Herdman new head coach

[Stoppage Time]

15 minutes ago, canuckgbp said:

Something I can’t shake, is that I worry Herdman is going to ride these older players until they themselves hang them up. 
 

Fall friendlies up in the air. Copa America qualifying is through the next Nations League, which for us start this Sept and Oct I believe. 
 

Assuming we reach the later stages, that would be in March 2024. 
 

The problem with Nations league is that have seemingly replaced international friendlies? So we never really have a good opportunity to test out newer blood. 

Normally I would trust Herdman, but some of these GC selections have been somewhat puzzling. Especially the in game subs and timing. 

We want our strongest teams at these tournaments, but we also have to have an eye to 2026. 
 

Some current key pieces in 2026 

Borjan (38)

Vitoria (39)

Osorio (35)

Hoilett (36)

 

Assume we secure a Copa spot, that’s June 2024. I just don’t see a graceful way for Herdman to move on from these players. 
 

I’m waiting for that restart, where old brotherhood is fine but we need to be pragmatic. We have serious questions ahead, not only in terms of the x11, but also depth (as we are finding out in this GC)

 

Some of these “A” players aren’t covering themselves in glory this GC, including bf Vitoria, Miller, Osorio, and to a lesser extent Borjan. 
 

If this core stays until Copa 2024, is the next 2 years enough time to get ready for 2026? Seems like we have no choice. 
 

I think what is bothering me is the you have to play your best at all these tournaments. I agree, but what is our best? Think that’s why I am so disappointed in this GC so far, it’s the vets laying an egg.
 

Sorry for the rant. 

This is a tough situation. Certainly those four players will struggle to compete at those ages in 2026. Do we have enough time to integrate suitable replacements? Are there replacements waiting in the wings at all positions let alone those ones?

 

This is where the absence of notable young dual-nationals (i.e. Tomori) has really hurt us in several positions, and out recent poor form is not an attractions for them. In addition, the need for U - 17, 19, 21, 23 development is really notable now as the young guys have no way to show themselves internationally and thus no way to attract club offers. The pipeline is limited in terms of top talent, as the five new caps at the GC demonstrate.

The squad at the GC strongly reminds me of the pre Davies, David, era where we could get to a certain place in a match and fall short at crucial times (like wingers repeatedly breaking into space  and then repeatedly crossing the ball into the stands, into the side netting, and into the opposition defender's feet. You just know that the chance of a breakthrough is so limited. It is very disheartening.

At the same time, a new guy like Kone gives hope but there are not enough of them. In this sense, and a bit off topic, the CSB deal (Seen as a CMNT funding issue) that pays for the CPL is actually very crucial if the goal of the CPL is, in part, to find and develop YOUNG Canadians to be sold overseas to better clubs so they can, perhaps, efficiently and effectively develop one day for the CMNT. CPL is presently good if there is an 18 or 19 year old phenom who can play, say, in the GC, but the standard in CPL is presently too low for the CMNT to consider as a source of players.

I better stop before I begin to ramble. We better win decisively against Cuba and players should be played in their best position (i.e. Bombito at the back, and maybe two wingers, Shaffelberg and Liam M on at the same time to spread the field on both sides). And, I must wonder why Loturi has not yet earned one minute (maybe the question gives the answer) and I must say again that Choiniere HAD to be picked for this roster - what an oversight!

[Stoppage Time]

22 minutes ago, canuckgbp said:

True. But then I see Wotherspoon getting the call (and minutes last night) and it just seems odd. Wouldn’t putting Nelson make more sense?

The World Cup roster had their moment and I think we just have to move on. 
 

Nelson needs to play before Osorio perhaps as Osorio looks tired and worn out right now. He needs maintenance.

[mpg_29]

I mean if there are older players on the brink of retiring in the next few years then what Herdman is doing is somewhat valid. 

He has to see what other players are like.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

I know player value can be a very hit and miss metric but it does take into account things like the level the player is playing at  (exposure) and things like age.  

That all said, this Gold Cup squad is valued at about half of what Jonathan David alone is.

That says me: we need depth, and there have been some very mixed attempts to develop that this tournament. Ahmed has been given an opportunity in a good position.  Millar blew hot and cold with his chances.  Same with a few others.  Bombito and McGraw given less straight forward opportunities. Kennedy seemingly binned after a tough performance in a tough situation last tournament. 

I like Herdman's choice of formation but 352 does require some smart ( or at least experienced in the system) defenders, with over average pace on the outside. We haven't seen that ...yet. 

The reality is we will probably need to hope and pray Herdman gets more mature and tactically savvy along with a decent group of our players.

 

[Gian-Luca]

56 minutes ago, canuckgbp said:

Something I can’t shake, is that I worry Herdman is going to ride these older players until they themselves hang them up. 
 

Fall friendlies up in the air. Copa America qualifying is through the next Nations League, which for us start this Sept and Oct I believe. 
 

Assuming we reach the later stages, that would be in March 2024. 
 

The problem with Nations league is that have seemingly replaced international friendlies? So we never really have a good opportunity to test out newer blood. 

Normally I would trust Herdman, but some of these GC selections have been somewhat puzzling. Especially the in game subs and timing. 

We want our strongest teams at these tournaments, but we also have to have an eye to 2026. 
 

Some current key pieces in 2026 

Borjan (38)

Vitoria (39)

Osorio (35)

Hoilett (36)

 

Assume we secure a Copa spot, that’s June 2024. I just don’t see a graceful way for Herdman to move on from these players. 
 

I’m waiting for that restart, where old brotherhood is fine but we need to be pragmatic. We have serious questions ahead, not only in terms of the x11, but also depth (as we are finding out in this GC)

 

Some of these “A” players aren’t covering themselves in glory this GC, including bf Vitoria, Miller, Osorio, and to a lesser extent Borjan. 
 

If this core stays until Copa 2024, is the next 2 years enough time to get ready for 2026? Seems like we have no choice. 
 

I think what is bothering me is the you have to play your best at all these tournaments. I agree, but what is our best? Think that’s why I am so disappointed in this GC so far, it’s the vets laying an egg.
 

Sorry for the rant. 

FYI, Osorio will actually turn 34 just as the 2026 World Cup begins - he was born in June 1992.

[Kadenge]

In the past JH has been a quick learner. After the loss to Haiti  he progressed to making tactical changes in game and then went with a 4-2-2-2 box mid in that big 2-0 win over the USA at BMO. Apparently listened to the players and went attack in the return away game and got smacked. Came back strong vs Suriname & Haiti in WCQ and then stymied other teams in the Octo with constant tactical adjustments that kept the opposition guessing. That started to unravel or I should say stagnate after the Belgium game, when Herdman went with 2 CMs vs Croatia and refused to adjust in game until it was too late. The team underperformed in the 2 NL finals. If not for moments of brilliance from David & Davies, the outcome vs Panama could have been very different. Then the USA game. No adjustments or subs until around or past the 60 min. Now 2 poor games in GC. Has JH regressed? This all with 2 new Brit coaches. 

[toontownman]

1 hour ago, Kadenge said:

In the past JH has been a quick learner. After the loss to Haiti  he progressed to making tactical changes in game and then went with a 4-2-2-2 box mid in that big 2-0 win over the USA at BMO. Apparently listened to the players and went attack in the return away game and got smacked. Came back strong vs Suriname & Haiti in WCQ and then stymied other teams in the Octo with constant tactical adjustments that kept the opposition guessing. That started to unravel or I should say stagnate after the Belgium game, when Herdman went with 2 CMs vs Croatia and refused to adjust in game until it was too late. The team underperformed in the 2 NL finals. If not for moments of brilliance from David & Davies, the outcome vs Panama could have been very different. Then the USA game. No adjustments or subs until around or past the 60 min. Now 2 poor games in GC. Has JH regressed? This all with 2 new Brit coaches. 

To be fair Olivieri was involved back then. No surprise the team has fallen since the Master has left the building.

[kacbru]

6 hours ago, MrR said:

How did we get to this point?

It has always been at this point.

[MrR]

1 hour ago, kacbru said:

It has always been at this point.

Have you ever heard a CSA Secretary General utter the word "bankruptcy" in a public forum before last week?

Have you ever heard reports in June that is unlikely the CMNT will be playing any matches in the upcoming windows? This, in spite of a $10-million payday from FIFA.

Don't you find it strange that Earl Cochrane and Nick Bontis both quietly "resigned" and rode off into the sunset in quick succession, while John Herdman wants to stick around?

All this at a time when we are blessed with a golden generation of talent.

No, I think we find ourselves at a low point that we haven't seen before. What a shame!

[king1010]

1 hour ago, MrR said:

Have you ever heard a CSA Secretary General utter the word "bankruptcy" in a public forum before last week?

Have you ever heard reports in June that is unlikely the CMNT will be playing any matches in the upcoming windows? This, in spite of a $10-million payday from FIFA.

Don't you find it strange that Earl Cochrane and Nick Bontis both quietly "resigned" and rode off into the sunset in quick succession, while John Herdman wants to stick around?

All this at a time when we are blessed with a golden generation of talent.

No, I think we find ourselves at a low point that we haven't seen before. What a shame!

No to the first 

Yes to the second

were you around for the “sack the csa era” ? 

Edited July 2, 2023 by king1010

[Ansem]

[MrR]

39 minutes ago, king1010 said:

were you around for the “sack the csa era” ? 

No. I only go as far back as the "heritage committee meetings era."

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, Kadenge said:

In the past JH has been a quick learner. After the loss to Haiti  he progressed to making tactical changes in game and then went with a 4-2-2-2 box mid in that big 2-0 win over the USA at BMO. Apparently listened to the players and went attack in the return away game and got smacked. Came back strong vs Suriname & Haiti in WCQ and then stymied other teams in the Octo with constant tactical adjustments that kept the opposition guessing. That started to unravel or I should say stagnate after the Belgium game, when Herdman went with 2 CMs vs Croatia and refused to adjust in game until it was too late. The team underperformed in the 2 NL finals. If not for moments of brilliance from David & Davies, the outcome vs Panama could have been very different. Then the USA game. No adjustments or subs until around or past the 60 min. Now 2 poor games in GC. Has JH regressed? This all with 2 new Brit coaches. 

The surprise is all that tactical and coaching acumem from the English additions should be invaluable. I'm joking of course, can't think of a great English manager of this century. Scots, Welsh even, but not English. No offence to the Warnock and Allardyce fans here.

Herdman is part of our programme for other virtues. I personally agree that he should not be replaced now as we probably cannot get anyone better and he gives us other positives, mostly being able to "handle" the CSA, which a good tactician on the training ground might not be anywhere close to. We are stuck with Herdman, but it seems he is not too concerned about bettering things. Even in qualifying, as you have mentioned, we had bad starts, then we began to start better; we were weak in the air defending, and we tightened it up. We did not ajust to tactical shifts and then we did better, like the way we defended comfortably vs. Mexico and the US a goal up. Herdman, otherwise, has major foibles--stubborn midgame, biased towards certain mediocre players, can't seem to focus on results--and we may end up sorely disappointed we kept him in 2026. We might be saying we should have started a new project in time for it to make a difference. 

 

[Kent]

3 hours ago, MrR said:

No. I only go as far back as the "heritage committee meetings era."

So you have been following the team for a few months and think you have any idea what the lowest point in history is? You are correct that this is probably the lowest point since the heritage committee meetings, but it sure isn't the worst it's ever been.

[Aird25]

He’s somehow relying too heavily on the old guard while refusing to play the obvious replacements in natural positions as well. It’s baffling that St Claire, Sirois, Choiniere, Zator, Loturi etc can’t get a sniff while players I’ve hardly heard of are being squeezed into positions they’ve never played 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Aird25

[Bison44]

7 hours ago, MrR said:

No, I think we find ourselves at a low point that we haven't seen before. What a shame!

Did you sneak out into the garage to cry so your wife and children wouldnt see that a loss hurt you that much?  Believe me, we are no where near a low point we havnt seen before.  This seems like about every GC I have ever followed, confusion, dissapointment, mb we are through to the next round, maybe not, then we get stomped or possible win a game and then get concacafed.  Most of us are very used to this.  

[MrR]

2 hours ago, Kent said:

You are correct that this is probably the lowest point since the heritage committee meetings, but it sure isn't the worst it's ever been.

We just had the House of Commons inquiring into the financial practices of the CSA, and now, with less than 3 years to go before we co-host the FIFA World Cup Final, Jason deVos goes on CBC and publicly discloses that the CSA finds itself in a challenging financial position. And you're telling me that this is not the lowest point its ever been?

Edited July 3, 2023 by MrR

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, MrR said:

...And you're telling me that this is not the lowest point its ever been?

Not even close. Trust me on that. SNAFU is very much applicable where the CSA is concerned. The difference is that in the past politicians in Ottawa were not paying any attention so the CSA could get away with doing things like playing a game against Libya when Gaddafi was still in control to raise funds.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[king1010]

4 hours ago, MrR said:

We just had the House of Commons inquiring into the financial practices of the CSA, and now, with less than 3 years to go before we co-host the FIFA World Cup Final, Jason deVos goes on CBC and publicly discloses that the CSA finds itself in a challenging financial position. And you're telling me that this is not the lowest point its ever been?

Yes we’re telling you that. you must be new here. 
 

 

[dyslexic nam]

https://13thmansports.ca/2023/07/02/the-uncomfortable-john-herdman-problem/?fbclid=IwAR1TLAlPAy7u8jD2Ym6vF7Q3iLktEPuIrQuwsI_Op-BmYPWSw4EBrnOmNmo_aem_AeUzErvdAkMQmR637AcVI_0KPpc6gKv08H-LjBlkbuXwuFJMnaJkBoQlW128RHwZKUA
 

Seems to summarize most of the points made here in this thread (to the point where I think we may warrant a citation).  

[Ottawafan]

16 hours ago, kacbru said:

It has always been at this point.

They always find a way to reach a new low. 

[MrR]

4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Not even close. Trust me on that. SNAFU is very much applicable where the CSA is concerned. The difference is that in the past politicians in Ottawa were not paying any attention so the CSA could get away with doing things like playing a game against Libya when Gaddafi was still in control to raise funds.

Indeed! It was difficult for many Canadians to understand the CSA's rationale behind arranging the June 5th international "friendly" with Iran, in Vancouver. Was the CSA unaware of the shooting down of Ukrainian International Airlines flight 752 over Tehran in January 2020, which killed all 176 people on board? Or is the CSA just that desperate to find an opponent willing to come and play a friendly in Canada?

What I am really looking forward to is a possible Gold Cup match-up next week between Canada and the United States. Why can't the CSA and the USSF arrange 2 similar matches every year, say on Canada Day here and on the 4th of July there, to give our up and coming players an opportunity at some much needed international experience? I'm sure we could fill BMO field or BC Place for such a match in Canada, much like the Guatemalans did in Houston, Texas, last week.

[narduch]

Anyone calling this our lowest point has no clue about our history 

[king1010]

11 minutes ago, MrR said:

Indeed! It was difficult for many Canadians to understand the CSA's rationale behind arranging the June 5th international "friendly" with Iran, in Vancouver. Was the CSA unaware of the shooting down of Ukrainian International Airlines flight 752 over Tehran in January 2020, which killed all 176 people on board? Or is the CSA just that desperate to find an opponent willing to come and play a friendly in Canada?

What I am really looking forward to is a possible Gold Cup match-up next week between Canada and the United States. Why can't the CSA and the USSF arrange 2 similar matches every year, say on Canada Day here and on the 4th of July there, to give our up and coming players an opportunity at some much needed international experience? I'm sure we could fill BMO field or BC Place for such a match in Canada, much like the Guatemalans did in Houston, Texas, last week.

Because there needs to be a FIFA date and if you want it to be up and coming players, it won’t sell out. Nobody will come out to watch up and coming players. 
 

not to mention, the USA doesnt make money hosting canada when they can host mexico, italy, france, argentina etc. 

 

The states also probably commands a pretty decent appearance fee now if we were to host them. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by king1010

[Ottawafan]

7 minutes ago, narduch said:

Anyone calling this our lowest point has no clue about our history 

At least in the past when they buggered things up, the ramifications from the men’s side weren't too severe. They sucked.
Now that we have our golden generation and the CSA is up to its usual low standards ( mismanage funds, can’t schedule games, treat players with a lack of respect, called before Parliament etc… ) it becomes magnified.