CPL 2022 Season Attendance

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

The obvious soccer specific alternative in a Winnipeg context would have been the Ralph Cantafio Soccer Complex named after the guy who was the driving force behind the Fury back in the day, and Terry Fox Park is still there in Ottawa where the Intrepid played. This is Canada's D1 yadda yadda yadda but perhaps worth bearing in mind that the best crowds in the league are showing up for the team that's playing in a public park with a set of temporary stainless steel bleachers.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ansem]

21 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^what does MLS have to do with there being a youth soccer group sale in Victoria and where did I say anything negative about Pacific FC doing that, the size of the crowd that showed up or even implied that something was shocking in some way? Absolutely bizarre post.

Bizarre? I actually said the same thing Wheeler said after the Valour-Whitecaps game when he criticized the poor attendance. He pointed out the same thing (lack of community engagement and reaching out to youth clubs) as a lesson for both CPL and MLS clubs.

He's right

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

If you want to discuss Whitecaps attendance the appropriate thread for doing so is here:

https://www.canadiansoccernews.com/forums/topic/78173-vancouver-whitecaps-2022-season-thread/page/7/#comments

 

[JamboAl]

39 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The obvious soccer specific alternative in a Winnipeg context would have been the Ralph Cantafio Soccer Complex named after the guy who was the driving force behind the Fury back in the day, and Terry Fox Park is still there in Ottawa where the Intrepid played. This is Canada's D1 yadda yadda yadda but perhaps worth bearing in mind that the best crowds in the league are showing up for the team that's playing in a public park with a set of temporary stainless steel bleachers.

Terry Fox is in a way worse location than TD Place with very poor public transit.  It would cost a lot of money to retrofit it and is owned by the City of Ottawa who would have to put the money to fix it; local taxpayers would not go for it when there is a perfectly suitable facility.  And one thing TD Place has that Terry Fox doesn't: restaurants, bars and shops nearby; TD Place is a destination, Terry Fox is a wasteland.

EDIT: to address the public park situation in Halifax assuming that's what you're referring to...I've been there quite a few times to watch a match. It is what Terry Fox would be if it were located smack in the downtown core.  HFX Wanderers is in the perfect location.  Put it out in the burbs and it doesn't draw nearly as well.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Think the alternative mentioned in Winnipeg was more likely to be viable than the other possibilities in Ottawa such as Carleton's stadium (if unmarked fieldturf was installed) would have been, but not sold on the three CFL stadia being the answer long term from what we have seen so far. It's too bad baseball can't be elbowed out of the stadium where the Lynx played opposite the Via Rail station.

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

I will only speak for Ottawa but to build a soccer only stadium in the heart of the city is near impossible without it costing tens of millions; there is little or no spare land available.  TD Place is perfectly suitable and central albeit it is on the large side.  Sure you can build a soccer specific stadium outside of the core…but I believe it would draw half of what Atletico is getting now.  I wouldn’t be getting season tickets.

There is no getting around the fact that TD Place is too big.  That said, I've been there for Fury-TFC games with about 7000 fans.  I was pleasantly surprised how good the fan experience was with everyone sitting in one part of the stadium.  It is far easier to create a more intimate feeling in TD Place than in, say, Skydome* which feels empty even with 20 000 fans.  TD Place should be workable for the CPL even if that isn't necessarily true for other CFL-size stadia.

*  I realize it has long since had another name but to me it will always be Skydome.

[PegCityCam]

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Think the alternative mentioned in Winnipeg was more likely to be viable than the other possibilities in Ottawa such as Carleton's stadium (if unmarked fieldturf was installed) would have been, but not sold on the three CFL stadia being the answer long term from what we have seen so far. It's too bad baseball can't be elbowed out of the stadium where the Lynx played opposite the Via Rail station.

The Ralph Cantafio would make sense in that it's a large, open area, with some fields, and a makeshift stand. Other than that it's basically a non-starter.

1. No real amenities close by except for a Boston Pizza which will take you a good 25 min to hike. Or the Fionn's which would be a 35 min walk...not that we all have to walk lol.

2. It's right next to a well established upper/middle class neighbourhood which are known to kick up quite the fuss when it comes to introducing anything entertainment related in the area (see first point).

3. Parking, if you're into that, would be a nightmare as Waverly Ave is the only way in or out of the lot, let alone the entire area.

4. Pretty sure this will most likely be the home of the Prairie L1 team if/when that happens.

5. Earlier points made in previous post.

Personally would love to see this happen as it would be a 16 min bike for me and it would just be so cool to have a pro level soccer specific stadium in my city. A place to actually call home for our boys. Also, CPL attendance👍

Edited May 16, 2022 by PegCityCam
It's spelled Fionn's lol

[youllneverwalkalone]

One thing I find frustrating is that baseball has great locations in Vancouver, Edmonton, Winnipeg, London, etc. for the exact types of stadiums we need. And why? Baseball is the one sport I'm more than happy to turnover to Toronto and an American league. Go Jays!

[jonovision]

6 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

One thing I find frustrating is that baseball has great locations in Vancouver, Edmonton, Winnipeg, London, etc. for the exact types of stadiums we need. And why? Baseball is the one sport I'm more than happy to turnover to Toronto and an American league. Go Jays!

In general, a stadium is a terrible use of valuable, centrally located land. A baseball stadium that has 50-100 home dates a year is a better fit than a soccer stadium that only sees 20 home dates.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Just now, jonovision said:

In general, a stadium is a terrible use of valuable, centrally located land. A baseball stadium that has 50-100 home dates a year is a better fit than a soccer stadium that only sees 20 home dates.

Ok, that is a very logical response. BUT... Most of these stadiums do not get that many dates -many of these teams are defunct or struggling to find a league to play in. And soccer can easily share with rugby, and do concerts and other stuff that would just be weird in a baseball stadium. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

In London, Intercounty Baseball is probably comparable to L1O in interest level (been a while since I walked down the path on the Thames and peered in when they were playing) with only around 18 home dates given it is semi-pro at best largely played on weekends. Despite small crowds and relatively few games they still have their 5000 seat playpen on prime real estate reserved for that, while soccer only got off the ground back in the day because various ethnic social clubs built their own fields at their own expense. It's only comparatively recently in historical terms that soccer gained full mainstream acceptance in London and started to be properly catered to in terms of field provision for youth soccer. Think a Langford style approach to having a pro soccer stadium at municipal expense is still a long way off though.

Pro level baseball teams have been tried a few times in recent decades including a Detroit Tigers AA farm team in the late 80s (OK, not so recent on that one, even made it along to one of their games was bored rigid and never been back since) but they never last long. The late Harry Gauss briefly floated the idea of London City moving to Labatt Park about 20 years back. A London Free Press columnist called Chip Martin went berserk about it conveniently ignoring that other sports including soccer had been played there in the past and definitely appeared less than pleased about stuff I was writing online on that topic at the time. Suspect the baseball crowd would fight it just as fiercely now if CanPL was trying to get in there. Doubt they would though as things stand right now. Would need a major renovation to have 6000 suitable seats in a soccer format.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[PegCityCam]

49 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

One thing I find frustrating is that baseball has great locations in Vancouver, Edmonton, Winnipeg, London, etc. for the exact types of stadiums we need. And why? Baseball is the one sport I'm more than happy to turnover to Toronto and an American league. Go Jays!

Shaw Park is ideal in size and location. This happened because we had a very wealthy businessman in the 90s who then became mayor, which then became a complete debacle. As far as I can tell there is presently no wealthy caped crusader who has a penchant for footy (Soccman?) in Winnipeg.

Point Douglas - an industrial/residential area just north of Shaw Park - was bandied around for IG Field before the U of M site was decided upon. This could still work if a real life Soccman (woman...circle) materialized out of the gumbo some day.

Razing Portage Place to the ground or build on the old Bombers stadium site near Polo Park...two other options which won't ever happen imo.

Ps Shaw Park gets 50 home dates exactly. 

[SpursFlu]

1 hour ago, jonovision said:

In general, a stadium is a terrible use of valuable, centrally located land. A baseball stadium that has 50-100 home dates a year is a better fit than a soccer stadium that only sees 20 home dates.

I personally like museums. The ones that cost 900 million

Edited May 16, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Bison44]

And the Goldeyes have historically drawn between 4 and 6k, rain or shine.  This is all just pie in the sky baloney anyway.  Like Pegcity had said several times, there is no local crusading soccer billionaire to swoop in and make all our wishes come true.  There is no historically signifigant open space downtown, close to shops for the unnamed billionaire to take advantage of.  No f#ckin MLS reserve club was looking to move in. 

What we did have 5 years ago was a Football team, who owned a new stadium who was willing to take a chance, take some losses and start a soccer team to help them recoup that investment by filling up dates in that stadium.  Perfect no, but after watching sask and Quebec flounder for 5 years trying to drum up something.....anything that would get off the ground I'm not complaining.  The Valour games I have been to had between 4 and 6+ fans on one side of the field.  Weird, sure, look funn on TV ok ok.  But the trench (thanks MrsC et al) was rocking, there was plenty of noise and the concessions were busy.  This is with at best mixed results on the field, little advertising push from the Bombers and covid mucking up the last 2 seasons. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

2 hours ago, PegCityCam said:

The Ralph Cantafio would make sense in that it's a large, open area, with some fields, and a makeshift stand. Other than that it's basically a non-starter...

Never been to Winnipeg and might be confusing it with another venue but did it not have a 10,000 capacity at one point as the soccer venue for the Pan-Am games and did the CMNT not play some full international games there around that time?

Edited May 16, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[jonovision]

5 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Never been to Winnipeg and might be confusing it with another venue but did it not have a 10,000 capacity at one point as the soccer venue for the Pan-Am games and did the CMNT not play some full international games there around that time?

There was a very temporary stand in place for the Pan Am Games and some of it was kept for another year or two, I believe. Three MNT matches were played there in 2000 (2 wins and a draw). The space has been reconfigured somewhat since then, and a facility on that scale would no longer be possible, IMO.

[PegCityCam]

11 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Never been to Winnipeg and might be confusing it with another venue but did it not have a 10,000 capacity at one point as the soccer venue for the Pan-Am games and did the CMNT not play some full international games there around that time?

Correct! Women also practiced there in 2015 for the WC. Again, it would be cool but it's just not even remotely close at this point. Like I said, it'll be a decade...but then again, it could be 9 years...

https://winnipegsun.com/news/news-news/winnipeg-to-explore-a-pan-am-games-bid

[Bison44]

That is the Cantafio park....it was also practice field for the womens WC in 2015, 2 synthetic fields, mb 2k in high school bleachers.  Pegcity broke all that down 5-6 posts back if you are actually listening to other posters.  

[Weng]

2 hours ago, PegCityCam said:

Shaw Park is ideal in size and location. This happened because we had a very wealthy businessman in the 90s who then became mayor, which then became a complete debacle. As far as I can tell there is presently no wealthy caped crusader who has a penchant for footy (Soccman?) in Winnipeg.

Point Douglas - an industrial/residential area just north of Shaw Park - was bandied around for IG Field before the U of M site was decided upon. This could still work if a real life Soccman (woman...circle) materialized out of the gumbo some day.

Razing Portage Place to the ground or build on the old Bombers stadium site near Polo Park...two other options which won't ever happen imo.

Ps Shaw Park gets 50 home dates exactly. 

I still wish IG field had been built in Point Douglas.  Would have helped revitalize that area, and done wonders for the downtown.  

[Cheeta]

2 hours ago, Weng said:

I still wish IG field had been built in Point Douglas.  Would have helped revitalize that area, and done wonders for the downtown.  

No.  Nope.  No, sir.

[Cheeta]

3 hours ago, Weng said:

I still wish IG field had been built in Point Douglas.  Would have helped revitalize that area, and done wonders for the downtown.  

Maybe the only place I can think of that might be able to support the footprint for a small venue complex (because any new build would be more than just grandstands) is the Kapyong Barracks development.  Lots of money involved there but things are probably too far along for something fresh of that scale to be included.

Polo Park is possible I guess.   Might be tight though.  And who develops it?

[Weng]

57 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

No.  Nope.  No, sir.

I don’t know.  I think if the stadium had been put there, the CN and CP railway lines moved outside the city, it could have been transformative for the area.  That and making more of the Red River accessible with parks, shops, and downtown living.  Seemed positive to me 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Weng

[PegCityCam]

53 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

Maybe the only place I can think of that might be able to support the footprint for a small venue complex (because any new build would be more than just grandstands) is the Kapyong Barracks development.  Lots of money involved there but things are probably too far along for something fresh of that scale to be included.

Polo Park is possible I guess.   Might be tight though.  And who develops it?

The Aspers? 🤣 Regardless, Dancing Gabe will be there with bells on even if he is a senior by the time anything transpires.

Kapyong is now fully planned as the first urban reserve in Canada no? Polo, Point D, Cantafio all could be done but here's the real plan (and I legit think it could work too): 

[Macksam]

On 5/13/2022 at 1:36 PM, Kingston said:

I want to respect the requests to stay on topic, so I'll be brief.

The CPL needs a minimum of, say, eight stable teams to be a viable league.

The best way to achieve this is with at least eight teams that average 5000 or more in attendance.

Another option is to include teams like TFCII that don't need attendance to survive.  Add three of those and the league only needs to find five 5000 attendance markets instead of eight to survive.  Is this good?  No.  Is it desirable?  No.  Given that we currently have only one legitimately successful market, is it something someone might suggest as an option?  Sure.  But the CPL chose not to go that route when they started up and I think it is way too early to consider changing to it now.

So many markets to get at least 5,000, Sask, Regina, KW, London, Windsor, QC. We will be fine. No need for MLS reserve sides.

On 5/14/2022 at 1:37 AM, DoyleG said:

The funny thing is that, given how much of rise their supporters get from them, MLS isn't really the savior that everyone turns it out to be. Nor is doing anything with it a long-term solution.

Vancouver is one disaster away from losing the Caps. They don't have their own stadium and therefore can really leverage any actual revenue streams. Having less than inspiring teams on the field and the shenanigans going on off it doesn't spell a lot of confidence. Hate to think what happens if GK were to kick the can not far down the road.

Montreal did a nice job pissing people off with the name change and with similar on field malaise. Add to that having an owner who has his Serie A dream and doesn't need to pay attention to the his previous "showcase adoption". The only thing they have going is their own stadium, which would be part of any deal.

As for TFC, they are becoming like their telecom owners. They find that success doesn't result in better returns. Mediocrity produces just as fine of a result if not more. If fans complain, they'll toss em a eurobone form them to bite down on.

Messi is coming to Miami now, this should drive the 2023 media deal to something higher than what the Prem gets in the US. MLS will be taking the next step in its evolution and the fans will come back in all the struggling markets. Screencap this.

You can say I'm the soccer optimist on this forum, I can see in a few years TFC drawing 40,000 spectators next to a Forge drawing 15,000 - 20,000 on the very same date. All the ships will rise with the tide eventually. Cheer up everyone.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Macksam

[narduch]

Some good attendance news.