Gold Cup 2021

[Floortom]

They should have Mexico start the Ocho with -3 points and keep accumulating further deductions if this goes on.

like it or not - this will just continue and get worse unless these types of harsh penalties are enacted.

[SpursFlu]

Maybe we should implement a social credit system. So like if teams decide to kneel or if they walk out wearing certain t shirts they're awarded points. If they dont they're deducted points. If fans are respectful and behave, your team gets points. If theyre behavior is poor, they're team drops points. I think this could be a good solution. Maybe its the only way people will "learn"

Edited July 13, 2021 by SpursFlu

[Macksam]

46 minutes ago, Floortom said:

They should have Mexico start the Ocho with -3 points and keep accumulating further deductions if this goes on.

like it or not - this will just continue and get worse unless these types of harsh penalties are enacted.

Can the Mexican federation argue that these incidences occurred outside their venues and therefore should not be held responsible?

Edited July 13, 2021 by Macksam

[CanadaFan123]

2 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Can the Mexican federation argue that these incidences occurred outside their venues and therefore should not he held responsible?

They would have a strong case and for that reason I don't think they'll be punished more than having a few games with no fans. Arguably they shouldn't have even been sanctioned for the Nations League incidents. 

It would be completely unjust for them to be deducted points based off their fans saying a word. This isn't a situation of fans endangering lives. It's part of their football culture - it's not going to change.

[El Hombre]

1 hour ago, BigMo said:

Back to soccer😄 

I expect Qatar to beat Panama today. They're in good form, and have a lot of continuity over past three years. Basically the same squad that won the Asian Cup with more experience. 

I would like to see Panama destroy Qatar.  Don't know why though.  Maybe its because I don't want "guest" teams making it out of the group stage.

[Redpunkfiddle]

14 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

They would have a strong case and for that reason I don't think they'll be punished more than having a few games with no fans. Arguably they shouldn't have even been sanctioned for the Nations League incidents. 

It would be completely unjust for them to be deducted points based off their fans saying a word. This isn't a situation of fans endangering lives. It's part of their football culture - it's not going to change.

The methods in your first point can be debated.

But to your second, there is nothing intrinsic to culture about this chant. Anything can change. Whether it is 15 year old habit in Mexico, or whatever used to be said at Swangard, or stuff someone on this board heard 50 years ago in England.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Redpunkfiddle

[SpursFlu]

Isn't this kinda like holding Italy accountable for the cast of Jersey Shore?

[Floortom]

15 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

They would have a strong case and for that reason I don't think they'll be punished more than having a few games with no fans. Arguably they shouldn't have even been sanctioned for the Nations League incidents. 

It would be completely unjust for them to be deducted points based off their fans saying a word. This isn't a situation of fans endangering lives. It's part of their football culture - it's not going to change.

Firstly - It can absolutely change and will change once serous sanctions at levied.

secondly - you act like this is a thousand year old sacred tradition. It’s literally something that started like 15 years ago. It’s not that important and the fans should just drop it out of common sense and decency.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

Interesting. Is that a Spanish thing or all over Larin American? A quick Google search on my part was not that enlightening.

Next you're going to tell me that "hermoso" and "lindo" and "bello" are all secretly insulting too? 🙄

 

Irony may not be the strong suit here. In Spain if you exaggerate "guapo" you could be saying something else. And in parts of Latin America. 

The point is that barring moving Mexico City to sea level something has to be done to give their rivals an edge. This has little to do with gay rights at all, which is why I'm fine with fans ignoring the edict and doing what they feel. 

Reminds me of the zealots who signed the Southsiders statement against Waston for not wearing the gay pride armband as captain of Whitecaps. Even when he was wearing it. PC mentality at its finest, though they did retract (while forcing the player out). 

[El Diego]

2 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Irony may not be the strong suit here. In Spain if you exaggerate "guapo" you could be saying something else. And in parts of Latin America. 

The point is that barring moving Mexico City to sea level something has to be done to give their rivals an edge. This has little to do with gay rights at all, which is why I'm fine with fans ignoring the edict and doing what they feel. 

Reminds me of the zealots who signed the Southsiders statement against Waston for not wearing the gay pride armband as captain of Whitecaps. Even when he was wearing it. PC mentality at its finest, though they did retract (while forcing the player out). 

Speaking of irony...

[CanadaFan123]

10 minutes ago, Floortom said:

Firstly - It can absolutely change and will change once serous sanctions at levied.

secondly - you act like this is a thousand year old sacred tradition. It’s literally something that started like 15 years ago. It’s not that important and the fans should just drop it out of common sense and decency.

I don't disagree that it is silly and should be dropped but I have many Mexican friends and this is a part of their football culture - I'm not saying it's right but it is what it is. It didn't start just 15 years ago unless it spread like wildfire because I remember this being said from the point I started following Mexican footy in 2004.  

Based on the pushback of Mexican fans this is going to take a while. 

As pointed out, it is comical that such a hardline stance is being taken against a word that is closer to the English word "bitch" than the "f" word. Meanwhile FIFA is going to host the World Cup in an anti-gay country. 

 

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

8 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Irony may not be the strong suit here. In Spain if you exaggerate "guapo" you could be saying something else. And in parts of Latin America. 

But what is the implication here? "Guapo" implying "pretty boy / gay"?

8 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The point is that barring moving Mexico City to sea level something has to be done to give their rivals an edge. This has little to do with gay rights at all, which is why I'm fine with fans ignoring the edict and doing what they feel. 

Once again, Canada did get fined by FIFA. Although it was never confirmed by the CSA,  it was presumably for the "You fat bastard" chant.

The Mexican fans can chant "cabrón" and simply get fined for "insulting chants" like us!

Edited July 13, 2021 by Olympique_de_Marseille

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Floortom said:

They should have Mexico start the Ocho with -3 points and keep accumulating further deductions if this goes on.

like it or not - this will just continue and get worse unless these types of harsh penalties are enacted.

I suggest they should just eliminate goal kicks altogether when Mexico plays. Why be so non committal for something so dire? 

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

But what is the implication here? "Guapo" implying "pretty boy / gay"?

Once again, Canada did get fined by FIFA. Although never confirmed by the CSA it was presumably for the "You fat bastard" chant.

The Mexican fans can chant "cabrón" and simply get fined for "insulting chants" like us!

Look, the Spanish chant "cabrón" but less and less in the big stadiums. It's residual in lower tier, it has that formaldehyde charm about it. But it never was a gay reference as u know, it basically means jerk or bastard or sob. 

I've heard terrible racism in Spanish stadiums, and homophobic chants, but directed at players in those times of anything goes. I recall nazi chants too. A lot of this has been "solved" by high ticket pricing, which means not at all. Unless you think out of sight out of mind is a solution.

"You fat bastard"--at BC Place everyone knows it's just silliness, it's done as a bit of nostalgia and jovially even. Now if you argue it is terribly offensive for those people who don't know who their mothers were (not fathers!?), then BC Place should definitely be closed to fans. 

Public pressure is useful and I imagine the "puto" will eventually die out. I'll be fine with that. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Unnamed Trialist

[SpursFlu]

There are lots of people where I live with "common sense and decency". I can without a doubt say that they're the most judgemental, miserable, deplorable group of people you'll ever come across. Give me those drunk American Mexican soccer fans anyday of the week. They might make you shake your head from time to time but it's really refreshing seeing people who don't want to control others and seem to actually like themselves 

[JohnnyFranchise]

47 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

I would like to see Panama destroy Qatar.  Don't know why though.  Maybe its because I don't want "guest" teams making it out of the group stage.

💯

I always root hard for concacaf teams in the WC, I feel like watching this game will be the same for me.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

Whether you think every hurtful or offensive chant should be eliminated or where the line should be in terms of "hurtful,"  Mexico is not getting a contextually raw deal here. 

Hungary are playing their next three game behind closed doors  in part because of anti-gay banners. 

If you expand to racism which I am up for a debate as to whether that is the same or different but I see as similar. 

Lots of other places have banned people or fined clubs in the last ten years or so - some samples. 

Of the top of my head -  "our friends south of the river" - Millwall - got a fine a couple years ago for chants in one game.

Internationals:

Spain fans against Balotelli  - £16,137 fine

Croatia - good team but not the standout in their area as the Euros showed - stadiums bans after repeated infractions. 

European club: Atletico Madrid - a 3000 seat closure for incidents and a banner in one game.

Red Star Belgrade - Full stadium ban and £61,500 fine for chants during one game.

Lyon

Partisan Belgrade

etc.

etc.

 

 

Mexico have been told repeatedly in repeated games it is unacceptable.  Agree with the principle or not, it is not an inconsistent punishment with what has happened in Europe.

(I will agree that because some English players are of a higher profile that most football players, when they are the target it gets more attention but most of those incidents above where not directed at English players.)

 

Edited July 13, 2021 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[SpursFlu]

When I was watching the Euro final the super gay dude behind me was making fun of Chiellini the whole game for being "Bald & Ugly". At one point he yelled out, bald and ugly people shouldn't be allowed to play. I guess instead of laughing I should have asked him to leave. I dont speak the language but the person next to me translated that he was also sexuallly objectifying several of the players. It was very distracting when I was trying to be angry while simultaneously trying to figure out why Luke Shaw has a nice ass

Edited July 13, 2021 by SpursFlu

[BigMo]

1 hour ago, El Hombre said:

I would like to see Panama destroy Qatar.  Don't know why though.  Maybe its because I don't want "guest" teams making it out of the group stage.

Dont share the distate for their NT and its players, as many seem to. The players aren't responsible for their FA or country's politics and have some genuine talent. Also like seeing competitive inter-federation play, which is extremely rare outside of the World Cup. 

Id be very surprised if Panama beats them handily. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 hours ago, Floortom said:

They should have Mexico start the Ocho with -3 points and keep accumulating further deductions if this goes on...

Fans should be punished with games played behind closed doors not the team. Why should players miss out on a World Cup over something they had no part in?

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, BigMo said:

Dont share the distate for their NT and its players, as many seem to. The players aren't responsible for their FA or country's politics and have some genuine talent. Also like seeing competitive inter-federation play, which is extremely rare outside of the World Cup. 

Id be very surprised if Panama beats them handily. 

I accept this is a gesture to a team that gets no competitive matches in the lead up to the WC as its already qualified as host. On top of this, no Confederations Cup, normally the year before the WC, that has been cancelled as well (supposedly due to the heat in summer).

If we can prove to have 16 competitive teams in our confederation, then I am fine with not inviting any other side. The only exception I could see would be to invite Conmebol teams, in exchange for having the GC winners at Copa America. Which considering its name and spirit would be appropriate.

Edit, bit of disclosure: the Qatar coach was with Barça youth so I've followed him, and also have met other coaches from here, former pros, who went to Qatar to run the Aspire Academy. One, Santi Pou was at one time my kid's coach--he now runs the academies of FC Girona. I also know a young man working with a Spanish coach in the Qatari league, his partner is the kid of friends. There happens to be a strong connection from the early 2000s, but I really don't know Qatari players and admit to not have watched more than a few matches. 

Qatar is certainly a model in some ways, leaving their terrible human rights and worker safety record aside. They created a structure of a powerful live-in youth academy especially for African kids, from Muslim Africa. Then the league, with the stadium structure (way ahead of the fan base), then worked the best of academy players into teams. So not a bad model, only they are likely overpaying both players, coaches and anyone in the mix.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Unnamed Trialist

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Whether you think every hurtful or offensive chant should be eliminated or where the line should be in terms of "hurtful,"  Mexico is not getting a contextually raw deal here. 

Hungary are playing their next three game behind closed doors  in part because of anti-gay banners. 

If you expand to racism which I am up for a debate as to whether that is the same or different but I see as similar. 

Lots of other places have banned people or fined clubs in the last ten years or so - some samples. 

Of the top of my head -  "our friends south of the river" - Millwall - got a fine a couple years ago for chants in one game.

Internationals:

Spain fans against Balotelli  - £16,137 fine

Croatia - good team but not the standout in their area as the Euros showed - stadiums bans after repeated infractions. 

European club: Atletico Madrid - a 3000 seat closure for incidents and a banner in one game.

Red Star Belgrade - Full stadium ban and £61,500 fine for chants during one game.

Lyon

Partisan Belgrade

etc.

etc.

 

 

Mexico have been told repeatedly in repeated games it is unacceptable.  Agree with the principle or not, it is not an inconsistent punishment with what has happened in Europe.

(I will agree that because some English players are of a higher profile that most football players, when they are the target it gets more attention but most of those incidents above where not directed at English players.)

 

UEFA fined Barça because the fans had nationalist Catalan flags. A team that has always had a symbolic connection to Catalonia. Someone convinced someone in Nyon that these flags were a political statement that could not be tolerated. Now most fans drown out the Champions hymn when it is played, if you listen to starts of games at Camp Nou this is still the case. I happen to not be separatist, but banning Catalan republican flags at Camp Nou?

So if you are citing fines and sanctions in Europe as a benchmark, well I'd say: many of these people obviously have no idea what they are doing. The only time I ever wrote a letter to Nyon was when UEFA forced Barça to play a CL match in Glasgow the very day of the train bombings in Madrid. When Barça did not want to play in solidarity with Madrid, get it? These people in football offices can be lowlife to the extreme.

I personally don't get my ethical standards from football executives, and I know a few football executives or former ones. If you are committed and activist and are working for social change, these things are the least of your worries. If you have no real moral centre and you need the board of Concacaf or UEFA to give you one, then congratulations.

[BigMo]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I accept this is a gesture to a team that gets no competitive matches in the lead up to the WC as its already qualified as host. On top of this, no Confederations Cup, normally the year before the WC, that has been cancelled as well (supposedly due to the heat in summer).

If we can prove to have 16 competitive teams in our confederation, then I am fine with not inviting any other side. The only exception I could see would be to invite Conmebol teams, in exchange for having the GC winners at Copa America. Which considering its name and spirit would be appropriate.

Edit, bit of disclosure: the Qatar coach was with Barça youth so I've followed him, and also have met other coaches from here, former pros, who went to Qatar to run the Aspire Academy. One, Santi Pou was at one time my kid's coach--he now runs the academies of FC Girona. I also know a young man working with a Spanish coach in the Qatari league, his partner is the kid of friends. There happens to be a strong connection from the early 2000s, but I really don't know Qatari players and admit to not have watched more than a few matches. 

Qatar is certainly a model in some ways, leaving their terrible human rights and worker safety record aside. They created a structure of a powerful live-in youth academy especially for African kids, from Muslim Africa. Then the league, with the stadium structure (way ahead of the fan base), then worked the best of academy players into teams. So not a bad model, only they are likely overpaying both players, coaches and anyone in the mix.

Around 2016/2017, their federation made a decision to focus on Qatari nationals and children of Qatari expats for their NT. Though there are still a few naturalized players, the vast majority of team that won the Asian Cup and will play today was born in Qatar or moved there at a young age. 

As a result of this shift, they have not used Aspire as a pipeline to naturalize foreign talent as initially feared. Aspire Academy’s  top African graduates have ended up playing for their original NTs (Nigerian keeper Francis Uzuho, Nigeria’s Henry Onyekuru, Senegal’s Moussa Wague).

Majority of this Qatari team was also developed through Aspire, but none were naturalized through it (i.e. they didn’t move to Qatar for football, rather are children of foreign workers there)

Here’s a photo of a few current starters as children at the academy: 

 

Edited July 13, 2021 by BigMo

[narduch]

Qatar v Panama line ups. Match coming up at 7pm ET.

[narduch]

Also tonight's Gold Cup matches are available for free on One Soccer's youtube page.