Canadian Dual Nationals 2.0 Edition, Chase for the 5 stars

[finchster]

On 3/30/2022 at 11:55 AM, An Observer said:

Personally, I think we still do. All countries do.  Look at the US and Mexico that are constantly competing over the same dual nationals.  And Mexico pushing hard to sign up Flores who has never lived in their country and barely speaks the language.  Look at Italy at the Euros with Jorginho, Emerson and Rafael Tolói who were all born in Brazil and played on their youth national teams but ultimately were recruited by Italy (after playing in Seria A and being of Italian descent but that's the same as many of our duals).  And Laporte who played youth for France but couldnt get in their senior side and was one of the starting central backs for Spain at the Euros. 

I am not saying we should stop trying to attract players, all nations try to attract dual nationals. However, I think the days of fretting over dual nationals or waiting for players with tenuous links to Canada are over. We have two World Cups lined up- it should be enough to convince players to play. If not, I don't think Canada could ever convince them. 

[Baker582]

On 3/24/2022 at 8:42 PM, VinceA said:

You know what is funny. Ferdi is joining the worse team if he joins Turkey. They are on such a downward spiral. They look hopeless against Portugal, particularly defensively.

From what I've seen Turkey has a lot of good talent coming through, they had the youngest squad at the European Championship last year.

Anyway when it comes to Ferdi I'd be more annoyed if I was Dutch, given the guy was born & raised there and represented their youth teams for years.

 

[An Observer]

19 minutes ago, Baker582 said:

From what I've seen Turkey has a lot of good talent coming through, they had the youngest squad at the European Championship last year.

Anyway when it comes to Ferdi I'd be more annoyed if I was Dutch, given the guy was born & raised there and represented their youth teams for years.

 

They would if they thought he was good enough to play for them.  I suspect it would be like us losing raposo or Chung.  We probably aren’t happy but don’t think it’s a big deal as either are unlikely to play a significant role for us in the future 

[Kent]

21 hours ago, SpecialK said:

Busti is still very young. Bustos is still a young player and played some tough matches like vs Scotland and that famous England game even scoring the goal. Aird was amazing vs Scotland. Ballou is still young and I think he’ll light it up for Ottawa and return back to Spain. Those player did make some impact for Canadian soccer even if it was small. We need to cap tie everyone who is eligible, having depth is super key for a strong program. Plus we are going to be losing at least 4-5 key players after this World Cup. Hutch, Vitoria, Wotherspoon, maybe Borjan, maybe Hoilett. 

Please tell me the part I put in bold is hyperbole. We need to give caps to players that are good enough, and maybe to the occasional, really special, can't miss prospect. If we cap tied everyone who is eligible, that would be the sole purpose of the national team, and we would never bring out our best. Like 80% of the CPL are eligible, should we cap tie all of them? Should we cap tie every player who is playing at the youth level for a pro team anywhere in Europe? Keep in mind that cap tying now means 3 (or is it 4?) games. Davies would never get into another game if we went to the extreme.

But I'm sure you don't actually mean "everyone". But who is included in your net? Flores, Dias, Jebbison? Ferdi if we could convince him too? Vilsaint? Baldisimo? Abzi? Farsi? Chung? Zouhir? McNaughton? I don't know if all these players are duals so apologies on that, but I'm sure most are.

I think we are at the point where we have to make it mean something to get a cap and not just give out a cap because someone signed a pro contract, or has said they have interest from a national team. Hey Canada, I'm in my 40's and couldn't make my university team, but another country is talking about giving me a cap, so maybe you should give me a call!

If we are in fact going to be regular participants in World Cups going forward, then players may be more willing to wait, like how we always talk about other players saying they will probably commit, but not for another 4 or 5 more years while they wait to see if they can get into a better national side.

[Corazon]

15 hours ago, An Observer said:

They would if they thought he was good enough to play for them.  I suspect it would be like us losing raposo or Chung.  We probably aren’t happy but don’t think it’s a big deal as either are unlikely to play a significant role for us in the future 

Exactly.

We are only talking about Ferdi still on here is because he was waiting to see if he could ever breakthrough with the Netherlands.  If Turkey was his first choice, he would have been capped a few years ago.

[SpecialK]

4 minutes ago, Kent said:

Please tell me the part I put in bold is hyperbole. We need to give caps to players that are good enough, and maybe to the occasional, really special, can't miss prospect. If we cap tied everyone who is eligible, that would be the sole purpose of the national team, and we would never bring out our best. Like 80% of the CPL are eligible, should we cap tie all of them? Should we cap tie every player who is playing at the youth level for a pro team anywhere in Europe? Keep in mind that cap tying now means 3 (or is it 4?) games. Davies would never get into another game if we went to the extreme.

But I'm sure you don't actually mean "everyone". But who is included in your net? Flores, Dias, Jebbison? Ferdi if we could convince him too? Vilsaint? Baldisimo? Abzi? Farsi? Chung? Zouhir? McNaughton? I don't know if all these players are duals so apologies on that, but I'm sure most are.

I think we are at the point where we have to make it mean something to get a cap and not just give out a cap because someone signed a pro contract, or has said they have interest from a national team. Hey Canada, I'm in my 40's and couldn't make my university team, but another country is talking about giving me a cap, so maybe you should give me a call!

If we are in fact going to be regular participants in World Cups going forward, then players may be more willing to wait, like how we always talk about other players saying they will probably commit, but not for another 4 or 5 more years while they wait to see if they can get into a better national side.

Well realistically you’re not gonna cap-tie everyone because some players are not gonna want to play for Canada or have other options. However  we do need to make a pitch to everyone. 
 

the current team when you look at it is pretty balanced with young and old players . After this World Cup we will probably lose 4-6 players cuz they will retire. Plus international football is being played a lot more. You got Gold Cup, Nations League, Friendlies , Olympics, the Olympic qualifiers, Youth World Cup qualifiers,Youth World Cups,  World Cup qualifiers, The World Cup. If we are going to keep going on this amazing Adventure we are gonna need depth. These past World Cup qualifiers we played like what 17-20 games and used over 35 players and we really didn’t have major injuries. That’s super lucky and good planning/organizing. 

Canada needs to use the Gold Cup ( treat it like a 2nd tier tournament) like the Americans do. Canada needs to play more and bigger Friendlies ( which we will). With the new huge money coming in because of the World Cup, it’s going to change everything and I hope we as fans, the CSA and everyone should be expecting more and thinking bigger. 

 

 

[Shway]

Has Alejandro Pozuelo been mentioned here?

I know he's nearing 5 years in Canada....what's the possibility?

[VinceA]

1 hour ago, Shway said:

Has Alejandro Pozuelo been mentioned here?

I know he's nearing 5 years in Canada....what's the possibility?

Earliest would be 2024 and I don't think he'll be in Toronto by then.

[narduch]

Just now, VinceA said:

Earliest would be 2024 and I don't think he'll be in Toronto by then.

And he'll be 32

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, VinceA said:

Earliest would be 2024 and I don't think he'll be in Toronto by then.

Maybe he resigns as a TAM, like Bradley, instead of going to the middle east for more money, like Giovinco and Vasquez.

Assuming he is an eligible Canadian by then, why not? If he wants to come aboard to support the project, I don't have a problem with it. The age doesn't bother me, since Canada won't be building around him anyways. I imagine we'd use him like we use Wotherspoon, but with all due respect I think Pozuelo would be an upgrade on Spoony, as much as I like him. 

 

[VinceA]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Maybe he resigns as a TAM, like Bradley, instead of going to the middle east for more money, like Giovinco and Vasquez.

Assuming he is an eligible Canadian by then, why not? If he wants to come aboard to support the project, I don't have a problem with it. The age doesn't bother me, since Canada won't be building around him anyways. I imagine we'd use him like we use Wotherspoon, but with all due respect I think Pozuelo would be an upgrade on Spoony, as much as I like him. 

 

A few reporters around the TFC beat like Michael Singh have said the relationship between Pozuelo and the team and players isn't the best which makes me think he's not coming back.

If he does end up staying though, then hell yeah, although of course Poz himself would have to work towards getting citizenship.

[Jack1997]

Right now our biggest fights are

Goodman, GK, Crystal palace CAN,ENG,USA, I’d say we have a lead in this one from what we’ve heard which is promising.

Dias, CAM, Sporting CP, CAN,POR, I honestly have no clue about this one it looked good for a bit having him at the Olympics qualifying and him saying he enjoyed his time but recently we haven’t heard anything and him not being with the u20 was a bit concerning.

Mitrovic, CM/W, Radnicki nis, CAN SRB, just a few months ago I would’ve said he’s almost locked In but now I’d say Serbia has better odds, his dad is also needs to let him do his own things and control his own career.

Smith, CDM/CB, OGC Nice, CAN,FRA, I feel like we’re leading in this one,very promising player who is by far the best CB prospect we have and tbh the only good one.

Koleosho, W, Espanyol, CAN,USA, this one I belive were in the front seat with him being called up and I think the whole USA fans saying he was using us to get to them was a bunch of bs and just them being jealous but tbh I’m just a fan and don’t have any insider information at all.

Jebbison, ST, Sheffield UTD., CAN,ENG, this one is one where I think we’ll end up with him in like 3-4 years once he realizes he can’t play for England but I think right now his mind is on England and we won’t be changing that for a while.

Onduze, GK, Leicester, CAN,ENG,NIG,USA, status of this one Is pretty unknown from what I know honestly he’s probably better than Goodman atm, feel like herdman aid working on him though.

those are the main ones other ones I can think of are

Luc de frougolles, Fulham,

Jamie Knight lebel, Bristol city,

Noah abtenah, lazio

Jesse costa, Wolfsburg 

Gabriel pellegrini, Freiburg 

That’s all I could think of if there’s any I missed tell me but I really think we are growing in soccer/football as a nation dual nationals will still be a crucial part of our national team for years to come.

 

 

 

[Obinna]

38 minutes ago, Jack1997 said:

Right now our biggest fights are

Goodman, GK, Crystal palace CAN,ENG,USA, I’d say we have a lead in this one from what we’ve heard which is promising.

Dias, CAM, Sporting CP, CAN,POR, I honestly have no clue about this one it looked good for a bit having him at the Olympics qualifying and him saying he enjoyed his time but recently we haven’t heard anything and him not being with the u20 was a bit concerning.

Mitrovic, CM/W, Radnicki nis, CAN SRB, just a few months ago I would’ve said he’s almost locked In but now I’d say Serbia has better odds, his dad is also needs to let him do his own things and control his own career.

Smith, CDM/CB, OGC Nice, CAN,FRA, I feel like we’re leading in this one,very promising player who is by far the best CB prospect we have and tbh the only good one.

Koleosho, W, Espanyol, CAN,USA, this one I belive were in the front seat with him being called up and I think the whole USA fans saying he was using us to get to them was a bunch of bs and just them being jealous but tbh I’m just a fan and don’t have any insider information at all.

Jebbison, ST, Sheffield UTD., CAN,ENG, this one is one where I think we’ll end up with him in like 3-4 years once he realizes he can’t play for England but I think right now his mind is on England and we won’t be changing that for a while.

Onduze, GK, Leicester, CAN,ENG,NIG,USA, status of this one Is pretty unknown from what I know honestly he’s probably better than Goodman atm, feel like herdman aid working on him though.

those are the main ones other ones I can think of are

Luc de frougolles, Fulham,

Jamie Knight lebel, Bristol city,

Noah abtenah, lazio

Jesse costa, Wolfsburg 

Gabriel pellegrini, Freiburg 

That’s all I could think of if there’s any I missed tell me but I really think we are growing in soccer/football as a nation dual nationals will still be a crucial part of our national team for years to come.

 

 

 

Good summary. There are only 5 players from that list who are important at this time. Here's how I rank them in terms of urgency.

1. Dias - 1st team looks with Sporting could attract Portugal. We should cap tie him and not tempt fate.
2. Koleosho - Great prospect who could easily slip to the Americans. I want this one wrapped up quickly.
3. Mitrovic - It may be a silly take, but I would put him higher if not for his dad. 
4. Jebbison - I have accepted he's multiple years away. I don't think he's England NT material. 
5. Smith - Further away from France than Jebbison is from England and in our system already.  

If I were to include Pepple I would put him between Mitrovic and Jebbison. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Obinna

[Dominic94]

I feel like it needs to be said so…. Canada has been trying to cap tie Jebbison and Dias for over a year, it is the players who are refusing/holding out for various reasons that could seriously affect their job and earning potential later in their career.

[Footyeh]

1 hour ago, Jack1997 said:

Right now our biggest fights are

Goodman, GK, Crystal palace CAN,ENG,USA, I’d say we have a lead in this one from what we’ve heard which is promising.

Dias, CAM, Sporting CP, CAN,POR, I honestly have no clue about this one it looked good for a bit having him at the Olympics qualifying and him saying he enjoyed his time but recently we haven’t heard anything and him not being with the u20 was a bit concerning.

Mitrovic, CM/W, Radnicki nis, CAN SRB, just a few months ago I would’ve said he’s almost locked In but now I’d say Serbia has better odds, his dad is also needs to let him do his own things and control his own career.

Smith, CDM/CB, OGC Nice, CAN,FRA, I feel like we’re leading in this one,very promising player who is by far the best CB prospect we have and tbh the only good one.

Koleosho, W, Espanyol, CAN,USA, this one I belive were in the front seat with him being called up and I think the whole USA fans saying he was using us to get to them was a bunch of bs and just them being jealous but tbh I’m just a fan and don’t have any insider information at all.

Jebbison, ST, Sheffield UTD., CAN,ENG, this one is one where I think we’ll end up with him in like 3-4 years once he realizes he can’t play for England but I think right now his mind is on England and we won’t be changing that for a while.

Onduze, GK, Leicester, CAN,ENG,NIG,USA, status of this one Is pretty unknown from what I know honestly he’s probably better than Goodman atm, feel like herdman aid working on him though.

those are the main ones other ones I can think of are

Luc de frougolles, Fulham,

Jamie Knight lebel, Bristol city,

Noah abtenah, lazio

Jesse costa, Wolfsburg 

Gabriel pellegrini, Freiburg 

That’s all I could think of if there’s any I missed tell me but I really think we are growing in soccer/football as a nation dual nationals will still be a crucial part of our national team for years to come.

 

 

 

There's far too much talk about dual nationals among Canadian fans nowadays.  Not every player that has a 2nd passport is someone to be talking about in terms of locking for Canada.  Do we even have the dual nationals that are even good enough to be in the conversation for the other Nations that they hold a passport for???  I honestly believe that other than maybe Koleosho, who can be tied to USA at multiple ages before even reaching Senior International football, I don't think we have to worry about any of these players.  Goodman?  When has he ever been apart of the England setup at any level?  Who's the source that's claiming he's even of interest to England?  Dias will play for Canada eventually, as will Jebbison.  Those two countries have significant talent around those ages already much further along.  Is Mitrovic good enough for Serbia's A side right now?  Probably not, but he's also not ready to play for our A side as well so why the panic? 

11 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

I feel like it needs to be said so…. Canada has been trying to cap tie Jebbison and Dias for over a year, it is the players who are refusing/holding out for various reasons that could seriously affect their job and earning potential later in their career.

As @Dominic94said, for Jebbison it's strictly a business decision to play for England until he no longer can.  Dias it was the same as well, but now he hasn't been included in any Portugal squad so he'll likely end up in Canada shirt sooner.

[Kent]

5 hours ago, Footyeh said:

There's far too much talk about dual nationals among Canadian fans nowadays.  Not every player that has a 2nd passport is someone to be talking about in terms of locking for Canada.

This is where I am at too. I'm not going to lose sleep over guys unless they are at the Junior Hoilett, JDG2, OH kind of levels. Basically, if they are getting playing time in a top 4 league, and thus can walk into our starting lineup and make a difference, then I will really worry about them.

Keep an eye on guys with big potential, sure. But coming up with plans of caping 2 or 3 guys every camp are over the top.

[red card]

US & Mexico adding a bureaucratic layer to dual Mexican-American decision-making. Must sign a LOI before playing. Maybe no more sampling.

But in the end, FIFA rules apply. And as seen with US college LOIs, it can be torn up.

 

[dyslexic nam]

53 minutes ago, red card said:

US & Mexico adding a bureaucratic layer to dual Mexican-American decision-making. Must sign a LOI before playing. Maybe no more sampling.

But in the end, FIFA rules apply. And as seen with US college LOIs, it can be torn up.

 

I am no lawyer but in my experience a letter of intent isn’t worth much.   Until a formal commitment is made a letter of intent signifies just that - intent.   It isn’t binding and you can’t be held to it because intentions change over time.  Would one of the federations ultimately reject the advances of a really promising dual national because they once signed a piece of paper saying that they intended to play for the other side?  I doubt it.  A lot of these informal (and unenforceable) agreements get exposed when push comes to shove and one party finds out they stand to lose something substantial.   

[Norrin Radd]

6 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am no lawyer but in my experience a letter of intent isn’t worth much.   Until a formal commitment is made a letter of intent signifies just that - intent.   It isn’t binding and you can’t be held to it because intentions change over time.  Would one of the federations ultimately reject the advances of a really promising dual national because they once signed a piece of paper saying that they intended to play for the other side?  I doubt it.  A lot of these informal (and unenforceable) agreements get exposed when push comes to shove and one party finds out they stand to lose something substantial.  

Would this be fundamentally different than the home nations agreement between the four FAs within the UK? I believe that is essentially a handshake agreement with no enforcement mechanism in place. There have been cases in the past where Scotland and NI were interested in certain players but chose not to call them up as they didn't want to break the agreement. If the American and Mexican associations both feel such an accord would be beneficial for them in the long term they could simply choose not to call up players that have signed a letter with the other association.

It's probably not that straight forward as the legalities of the matter will certainly differ between the US and the UK and it might be a moot point as it's only a rumour at this time.

[Unnamed Trialist]

9 hours ago, red card said:

US & Mexico adding a bureaucratic layer to dual Mexican-American decision-making. Must sign a LOI before playing. Maybe no more sampling.

But in the end, FIFA rules apply. And as seen with US college LOIs, it can be torn up.

 

I don't think this has any validity under FIFA rules. 

The national federations can't impose this, don't  think, even if the aim is to establish a sort of non aggression pact. 

[Macksam]

How about getting the player to sign a letter of indemnity instead? If said player backs out, all costs related to recruitment, youth camps, etc. have to be paid back? That seems like something with more legal muscle than whatever this is.

[MauditYvon]

Camacho could be eligible for citizenship in March, the same month he’ll turn 32. Don’t like him, just wanted to share (before I get blasted).

[Joe MacCarthy]

 

[VinceA]

One reason it is so important to have regular youth camps is we need to get to these guys first. Ultimately we lost Yankov and Mitrovic because when we finally approached them and the paperwork starts to get filed their current FA is notified and then they can act or not. In both cases Bulgaria and Serbia moved to give the players an offer to play for the senior team. That never happens if we actually called them at the youth levels.

The recent U-20 camp should be very helpful in that regard.

[The Real Marc]

Both those guys would have still gotten offers to play for their respective senior teams.

Bringing kids into youth camps reduces the likelihood they choose someone else, but it doesn't stop anyone. Yankov played u15 for us IIRC.