Gold Cup 2019

[SpecialK]

16 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

Were any of the players on the 40 man list out of contract with their clubs? Herdman seemed to refer to that as 1 of the factors that influenced the 23 man squad

I know Edgar is leaving. 

[LeoH037]

3 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Also consider we have a top 4 keeper in this tournament, arguably.  1 goal conceded since Herdman took control.. yet to be tested but it is what it is.  I agree this is a weak roster defensively but it still has its stars with Borjan and Henry.  Sometimes that’s all you need just ask Forrest and De Vos! 

I'd argue Borjan is second in CONCACAF only to Navas (yes, I don't believe Ochoa is better)

Edited May 31, 2019 by LeoH037

[Norrin Radd]

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

Thanks for sharing that. I see the same thing, he's a weak passer, but perhaps I was not giving his offensive ability enough credit. Unfortunately, any game I have watched him in (probably can count on 1 hand) he has never scored or assisted, so how does he score his goals typically? 

At this stage, I don't see the same flair (maybe not the right word) that Kaye has, which is what I meant by attacking instincts. If he can put the ball in the net though, I couldn't care less. All goals count the same, no matter how you score em.

Two of his three goals at with the U-20s were from the edge of the box. Both were very nicely placed balls and he seems to generate a lot of power on the shot without hammering it. I can't really compare him to Kaye or anyone else at this point. He's just too raw.

I think most of Kaye's goals have been headers off set pieces.  Speaking of which, with potentially Kaye, Henry, Cornelius, Atiba and Cavallini all in the box together it should present a real challenge for teams trying to defend against us on set pieces.

[Pottsy3]

I've come around on the Morgan callup. Seems that our clear cut top two LB's are out due to injury, and we should have at least one natural LB in case Herdman sees the need to play both Kaye and Davies higher up (although I do think Kaye starts at LB in match 1)

[RJB]

10 hours ago, Shway said:

Honest Question:

If we don't make it to the quarter finals, does Herdman deserve the sack? 

Its obviously early talks, but now a real concern of mine, based on some of these selections. 

I think that even if we do make the quarters, Herdman better not be late for any meetings.

[Obinna]

9 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

https://canpl.ca/article/be-ready-to-play-herdman-on-depth-of-canmnt-gold-cup-squad

I feel a little better after reading this. Herdman says some players have contracts running out. Tabla's contract apparently expires in 2020, so not sure if that applies to him or not.

[deschamp86]

6 hours ago, Obinna said:

I feel a little better after reading this. Herdman says some players have contracts running out. Tabla's contract apparently expires in 2020, so not sure if that applies to him or not.

I would have thought that would make players more likely to want to go, showcase themselves, have a good tournament and secure another contract

[Shortdutchcanuck]

15 hours ago, Obinna said:

I would love to be wrong, but I don't think Okello will turn out to be the player Kaye is when it's all said and done. I haven't watched Okello recently, so take it with a grain of salt, but the handful of times I watched him he looked physically imposing, but awkward. I don't think he has the attacking instincts that Kaye does, though I think and hope Okello can become a real weapon for us as he develops, and I can see him developing more into a central defender before a Kaye type of box-to-box. Again though, haven't seen much of the kid, especially lately.

Nobody thought Kaye would be Kaye when he was Okello's age.  If I recall his Gold Cup selection was questioned by most of us when he was still playing USL at a much older age than Okello is now.

[El Hombre]

I'm fine with the roster.  Yes, James could've been added and that might make people feel a little more comfortable.  However, I think we have enough depth barring catastrophe.  It is going to be difficult to get your best 11 on at any one time as it is, but as I lay them out, there seems to be cover for everyone.  I'm not down on Morgan as much as others.  I think he is a good backup option but if Kaye isn't playing LB, there is a logjam somewhere in the front six.  Kaye's versatility will actually be really good for squad rotation:

GK    Borjan    (Crepeau)
RB    Brault-Guillard    (Godinho)
CB    Henry    (Hutchinson)
CB    Cornelius    (Miller)
LB    Kaye    (Morgan)
DM    Piette    (Johnson)
AM    Arfield    (Teibert)
AM    David    (Osorio)
RF    Hoilett    (Millar)
CF    Cavallini    (Larin)
LF    Davies   

That's my first choice lineup with who could replace them.  Pretty good coverage in each position, especially when you consider the versatility of Kaye and Hutchinson.

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, Shortdutchcanuck said:

Nobody thought Kaye would be Kaye when he was Okello's age.  If I recall his Gold Cup selection was questioned by most of us when he was still playing USL at a much older age than Okello is now.

I can't speak for others, but I definitely wasn't in that camp.

The moment I watched him with the U-23 camp in Qatar, I knew he was one to watch. At the time, I remember Shermanator and a few other posters didn't like how he lost posession, but for me you could see the talent there. Even back then, you could see how that combination of skill and athleticism would bode well for him. He was one of the few from that camp who looked like he could play at a higher level. So when he made the Gold Cup team, one of the few from the Qatar camp that did, I thought Zambrano got it right.

I am less familiar with Okello than I was with Kaye. Back then I watched Kaye prior to GC with the U-23's, but I haven't watched Okello for a while, I think it may have been with TFC 2 last season. Maybe he improved drastically and my assessment is dated.

Either way, I see the potential in Okello, I get why people are excited, but I don't think his ceiling is as high as Kaye's, now that we can all clearly see how good Kaye really is.

For all the excitement about Okello, he hasn't broken through with the first team at Toronto yet. I'm pumping the breaks until I see more from him. Hopefully the T&T friendly give us a chance to see him.

If Davies and Tabla were grade A prospects coming out of MLS academies, Okello is a grade B prospect. 

By the way, we were talking about Okello and Cameroon earlier, but I went to his wiki page and apparently he is of Ugandan descent, which kind of makes sense because I was thinking he was East African.

Can someone confirm whether he is eligible for Cameroon or Uganda (or possibly both)?

Edited May 31, 2019 by Obinna

[Guest]

I recall the Kaye selection being insanely controversial at the time. Zambrano skipped over multiple MLS players to choose him at the USL level

[CanadaFan123]

21 minutes ago, Obinna said:

If Davies and Tabla were grade A prospects coming out of MLS academies, Okello is a grade B prospect. 

I would say it’s more like A++, A and A-. 

Wolfsburg made 3 six figure bids to sign him last year - that doesn’t happen to B MLS prospects. 

And you’re right that he’s Ugandan descent I realized I was mixed up with Clément Bayiha. 

[BuzzAndSting]

20 minutes ago, canta15 said:

I recall the Kaye selection being insanely controversial at the time. Zambrano skipped over multiple MLS players to choose him at the USL level

I just went back to the 2017 thread and didn't find anything resembling this. A couple posts about him questioning his selection but nothing major. Maybe there was more outrage at his inclusion in the Curacao squad?

You can check the thread here if you want to take a look.

[Gian-Luca]

10 minutes ago, canta15 said:

I recall the Kaye selection being insanely controversial at the time. Zambrano skipped over multiple MLS players to choose him at the USL level

I'm not sure about "insanely" but yes, there was a lot of questioning of the decision at the time. To be fair, I didn't think that Kaye played all that great in the Gold Cup itself - good against Costa Rica but I recall him coming on late against Honduras and giving the ball away late that nearly led to a Honduran goal against. He showed potential was a good "pick for the future" and obviously Bob Bradley thought so as well. Okello is younger now than Kaye was even then so is probably even more of a "pick of the future".

[LeoH037]

At every age group he has played at, Okello so far has always  been a stand out and looks poised to move on to a higher level. As was mentioned before, a club like Wolfburg does not make a 3M offer for a player they deem as "B rated". The kid is really calm on the ball when navigating a crowded midfield, and looks to be extremely comfortable with both feet. It might not be the popular opinion, but I do hope Herdman gives him some minutes so that he may play against senior players (seeing as TFC are not willing to do so atm) and we might all get a better idea where he currently is at development wise.

Edited May 31, 2019 by LeoH037

[Bison44]

I remember some saying Kaye isnt even starting at USL level etc, why was he picked.  And alot of us, myself included thought he was a last minute addition and were surprised when he played against Costa RIca.  He played ok, which was a revelation that he could hang with the big boys.  But at the time I was much more excited about several other USL level guys, Masta Kacher and Didic....good thing I'm not the manager.  Which kind of makes me think we should trust the coaches who see these guys everyday, if they think Okello is deserving, so be it.  

[HochelagaFC]

Also, Herdman as seen him first hand on a couple of occasions (Toulon, u-20) so he clearly knows him well. He may be his personnal project for this Gold Cup.

[CanadaFan123]

How funny is it that an 18 year old is defending the golden boot in a continental championship. 

[Cblake]

4 hours ago, canta15 said:

I recall the Kaye selection being insanely controversial at the time. Zambrano skipped over multiple MLS players to choose him at the USL level

 

4 hours ago, canta15 said:

I recall the Kaye selection being insanely controversial at the time. Zambrano skipped over multiple MLS players to choose him at the USL level

Was Kevin Aleman not the surprise pick of 2013? I mean we are always good for at least one. 

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

For anyone in the UK, the whole tournament is being shown live on freesports. 

[Obinna]

5 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

I would say it’s more like A++, A and A-. 

Wolfsburg made 3 six figure bids to sign him last year - that doesn’t happen to B MLS prospects. 

And you’re right that he’s Ugandan descent I realized I was mixed up with Clément Bayiha. 

Tell me if you think this is fair (only players born 99/00 considered):

A+ Davies - I don't think this requires explanation.

A Tyler Adams - He was a starter for one of the better MLS teams, and played well in CCL. Has done well with the USMNT. Earned a move to RB Leipzig. Has done well with RB Leipzig. He's below Davies (obviously) but just a shade below Adams would be...

A- Tabla - Are we forgetting how lauded Tabla was after the Roma match versus the Impact? Wolfsburg almost signed Okello, but Barcelona actually did sign Tabla. Wolfsbug...Barcelona. Let that sink in. I think some of you are forgetting how we'd debate whether Tabla or Davies was better. In fact, Tabla was one of Montreal's best attackers. In 2018, he was top 5 in rankings for MLS 22 under 22 (along with Davies and Adams).  

B+ Mark McKenzie - Has played 19 times for Philadelphia, same age as Tabla/Adams and one year older than Davies/Okello. I would have to say he's above players like Okello, who haven't tasted real first team football, and also ahead of players like Andrew Carlton, who have yo-yo'd between the first and second team.   

B Okello - This is as high as I am willing to go on this kid, with all due respect to him. I think it's just inaccurate to say he is any closer to Tabla than this in terms of hot prospects. Tabla was already playing and scoring in MLS at Okello's age. Let's pump the brakes on this kid until he actually shows us something in senior football.

B Carlton - In terms of prospects, I think it's more realistic to compare Okello to someone like Carlton. Yes, Carlton has gotten first team minutes, unlike Okello, but I think Okello has physical traits that are rare in a midfielder, so I think on balance they are in the same category. 

B- Blair - Theo Blair just made his MLS debut, but he's a year older than players like Okello and Carlton. Unlike Okello, hasn't had a Bundesliga club trying to sign him (as far as I know).

C- Shaffleburg - TFC thought enough of him to play him in the CCL, due to their obsession with a wide formation (even though they don't have the players for it). I am very comfortable with saying that if Shaffleburg is a C-, then Okello should be a B

...................................................

Anyways, obviously I can't touch on every player. Some of these I have seen play more than others. And to be completely honest I haven't even seen Blair (just heard opinions on him in a podcast). Most importantly, this is just my opinion and while I do feel strongly about it, I also tried to be as fair and unbiased as possible. 

So what do you think? Off the mark? I know it's getting a little off topic now, especially bringing in American examples, but I did want to beat the Okello vs Tabla horse one last time

 

 

Edited May 31, 2019 by Obinna

[spitfire]

33 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Tell me if you think this is fair (only players born 99/00 considered):

A+ Davies - I don't think this requires explanation.

A Tyler Adams - He was a starter for one of the better MLS teams, and played well in CCL. Has done well with the USMNT. Earned a move to RB Leipzig. Has done well with RB Leipzig. He's below Davies (obviously) but just a shade below Adams would be...

A- Tabla - Are we forgetting how lauded Tabla was after the Roma match versus the Impact? Wolfsburg almost signed Okello, but Barcelona actually did sign Tabla. Wolfsbug...Barcelona. Let that sink in. I think some of you are forgetting how we'd debate whether Tabla or Davies was better. In fact, Tabla was one of Montreal's best attackers. In 2018, he was top 5 in rankings for MLS 22 under 22 (along with Davies and Adams).  

B+ Mark McKenzie - Has played 19 times for Philadelphia, same age as Tabla/Adams and one year older than Davies/Okello. I would have to say he's above players like Okello, who haven't tasted real first team football, and also ahead of players like Andrew Carlton, who have yo-yo'd between the first and second team.   

B Okello - This is as high as I am willing to go on this kid, with all due respect to him. I think it's just inaccurate to say he is any closer to Tabla than this in terms of hot prospects. Tabla was already playing and scoring in MLS at Okello's age. Let's pump the brakes on this kid until he actually shows us something in senior football.

B Carlton - In terms of prospects, I think it's more realistic to compare Okello to someone like Carlton. Yes, Carlton has gotten first team minutes, unlike Okello, but I think Okello has physical traits that are rare in a midfielder, so I think on balance they are in the same category. 

B- Blair - Theo Blair just made his MLS debut, but he's a year older than players like Okello and Carlton. Unlike Okello, hasn't had a Bundesliga club trying to sign him (as far as I know).

C- Shaffleburg - TFC thought enough of him to play him in the CCL, due to their obsession with a wide formation (even though they don't have the players for it). I am very comfortable with saying that if Shaffleburg is a C-, then Okello should be a B

...................................................

Anyways, obviously I can't touch on every player. Some of these I have seen play more than others. And to be completely honest I haven't even seen Blair (just heard opinions on him in a podcast). Most importantly, this is just my opinion and while I do feel strongly about it, I also tried to be as fair and unbiased as possible. 

So what do you think? Off the mark? I know it's getting a little off topic now, especially bringing in American examples, but I did want to beat the Okello vs Tabla horse one last time

 

 

Millar is a 99...

[Fullback]

58 minutes ago, Cblake said:

 

Was Kevin Aleman not the surprise pick of 2013? I mean we are always good for at least one. 

Pretty sure that people were absolutely screaming for Aleman to be included and to be played so he could be cap-tied. Ended up being kind of irrelevant 

[CanadaFan123]

@Obinna I think we have the same heirarchy just different values.  Tyler Adams is probably an A+ for me because to go straight into a top bundesliga team is huge.  

The letter really signifies potential in my mind and I dont know how Okello is lower than an A-.  Theo Bair id also have as a C but I haven’t seen him lately. 

I know he’s a 98 but Liam Fraser is a guy with B+ potential in my mind just as a comparative.  

Everything can change weekly of course lol.  

[Obinna]

56 minutes ago, spitfire said:

Millar is a 99...

I debated throwing him on this, but I decided to keep it to players who graduated to the MLS first team/spent significant time with the second team. Had I included Millar and Timothy Weah, players who were associated with TFC and NYRB respectively, I would probably consider both to be "A-" level, same category as Tabla.

 I am sure most Americans would overvalue Weah and Adams and put them in the "Davies" category, while probably undervaluing players like Millar and David. I hope both of them have a good summer at the GC and show American fans they have been sleeping on them.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Obinna