw 10 000.

[Kingston]

8 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I know everyone now just likes to act like it didn't happen but the last 2 years were absolutely bizarro world. Not exactly conducive for lunching a new sports league. Or developing soccer talent, which is a big component of this league. I think everyone should just remain positive. There is a lot to be positive about. Not all teams are created equal in football leagues. I watched the game and thought the environment reminded me of Swangard back in the day. It will catch on plus their jerseys are sweet. Be patient 

I'm totally willing to give all sports leagues a pass on 2020 and 2021.  That said, although I'm new to this board, I've held my opinions about the CPL and the big three markets since before the CPL played its first game.

And maybe I'm wrong.  And I do want to be optimistic.  Heck, even for there to be a new league to follow is an act of optimism on many people's parts.  If we're going to discuss the CPL here, however, we also need to temper optimism with data.  For example, it isn't a failure of optimism to say that Edmonton is in existential trouble or to say there may be a better approach when the team in the largest market is barely able to draw 1000 fans.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 minutes ago, Kingston said:

To me, this is what we have with L1O and are moving toward in Quebec and BC...

Understand where you are coming from but is that the reality of what these leagues are though? No more than friends and family at a lot of L1O games from what I understand and basically amateur for the most part rather than semi-pro to protect NCAA eligibilities. Problem gets back to having too many teams in the major metro areas where it is pretty much impossible to try to turn that level of soccer into a spectator event nowadays.

[Kingston]

4 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Understand where you are coming from but is that the reality of what these leagues are though? No more than friends and family at a lot of L1O games from what I understand and basically amateur for the most part rather than semi-pro to protect NCAA eligibilities. Problem gets back to having too many teams in the major metro areas where it is pretty much impossible to try to turn that level of soccer into a spectator event nowadays.

That's why I said what we have in L1O and are moving toward in Quebec and BC.

Yes, there is still too high a percentage of L1O teams in the GTA and too many play in front of double digit "crowds".  Roughly half of the league is outside the GTA now, however, and some teams are drawing hundreds.  With typical budgets in the $100 to $150 k range, that's really all it takes.  It's not pro but it's D3 and it's doing a good job of feeding the CPL.

The PLSQ is just starting to expand outside Montreal.  BC is obviously brand new with limited teams in total, let alone outside Vancouver.  So they're a bit behind L1O.  Still, the D3 level of the pyramid is started and appears to be growing stronger each year.  I'm good with that even if it stays amateur.

[Big_M]

plsq isnt starting to expand outside montreal...they did years ago with gatineau and quebec and it failed financially

[Stanley]

58 minutes ago, Kingston said:

If you're going to be playing to small crowds in the three big cities anyway, let the MLS teams put in their reserve sides.  The MLS teams view the reserve sides as an investment - they will fund them even if the crowd size doesn't financially justify it.  That gives you three stable CPL teams right there - almost half of what you need for a viable league.  It also means we're in practice using MLS revenue to help fund the CPL.

 

It might just be me, but I have no interest in a CPL with MLS reserve sides in it.

[Kingston]

16 minutes ago, Big_M said:

plsq isnt starting to expand outside montreal...they did years ago with gatineau and quebec and it failed financially

Re-expanding then?  They acquired Ottawa from L1O and have expansion teams in Joilette and Quebec City.  That's three outside Montreal for now.

[Kingston]

8 minutes ago, Stanley said:

It might just be me, but I have no interest in a CPL with MLS reserve sides in it.

Honest question:  Why not?

[Stanley]

24 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Honest question:  Why not?

Because I'm not interested in Canada's premier league being considered the MLS farm league....and I have no interest in MLS any more.

[Ed_S]

Was looking for attendance figures but this thread seems to have gone off the rails into a pissing match. Any attendance figures for yesterday's Cavalry home opener? Crowd was very sparse at kick off but grew substantially with late arrivals.

[Bison44]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

My concern is that with crowds of about 1000 we won't have York United for the long term anyway.

If you're going to be playing to small crowds in the three big cities anyway, let the MLS teams put in their reserve sides.  The MLS teams view the reserve sides as an investment - they will fund them even if the crowd size doesn't financially justify it.  That gives you three stable CPL teams right there - almost half of what you need for a viable league.  It also means we're in practice using MLS revenue to help fund the CPL.

You know that TFC2 doesnt even try and sell tickets to their games?? L1O at least has fans eh?? Its not even worth TFC's while to try and get any fans to show up.  Cripes everyone bitches about the optics of having 3-4k fans in a football stadium, how is the TV optics when you can hear each indivdual players mom cheer them on like timbits soccer?