CPL 2022 Season Attendance

[grasshopper1917]

I mean there is always going to be a 'leafs game, Jays game, TFC game etc.... The reality is the support is just not there in York. Which really doesn't matter because they are moving to woodbine anyway are they not?

[Mikmacdo]

5 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

I mean there is always going to be a 'leafs game, Jays game, TFC game etc.... The reality is the support is just not there in York. Which really doesn't matter because they are moving to woodbine anyway are they not?

a leafs playoff game is kind of a big deal here in the gta. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Shows how closely I'm paying attention to the NHL these days if it is a playoff game.

[Macksam]

7 hours ago, danninho said:

FWIW I saw 2 people watching the Leafs game on their phone/tablet while at the game last night and overheard others talking about it.

Even though the York attendance numbers are worrying, the crowd did seem livelier. This, along with the club’s ticket promotions  and team’s early season positive results will hopefully lead to better attendance.

I was at the game as usual and the crowd is definitely getting more into it. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Found this graphic on Reddit interesting:

Mainly for the benefit of people who assume that CanPL attendance will inevitably grow to a transformational extent over the next decade because that's what they very much want to happen on an emotional level and they are unable to separate visceral emotion from what they expect will happen on a more rational level.

Ignoring the COVID years (and remember Australia had an even more hardline approach to lockdowns than Canada did) at the end there's 15 years or so of data in there with not much evidence for that unfolding in Australia although you can see a Del Piero effect with Sydney FC.

Moral of the story? What's happening now and what happened in the Fall season of 2019 on attendance after the initial novelty factor wore off might be the shape of things to come for the forseeable future with CanPL so cloth should be cut accordingly in terms of the economic model.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Bison44]

Also for the benefit of people who act like their mother is going to be around for ever because that's what they very much want to happen on an emotional level and they are unable to separate visceral emotion from what they expect will happen on a more rational level.  She isnt, everyone dies, your mom, your dad, even you.  The moral of the story, if you didnt call your mom or do something nice for her this weekend you really should.  Dont be an asshole!!  

[Macksam]

Have to disagree with Ozzie's Aussie analogy. Many different variables at play between the A league and CPL.

[nolando]

In a different vein, I was looking up Swangard Era 86ers/Caps attendance the other day and was impressed with just how consistent that was over such a decent stretch of time. 5K plus for the most part, far from the downtown core in what was, until recently, mostly an older, single-family dwelling type part of the Burnaby/Vancouver divide. A different era, to be sure, but something I bet most CPL sides will struggle to achieve on any consistent basis for at least the first few years.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

The main advantage of Swangard was probably being close to the Skytrain. Never been fully clear to me why it has never appeared to be in the running where CanPL is concerned. In a similar sort of way the availability of a suitable stadium is mentioned as the main stumbling block in Montreal but Complexe Sportif Claude-Robillard is still very much there and is not drastically far from a Metro station. Are they so obsessed with the optics of being D1 and tilting at windmills where MLS is concerned that they think they can't use stadiums the Whitecaps and Impact used in the USL because that's too minor league for them?

[Macksam]

11 hours ago, Macksam said:

Have to disagree with Ozzie's Aussie analogy. Many different variables at play between the A league and CPL.

Let me continue, the A league comparison would be better suited for MLS, a sort of warning to that league to not make the same mistakes as its Australian counterpart.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-01/hinds3a-forgotten-aussie-football-suffering-serious-hangover/9295626

Here's an article from about five years ago explaining some factors that have contributed to the decline, including over policing of the hardcore supporters, who generate the atmosphere that entices the casuals to come out which is not unlike the marketing utilized by late 2000s early 2010s TFC and MLS in general. The cracking down on said supporters is also something that has routinely been complained about by fans of MLS over the years although I am not sure if it's a current issue.

https://www.theroar.com.au/2022/02/16/fading-into-obscurity-whats-wrong-with-the-a-league-men/

This article largely says the same thing but it came out earlier this year.

If the CPL started with the same mainstream exposure and fanfare as both MLS and the A league did, the league could then look at the A league's declining attendance as something that is relevant, and even then, it should be looked at as a case study of what not to do rather then something that is to be expected when it comes to long-term interest levels. However, the CPL has not started with anywhere near the level of exposure or interest as those two leagues. The support has largely been grassroots driven and for the most, organic. There is a great argument to be made that attendances can increase in the coming years once the mainstream finally catches on. Just look at Cavalry and Pacific, both those clubs have had their season ticket bases slowly increase.   

Edited May 10, 2022 by Macksam

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Are they so obsessed with the optics of being D1 and tilting at windmills where MLS is concerned that they think they can't use stadiums the Whitecaps and Impact used in the USL because that's too minor league for them?

Marketing 101

[RS]

54 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Marketing 101

Swangard and Claude Robillard are no less professional looking than York Lions, Clarke, Starlight or Wanderers Grounds, though.

Their biggest drawbacks are their proximity to MLS clubs (which is what affects York, too).

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, RS said:

Swangard and Claude Robillard are no less professional looking than York Lions, Clarke, Starlight or Wanderers Grounds, though.

Their biggest drawbacks are their proximity to MLS clubs (which is what affects York, too).

Yeah, Ozzie is strangely off the mark here.

[RS]

43 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Yeah, Ozzie is strangely off the mark here.

I was responding to Ansem.

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, RS said:

Swangard and Claude Robillard are no less professional looking than York Lions, Clarke, Starlight or Wanderers Grounds, though.

Their biggest drawbacks are their proximity to MLS clubs (which is what affects York, too).

I think that an expanded Starlight Stadium is good for that market.

Wanderers are working towards a permanent structure on the grounds

Clarke is definitely not ideal and not suitable for CPL

Yes - being close to MLS is a challenge, hence the importance to look more professional than York Lions or Claude Robillard if there's hope to attract casuals to the levels the league is looking for.

To Parrot's comment

• Are they so obsessed with the optics of being D1 and tilting at windmills where MLS is concerned that they think they can't use stadiums the Whitecaps and Impact used in the USL because that's too minor league for them?

I think it's more about the league learning what works and what doesn't than feeling some type of way by someone who's projecting their feelings on the situation.

People keep saying that Clarke is terrible in terms of attraction and experience, same about York (when I bring someone who's a casual who are used to BMO field, the difference hits them instantly which have an instant impact on their expectation/perception).

Why would the league keep expanding and allow more of what clearly doesn't work?

That's all I'm saying

 

 

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, RS said:

I was responding to Ansem.

I know but it was Ozzie who implied the CPL won't use those stadiums because of optics, which seems odd considering the use of York Lions Stadium like you pointed out.

[Bison44]

This is the odd thing he says that sticks out to you??  

 

[Stanley]

13 hours ago, nolando said:

In a different vein, I was looking up Swangard Era 86ers/Caps attendance the other day and was impressed with just how consistent that was over such a decent stretch of time. 5K plus for the most part

Even on days where they came up against BC Lions, Vancouver Canadians or even Vancouver Canucks playoff games.

[RS]

1 hour ago, Macksam said:

I know but it was Ozzie who implied the CPL won't use those stadiums because of optics, which seems odd considering the use of York Lions Stadium like you pointed out.

They both kinda said that, but from vastly different perspectives.

[Macksam]

52 minutes ago, RS said:

They both kinda said that, but from vastly different perspectives.

This is true.

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

I think that an expanded Starlight Stadium is good for that market.

Wanderers are working towards a permanent structure on the grounds

Clarke is definitely not ideal and not suitable for CPL

I really think people need to stop blaming Clarke stadium. In terms of CPL stadiums I think it's actually in one of the better locations. I mean it seems to work for the Eskimos.

I've watched as many games there as I have at Starlight/Westhills/Bear Mountain and it's certainly easier to get to from downtown. Something else is wrong 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Aird25

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

 Are they so obsessed with the optics of being D1 and tilting at windmills where MLS is concerned that they think they can't use stadiums the Whitecaps and Impact used in the USL because that's too minor league for them?

Swangard has a large main stand that would be the envy of most CPL clubs and has the size a main stand would need in CPL. 

Then, it has a track, and nothing more in terms of seating. And there is no will to change that, they are locked into 1970s mode (I ran BC track meets there, and at Empire).

The track, oddly enough, is something Caps fans forgave for years and was not a major impediment to attendance in the USL days. The main stand actually made noise at times.

The Southside was really a rather rickety stand or set of them which hosted a rather tremendous supporter group. But the quality was in the people there, if I may say so, and the energy, and I was not a regular, I only went back summers. It had the advantage of being right behind goal, inside the track and within metres of the end line. If they'd put a better quality structure back there, say for 500-700, it'd work. And you could do it without affecting the track.

But you still have the entire east side of the field with no stands. For the World Youth Cup they added them. They had in certain periods a low set, maybe a couple of rows. City of Burnaby had always refused to allow a permanent stand, even behind the track. The reasons are mostly poor --we even hear they did not want to block the view of the trees--but that is their sad paradigm. There is space for one, it'd just take over a relatively small parking area, that is all. But there is no will, so it would look like the York stadium in a broadcast, you'd see the action great ibut there'd still be a large swath without fans. And without an east stand you'd "cap out" at 5000 + Southside and I think, frankly, that CPL needs higher capacity to absorb potential growth.

[SthMelbRed]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Swangard has a large main stand that would be the envy of most CPL clubs and has the size a main stand would need in CPL. 

Then, it has a track, and nothing more in terms of seating. And there is no will to change that, they are locked into 1970s mode (I ran BC track meets there, and at Empire).

The track, oddly enough, is something Caps fans forgave for years and was not a major impediment to attendance in the USL days. The main stand actually made noise at times.

The Southside was really a rather rickety stand or set of them which hosted a rather tremendous supporter group. But the quality was in the people there, if I may say so, and the energy, and I was not a regular, I only went back summers. It had the advantage of being right behind goal, inside the track and within metres of the end line. If they'd put a better quality structure back there, say for 500-700, it'd work. And you could do it without affecting the track.

But you still have the entire east side of the field with no stands. For the World Youth Cup they added them. They had in certain periods a low set, maybe a couple of rows. City of Burnaby had always refused to allow a permanent stand, even behind the track. The reasons are mostly poor --we even hear they did not want to block the view of the trees--but that is their sad paradigm. There is space for one, it'd just take over a relatively small parking area, that is all. But there is no will, so it would look like the York stadium in a broadcast, you'd see the action great ibut there'd still be a large swath without fans. And without an east stand you'd "cap out" at 5000 + Southside and I think, frankly, that CPL needs higher capacity to absorb potential growth.

Swangard had temporary bleachers on the east side for at least the last 10 years of the 'Caps time there. Prior to that, you could just buy a GA ticket and sit on the small, grass hill on that side. In fact, that's where I sat for nearly every game during the '86ers heyday. The north side was usually set up with hospitality tents. 

[Kingston]

15 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

And without an east stand you'd "cap out" at 5000 + Southside and I think, frankly, that CPL needs higher capacity to absorb potential growth.

Although a 5000 seat stadium that a team could sell out now, with potential to expand in the future, would be perfect.  Assuming they could sell it out now.

[SpursFlu]

I actually thought Clark Stadium looked decent the other day. It doesn't look like a yard sale anymore with stands scattered around everywhere 

People are so full of it. You know why people go to games.. because they want to. You know why they don't go to games.. because they don't want to

I want a skytrain to stop at my house and the stadium to be up the street and a street lined with pubs to be across the street from the stadium and the stadium to be down town and I want someone to wipe my ass and craft beer and free wifi and a pulled pork sandwich made from free range grass fed pigs and my teams social media needs to have the funniest memes

Go watch a friggin football game and shut the hell up