CPL 2022 Season Attendance

[Kingston]

The CPL has updated their most recent league attendances.

Calgary at Edmonton May 6:  1044

Halifax at Winnipeg May 7:  3277

Pacific at Ottawa May 7:  3555

[Watchmen]

10 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

I want a skytrain to stop at my house

You would 100% complain about the "skyrocketing crime rate" outside your house.

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

You would 100% complain about the "skyrocketing crime rate" outside your house.

Is that what happens when the Skytrain comes around? 

[SthMelbRed]

2 hours ago, Macksam said:

Is that what happens when the Skytrain comes around? 

There used to be a few dope dealers hanging around outside a lot of the SkyTrain stations on the original line back when I still lived in BC. Now, when I go back, I use the newer line between Holdom or Brentwood and downtown. I never notice anything untowards like what you used to see outside Columbia Station back in the day.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

A couple of additional points on the Swangard and Claude Robillard angle:

On Swangard, Port City FC wanted a location beside the SkyTrain in the centre of Surrey because they knew that was the way to tap into the wider Vancouver market as well as a Fraser Valley one. If that's not happening is being out in the boonies with essentially no viable public transport access really the better option than being off the Skytrain about equidistant from downtown Vancouver and Surrey? Time will tell I guess.

On Claude Robillard, do they not care about the optics of not having a single team in the province of Quebec? If the less than stellar Clarke Stadium was viewed as being worth trying despite FCE's crowds having been less than stellar even in an NASL context, what's the drawback of Claude Robillard when in the past the Impact were able to draw into low five figures there?

[Ansem]

29 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

On Claude Robillard, do they not care about the optics of not having a single team in the province of Quebec? If the less than stellar Clarke Stadium was viewed as being worth trying despite FCE's crowds having been less than stellar even in an NASL context, what's the drawback of Claude Robillard when in the past the Impact were able to draw into low five figures there?

Why are you so sure that Claude-Robillard is what's holding back the deal? The location isn't good, I would know - my Cegep was in the area. Less than ideal for so many reason for a pro club

[SpursFlu]

13 hours ago, Watchmen said:

You would 100% complain about the "skyrocketing crime rate" outside your house.

Not crime rate.. rising junkie rate

[SpursFlu]

11 hours ago, Macksam said:

Is that what happens when the Skytrain comes around? 

No you get 1 million dollar 500 Sq foot apartments stacked everywhere and 2 million dollar houses both overtime just owned by investors or I guess now, owned by the government 

Edited May 12, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Kent]

On 5/2/2022 at 3:22 PM, Kingston said:

My concern is that with crowds of about 1000 we won't have York United for the long term anyway.

If you're going to be playing to small crowds in the three big cities anyway, let the MLS teams put in their reserve sides.  The MLS teams view the reserve sides as an investment - they will fund them even if the crowd size doesn't financially justify it.  That gives you three stable CPL teams right there - almost half of what you need for a viable league.  It also means we're in practice using MLS revenue to help fund the CPL.

Then go out and establish viable CPL teams in the second tier of cities.  There are still at least ten other cities with the potential to produce the necessary sized crowds.  And that way the league doesn't drop perilously low on teams even if a couple of those markets fail in the first attempt (like Edmonton currently is).

To me this seems like a more winning strategy than what the CPL is currently pursuing.

I know some others have addressed the bold above already, but one thing that wasn't explicitly mentioned. Montreal's and Vancouver's second teams folded after 2 and 3 seasons respectively. That means every founding member CPL team has been more stable than those 2 teams were and even Atletico Ottawa is already on their 3rd season which matches VWFC2's run and surpasses Montreal's. To that point, neither of those 2 were operating during the first 3 years of the CPL. TFC 2 was the only team that may have been an option, but of course Bill Manning (TFC president, I think it was him) was talking about maybe being able to put TFC 3 in the CPL rather than TFC 2.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

The detail you are leaving out is that Vancouver wanted to sell Whitecaps 2 to a group in Calgary who would have run it as a USL affiliate that could have used different branding. The CSA blocked that from happening. A similar scenario might have been doable with FC Montreal in Quebec City? Joey Saputo was rumoured to be looking into that possibility at one point from what I remember. CanPL refused to even consider the possibility of affiliates even though that could have been used to help prop up struggling markets and give the league greater overall stability.

[narduch]

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The detail you are leaving out is that Vancouver wanted to sell Whitecaps 2 to a group in Calgary who would have run it as a USL affiliate that could have used different branding. The CSA blocked that from happening. A similar scenario might have been doable with FC Montreal in Quebec City? Joey Saputo was rumoured to be looking into that possibility at one point from what I remember. CanPL refused to even consider the possibility of affiliates even though that could have been used to help prop up struggling markets and give the league greater overall stability.

So do you think we would be better off today with 5-6 teams playing in the USL and no league of our own?

And the question about MLS affiliates in CPL has proven that the CPL was right on that front. This isn't an argument in your favour that you think it is.

Edited May 13, 2022 by narduch

[Kingston]

9 hours ago, Kent said:

I know some others have addressed the bold above already, but one thing that wasn't explicitly mentioned. Montreal's and Vancouver's second teams folded after 2 and 3 seasons respectively. 

This is true, although I also think it would be fair to ask what Vancouver and Montreal would have done if they'd had teams in the CPL instead of the shifting options that were actually available to them.  I suspect CPL-affiliated teams would still be there.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

31 minutes ago, narduch said:

So do you think we would be better off today with 5-6 teams playing in the USL and no league of our own?

Have to wonder what some people's life experiences have been on here to be so idealistic rather than pragmatic apparently well into adulthood. I would like to see CanPL averaging larger crowds than MLS and think we would be much better off if CanPL was challenging the Big 5 Euro leagues on player signings. You don't always get what you want in life though.

Meanwhile back in mundane reality I would prefer to see pro soccer actually work sustainably in Canada rather than unravelling again due to unrealistic economic models being applied in the expectation of a pot of gold at the end of an imagined rainbow that is never going to arrive. If you try sometimes on something like MLS affiliates you just might find you get what you need.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[narduch]

31 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Have to wonder what some people's life experiences have been on here to be so idealistic rather than pragmatic apparently well into adulthood. I would like to see CanPL averaging larger crowds than MLS and think we would be much better off if CanPL was challenging the Big 5 Euro leagues on player signings. You don't always get what you want in life though.

Meanwhile back in mundane reality I would prefer to see pro soccer actually work sustainably in Canada rather than unravelling again due to unrealistic economic models being applied in the expectation of a pot of gold at the end of an imagined rainbow that is never going to arrive. If you try sometimes on something like MLS affiliates you just might find you get what you need.

This is just a word salad because you know you have been proven wrong 4 years into CPL.

But keep clinging on to your affection for USSSF leagues.

At least you are consistent 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

How have I been proven wrong when FCE are drawing three digit crowds and now have to be propped up through league ownership? If all CanPL clubs were drawing like Halifax are I would have been proven wrong but that's not what happened.

Beyond that I have no special affection for USSF sanctioned leagues I just would like to see pro soccer actually work and not go through a perpetual boom and bust cycle with a soccer version of the CFL revolving around coast-to-coast air travel failing to take root time after time followed by a lull before a new group of investors can be found that have forgotten what happened the last time around.

A lot of what I have posted has revolved around setting the goals of a domestic league a bit lower with regional bus travel so that 3000 would be enough to avoid drowning in red ink.

[Macksam]

23 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

No you get 1 million dollar 500 Sq foot apartments stacked everywhere and 2 million dollar houses both overtime just owned by investors or I guess now, owned by the government 

Sounds like what happens when a TTC stop arrives here. 

The ugly truth about society is that big government has been bought and sold by corporate interests, which do not align with what's good for the general populace. Del Duca can talk all about making houses affordable all he wants but he'll be no better than Ford. They both suck. Vote for an independent party.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Macksam

[m-g-williams]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Have to wonder what some people's life experiences have been on here to be so idealistic rather than pragmatic apparently well into adulthood. I would like to see CanPL averaging larger crowds than MLS and think we would be much better off if CanPL was challenging the Big 5 Euro leagues on player signings. You don't always get what you want in life though.

Meanwhile back in mundane reality I would prefer to see pro soccer actually work sustainably in Canada rather than unravelling again due to unrealistic economic models being applied in the expectation of a pot of gold at the end of an imagined rainbow that is never going to arrive. If you try sometimes on something like MLS affiliates you just might find you get what you need.

Another needlessly condescending non-response to a very simple, yes-or-no question. For someone who's obviously so passionate about the game, I really wish you could be more constructive. 

If you don't like the current operating model for the CPL, that's fine - proposing alternatives/adjustments like you sometimes do can be useful. But continually harping on the same old "we should have gone with MLS affiliates, and I'm such a victim because no one listens to me" sob story doesn't contribute in any meaningful way to improving the current situation - which, apart from FCE and arguably York, is fairly decent, all things considered. 

The decision to not go the USSF route (MLS affiliates, NASL 2.0 Cdn division, etc.) was made years ago - and it's done. And unless you've got a flux capacitor and 1.21 gigawatts of electricity lying around, no amount of whining is going to change what happened to lead us to where we are now. Get over it. 

The CPL is here. The teams are here. The sponsors are here. The investments are here. More teams are in the works, new sponsors get announced every few months, and aside form the Faths, people are *still* making the decision to invest in new/upgraded facilities, training, etc. to keep growing the sport and the league. The sooner you can accept that and move on, the sooner we can actually have real conversations about how to make a good thing even better. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

4 minutes ago, m-g-williams said:

...The sooner you can accept that and move on, the sooner we can actually have real conversations about how to make a good thing even better. 

A comment that might make sense if the league was averaging 5000+. If you don't like my posts you can always put them on ignore.

[m-g-williams]

23 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

A comment that might make sense if the league was averaging 5000+. If you don't like my posts you can always put them on ignore.

I've tried. But the way you end up taking over so many different threads, it's kind of inescapable. 

As for attendance, for most teams in a new league to be drawing around 3,000 barely a month into the season and after two years of a pandemic isn't bad (especially as attendance is down in MLS, A-League Men, and plenty of other top flight leagues, too). It's not great, and we can all recognize that - hence the comment on making something good better.

If you disagree and just want to make something you see as bad turn into something good, then you can always contribute ideas constructively without bemoaning things you can't change. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

I don't agree with a lot of what you have just posted but I don't feel a need to badger you into agreeing with my opinion. Maybe you could extend me the same courtesy?

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

How have I been proven wrong when FCE are drawing three digit crowds and now have to be propped up through league ownership? If all CanPL clubs were drawing like Halifax are I would have been proven wrong but that's not what happened.

Haven't there been 40 + USL teams that have folded or dropped divisions, and doesn't Halifax have a better attendance record than the USLC has had in any given year?

Edited May 13, 2022 by Aird25

[Ansem]

51 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

A comment that might make sense if the league was averaging 5000+. If you don't like my posts you can always put them on ignore.

You could stay on topic and stop dragging USSF/USL/Affiliate in a CPL Attendance thread.

Why don't you start your own thread on this and those wishing to agree with you or debating you are free to go there. Stop derailing all those thread with your nonsense

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

21 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Haven't there been 40 + USL teams that have folded or dropped divisions, and doesn't Halifax have a better attendance record than the USLC has had in any given year?

I have no huge love of USLC but what it has going for it is that the USA is so vast in population terms compared to Canada that 40+ USL teams (I'll take your word on that) can fold but the league still continues on regardless because there are so many possible markets. The problem with trying for a USLC scale league in Canada is that you need to get much closer to all the possible markets to work at the same time to have a stable league. Given the history of the sport in Canada that's a high risk strategy. Great if it works but what if it doesn't?

Halifax is a tremendous success story but many more of those are going to be needed to have a sustainable league at that scale of operations in a Canadian only context. Meanwhile elsewhere the teams in the GTA and Edmonton have failed so hard so far that two of the largest five available markets are looking like a complete write-off. Instead of trying to emulate the CFL (if that's what they are doing, it remains unclear) if they downscaled a bit to something that instead emulates junior hockey based on regional bus travel with a lot of younger players looking for a break into the big time you could eventually aim for something like this:

West: Victoria, Greater Vancouver, Kelowna, Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatoon, Regina, Winnipeg

Central: Windsor, London, K-W, St Catherines, Hamilton, GTA, Barrie, Durham Region

East: Kingston, Ottawa, Montreal Region, Sherbrooke, Quebec, Moncton, St John's, Halifax

Edited May 13, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ansem]

Now that we know that the parrot hates the idea of MORE Canadians playing in continental football unless it's via 1 of the 3 MLS teams

-

Let's go back on topic

Edited May 13, 2022 by Ansem

[Kingston]

I think the difficulty that many of you (on one side) and Ozzie (on the other side) have is one of timing.

The group is pointing out that the CPL exists, has investors and sponsors, is playing games, and is expanding.  The group is focused on right now and the group is not wrong.

Ozzie sees a league that is not hitting the attendance targets needed for its national-level aspirations and is suggesting possible alternatives (MLS reserve sides, bus league travel, USL teams) that fit the attendance the league is actually generating.  He is implicitly following the current trajectory forward a few years and seeing failure in the current model.  He is also not wrong.

At the moment, the two sides are frustrated because one is talking about 2022 and the other is implicitly talking about, say, 2025.  So both seem to be speaking nonsense to the other.

The question is whether by, say, 2025, the teams will be drawing what they need to support a national-level league or will be choosing between scaling back or shutting down.