Herdman new head coach

[king1010]

1 minute ago, Ottawafan said:

At least in the past when they buggered things up, the ramifications from the men’s side weren't too severe. They sucked.
Now that we have our golden generation and the CSA is up to its usual low standards ( mismanage funds, can’t schedule games, treat players with a lack of respect, called before Parliament etc… ) it becomes magnified. 

Its actually a good thing that it is being magnified. There is push for change, whereas in the past it would just get swept under the rug and CSA would continue on with their incompetence.  

[TOcanadafan]

During WC quals, Herdman had so much tactical flexibility, now it seems he’s sticking with a 3-5-2 so that it becomes our ‘identity’.  So if this is his plan, I don’t mind that he is being rigid at the Gold Cup because he needs to see who best fits into our ‘A’ team under this system.   But I’m baffled, like all of you, as to why he’s not tinkering with any of the vets (who other than Laryea clearly aren’t up to snuff).  On one hand he talks about having the goal to win the World Cup, while on the other he keeps playing Miller who doesn’t have the speed nor acumen to be a top CB and Vitoria who has broken down instead of integrating others in these roles who likely have more potential.  I think our performance during quals proved that locking yourself into one formation or system isn’t necessary as players can adapt… is it just to get the best out of Davies?  OK maybe, but I still think it’s on Davies not to play ‘hero ball’ and to actual stick to whatever role he’s given.  It’s as if Herdman has gone from being Carlo Ancelotti to Bob Bradley. 

[narduch]

20 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

At least in the past when they buggered things up, the ramifications from the men’s side weren't too severe. They sucked.
Now that we have our golden generation and the CSA is up to its usual low standards ( mismanage funds, can’t schedule games, treat players with a lack of respect, called before Parliament etc… ) it becomes magnified. 

I know you will disagree with this. But all signs point to the players being part of the problem by asking for too much of the World Cup money.

It would be interesting to compare what the Canadian players are getting v the other 31 World Cup nations. My guess it is one of the best.

[MrR]

41 minutes ago, king1010 said:

not to mention, the USA doesnt make money hosting canada when they can host mexico, italy, france, argentina etc. 

We will see whether you're right or not next Sunday. I pretty sure that if Herdman can manage a victory against Cuba, then TQL Stadium in Cincinnati will be a sell out for the USA vs Canada quarter-final match.

[king1010]

18 minutes ago, MrR said:

We will see whether you're right or not next Sunday. I pretty sure that if Herdman can manage a victory against Cuba, then TQL Stadium in Cincinnati will be a sell out for the USA vs Canada quarter-final match.

You and I were talking about friendlies(where the host country incurs the cost), not double header gold cup qfs(where concacaf incurs the cost). Apples to oranges. 
 

no doubting the qfs will be sold out. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by king1010

[costarg]

22 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

I mean if there are older players on the brink of retiring in the next few years then what Herdman is doing is somewhat valid. 

He has to see what other players are like.

Like Borjan and Vitoria?

[Ottawafan]

52 minutes ago, narduch said:

I know you will disagree with this. But all signs point to the players being part of the problem by asking for too much of the World Cup money.

It would be interesting to compare what the Canadian players are getting v the other 31 World Cup nations. My guess it is one of the best.

Players are the problem?  Interesting take. 
Wonder if the CSA hadn’t tried to screw them over, would they all have decided to skip the Gold Cup?  
 

[dyslexic nam]

3 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Players are the problem?  Interesting take. 
Wonder if the CSA hadn’t tried to screw them over, would they all have decided to skip the Gold Cup?  
 

You think they opted out of the GC to send a message?   That was never my take on the situation.  After the WC, regular league play, CL for some, and then a prioritized NL tournament, they simply needed a break - especially with a number of key guys angling for transfers.  I don’t think the current GC squad is a reflection of some sort of protest by our first team guys.   If it was, Vitoria and Laryea would have just crossed the picket line - and that is not my impression.  

[narduch]

4 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Players are the problem?  Interesting take. 
Wonder if the CSA hadn’t tried to screw them over, would they all have decided to skip the Gold Cup?  
 

I think there is enough blame to go around.

You are twisting my words to make it look like I'm only blaming the players 

[Ottawafan]

12 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

You think they opted out of the GC to send a message?   That was never my take on the situation.  After the WC, regular league play, CL for some, and then a prioritized NL tournament, they simply needed a break - especially with a number of key guys angling for transfers.  I don’t think the current GC squad is a reflection of some sort of protest by our first team guys.   If it was, Vitoria and Laryea would have just crossed the picket line - and that is not my impression.  

For sure they need a break. Well deserved. But the friction between the two groups, NT and the CSA… you have to wonder if some feel not as compelled to give up two or three more weeks in this situation. 

[Ottawafan]

14 minutes ago, narduch said:

I think there is enough blame to go around.

You are twisting my words to make it look like I'm only blaming the players 

I’m not putting any blame on the players.   

[narduch]

18 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

You think they opted out of the GC to send a message?   That was never my take on the situation.  After the WC, regular league play, CL for some, and then a prioritized NL tournament, they simply needed a break - especially with a number of key guys angling for transfers.  I don’t think the current GC squad is a reflection of some sort of protest by our first team guys.   If it was, Vitoria and Laryea would have just crossed the picket line - and that is not my impression.  

My own theory is that the players are divided and guys like Davies don't actually care about the pay dispute. It isn't that big a deal to him.

Most of the guys that skipped seemed to have valid reasons (working on a transfer, etc)

[TOcanadafan]

I don’t think there is my protest element at all from the absent players… it’s a ‘big picture’ thing, those not here need rest and/or to establish themselves with their clubs.

Edited July 3, 2023 by TOcanadafan

[costarg]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

I know you will disagree with this. But all signs point to the players being part of the problem by asking for too much of the World Cup money.

It would be interesting to compare what the Canadian players are getting v the other 31 World Cup nations. My guess it is one of the best.

My gut tells me the players - just like everyone else that has been following the CSA - know and have seen how poorly managed and run the CSA is.  It isn't hard to see the mismanagement of funds (and possibility of embezzlement).  I doubt they're "asking for too much", probably just trying to raise awareness and wreak havoc the only way they really can.

I can imagine our compensation for travel, hotels and meals is no where near what other countries offer, add that to the tailored suits the CSA showed up with and the players are like "WTF, here I am paying for my own burgers and flying coach while playing 3 games in 7 days risking injury and these suits walk in like they're the stars of the show."

Can't really blame them for this shit show.

[MrR]

1 hour ago, king1010 said:

You and I were talking about friendlies(where the host country incurs the cost), not double header gold cup qfs(where concacaf incurs the cost). Apples to oranges. 
 

no doubting the qfs will be sold out. 

I would have never figured there's that many Guadeloupeans in Cincinnati. Obviously, that's why you're the King.

I'll be orange.

Edited July 3, 2023 by MrR

[Kent]

11 hours ago, MrR said:

We just had the House of Commons inquiring into the financial practices of the CSA, and now, with less than 3 years to go before we co-host the FIFA World Cup Final, Jason deVos goes on CBC and publicly discloses that the CSA finds itself in a challenging financial position. And you're telling me that this is not the lowest point its ever been?

Another way to describe the current situation. We just qualified for a men's World Cup for the first time in 36 years, scored a goal at said World Cup for the first time in history, just made it to a Final with a trophy on the line for the first time in 23 years, and have drawn the first 2 games of the Gold Cup. And we have money problems.

Let's rewind to 2 games into the 2013 Gold Cup. The year previous we got eliminated from World Cup Qualifying, not even making it to the last round of qualifying for the 4th straight time, losing our final game 8-1 to Honduras which eliminated us. 2 games into the Gold Cup we lost to Martinique and Mexico and were sitting on 0 points. So far in 2013 we had played 7 games to that point and scored just 1 goal (in a 2-1 loss). We would have another 6 games in 2013 after our 2nd Gold Cup game, and get shut out in every single game. We are right in the middle of a 16 game winless streak. We drop to 122nd in FIFA rankings. We lose the brother of a national team icon to the Netherlands, don't have our own domestic league, and there is little to indicate things will get better soon. And yeah, we weren't exactly dripping with money then either.

[An Observer]

7 hours ago, costarg said:

My gut tells me the players - just like everyone else that has been following the CSA - know and have seen how poorly managed and run the CSA is.  It isn't hard to see the mismanagement of funds (and possibility of embezzlement).  I doubt they're "asking for too much", probably just trying to raise awareness and wreak havoc the only way they really can.

I can imagine our compensation for travel, hotels and meals is no where near what other countries offer, add that to the tailored suits the CSA showed up with and the players are like "WTF, here I am paying for my own burgers and flying coach while playing 3 games in 7 days risking injury and these suits walk in like they're the stars of the show."

Can't really blame them for this shit show.

Someone on here has likely followed the details closer than I have but I believe at one point the men were asking for $4m and the women wanted the equivalent amount which means $8m of the $10m would have gone to the players.  That is far greater on a % basis from what i understand than any other team in the tournament other than the US who is doing something similar but has boat loads of other revenue streams which we do not.

[Ottawafan]

7 hours ago, costarg said:

My gut tells me the players - just like everyone else that has been following the CSA - know and have seen how poorly managed and run the CSA is.  It isn't hard to see the mismanagement of funds (and possibility of embezzlement).  I doubt they're "asking for too much", probably just trying to raise awareness and wreak havoc the only way they really can.

I can imagine our compensation for travel, hotels and meals is no where near what other countries offer, add that to the tailored suits the CSA showed up with and the players are like "WTF, here I am paying for my own burgers and flying coach while playing 3 games in 7 days risking injury and these suits walk in like they're the stars of the show."

Can't really blame them for this shit show.

They are asking for what they feel is fair. It’s not their responsibility to raise funds to operate the CSA; that’s the job of the CSA. The players are the greatest asset the CSA has, the ones who can generate wins, revenues and visibility. 

Some reason you have people here who love to try and pin blame on the players even tho all evidence points to the disfunction of the CSA. 

[king1010]

52 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

They are asking for what they feel is fair. It’s not their responsibility to raise funds to operate the CSA; that’s the job of the CSA. The players are the greatest asset the CSA has, the ones who can generate wins, revenues and visibility. 

Some reason you have people here who love to try and pin blame on the players even tho all evidence points to the disfunction of the CSA. 

What they feel is fair may not be sustainable for the CSA (or any program other than USA). Even if the CSA was under better operation, their demands were so high, they likely could not have been met. 
 

Also what they(or their agents) feel is fair and what is actually fair may be two different things. Om the bright side, It sounds like deVos has been able to communicate the situation with the players better than Bontis. I’m sure the fact that he is a former canmnt player and coach helps build trust that Bontis didn’t have. 
 

The blame isn’t solely on the players, but at the same time, they aren’t blameless in the situation. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by king1010

[dyslexic nam]

57 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

They are asking for what they feel is fair. It’s not their responsibility to raise funds to operate the CSA; that’s the job of the CSA. The players are the greatest asset the CSA has, the ones who can generate wins, revenues and visibility. 

Some reason you have people here who love to try and pin blame on the players even tho all evidence points to the disfunction of the CSA. 

It is a failing strategy for a union to demand wages that aren’t viable or sustainable given the existing business model and profit margins.  That is simply ill-advised.

As much as you seem to categorize the people who disagree with you as 100% opposed to the players (and pandering for the CSA) your position seems equally as polar - you just support the other side.  Most here are actually in the middle - neither wholly in support of one side or the other in this complex situation.  But that middling position can’t entail wholehearted endorsement of the idea that the players deserve everything they are asking for just because they are the players.  

[Ottawafan]

28 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

It is a failing strategy for a union to demand wages that aren’t viable or sustainable given the existing business model and profit margins.  That is simply ill-advised.

As much as you seem to categorize the people who disagree with you as 100% opposed to the players (and pandering for the CSA) your position seems equally as polar - you just support the other side.  Most here are actually in the middle - neither wholly in support of one side or the other in this complex situation.  But that middling position can’t entail wholehearted endorsement of the idea that the players deserve everything they are asking for just because they are the players.  

1.  It’s part of negotiating.  A negotiation the players attempted to kickstart but the CSA dragged its feet on participating in. The players had to take drastic measures to get the attention of the suits. 

2.  Players have been hosed by the CSA and treated poorly since forever.  Not talking about Crooks/JDV… too early into their stewardship.  But they shouldn’t have any sympathy for the organization.  No money?  Go find a way to raise more dollars. 

3.  The players generated the money. After watching the CSA continually mismanage and fritter away finances ( hence the lack of $$$ currently ), you think they would be confident the leadership at the CSA would handle it properly?  

[king1010]

19 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

1.  It’s part of negotiating.  A negotiation the players attempted to kickstart but the CSA dragged its feet on participating in. The players had to take drastic measures to get the attention of the suits. 

2.  Players have been hosed by the CSA and treated poorly since forever.  Not talking about Crooks/JDV… too early into their stewardship.  But they shouldn’t have any sympathy for the organization.  No money?  Go find a way to raise more dollars. 

3.  The players generated the money. After watching the CSA continually mismanage and fritter away finances ( hence the lack of $$$ currently ), you think they would be confident the leadership at the CSA would handle it properly?  

I don’t understand number 2. The players are telling the CSA to go make more money than the biggest FAs in the world so their payment demands can be met? It’s not feasible, possible or reasonable. If that’s their position they can turn the Board and President over a dozen times and their original financial demands will still not be met. 

[MrR]

7 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

1.  It’s part of negotiating.  A negotiation the players attempted to kickstart but the CSA dragged its feet on participating in. The players had to take drastic measures to get the attention of the suits. 

2.  Players have been hosed by the CSA and treated poorly since forever.  Not talking about Crooks/JDV… too early into their stewardship.  But they shouldn’t have any sympathy for the organization.  No money?  Go find a way to raise more dollars. 

3.  The players generated the money. After watching the CSA continually mismanage and fritter away finances ( hence the lack of $$$ currently ), you think they would be confident the leadership at the CSA would handle it properly?  

Given the Gold Cup results thus far, the casual Canadian soccer fan has got to be wondering what has happened to the CMNT in the 7 months since the Qatar World Cup. Just over a year ago, the CSA proclaimed the CMNT to be the Kings of CONCACAF. https://canadasoccer.com/news/kings-of-concacaf/

Tomorrow, Canada is at risk of failing to get out of the Gold Cup's group of death, which is comprised of such perennial soccer powers the likes of: Guadeloupe, Guatemala and Cuba.

It is obvious to anyone that Canada, without its star players, is nothing more than a very ordinary CONCACAF team. We are blessed to currently have a crop of players that is capable of competing at the highest level. Yet the CSA's brass, in their expensive tailored-suits, is treating them like cheap-labour, while John Herdman has to publicly beg for funds on national TV. How can he possibly dream of winning the World Cup in 2026, on the shoestring budget that the CSA has set aside for Alphonso, Jonathan et al? Do any of the other World Cup contenders force their stars to fly economy?  

 

[MrR]

22 minutes ago, king1010 said:

I don’t understand number 2. The players are telling the CSA to go make more money than the biggest FAs in the world so their payment demands can be met? It’s not feasible, possible or reasonable. If that’s their position they can turn the Board and President over a dozen times and their original financial demands will still not be met. 

I haven't heard a single player say such a thing. It is the CSA who is being disrespectful by negotiating publicly. At least the players have the decency to do so in camera. I think the average Canadian union worker respects that. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by MrR

[king1010]

Just now, MrR said:

I haven't heard a single player say such a thing. It is the CSA who is being disrespectful by negotiating publicly. At least the players has the decency to do so in camera. I think the average Canadian union worker respects that. 

I quoted what Ottawafan hypothetically said the players should be saying. 
 

But they shouldn’t have any sympathy for the organization.  No money?  Go find a way to raise more dollars.