Octavio Zambrano

[SpecialK]

7 hours ago, Kent said:

So Morace is a good coach but with bad results because the players can't handle her superior coaching. Herdman is a bad coach who just happens to get good results because the stupid players somehow buy his BS. Am I getting it right?

As for Herdman's women's team doing "nothing" in the World Cup, granted he had the benefit of having a home World Cup, but we won our group and round of 16 match before losing the quarter final. It is our best result in the last 4 World Cups, and 2nd best result in the World Cup ever (our best being in 2003 finishing in 4th place).

As for the Olympics, there is nothing about Herdman's 2 Olympics that need to be taken with a grain of salt in my opinion. The Olympics isn't at the same level as the World Cup due to it being less deep, but that is true of the Olympics before and after Herdman's time as well. 3rd in the Olympics shouldn't be considered as great as 3rd in the World Cup, but within the realm of the Olympics, no grains of salt needed. The grain of salt is actually in his (somewhat positive) World Cup result, since we were the hosts, which gives us an advantage over others.

No- Morace brought an old school style, hard nose, hold people accountable. Herdman is happy planet, let’s hold hands together. It’s a difference of style. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by SpecialK

[The Ref]

6 hours ago, SpecialK said:

No- Morace brought an old school style, hard nose, hold people accountable. Herdman is happy planet, let’s old hands together. It’s a difference of style. 

I thought Morace was too soft compared to Pellerud.

[Canadamnt]

There was nothing that Zambrano did wrong to lose the job. If Herdman wasn't in the picture or leaving the WNT for another country, Zambrano would still probably be coach. I believe that the CSA at all costs did not want to lose and offered him the men's job even if it meant hiring Zambrano. Some decision like that could hypothetically happen again if Ancelotti offered to be coach however Herdman was still having success with the team. No one should give any credit to Floro. Having close games doesn't mean anything when your team can't get it past half. Look at how the u20 matches went, which were very reminiscent of Floroball.

[The Beaver 2.0]

On 6/26/2022 at 8:07 AM, The Pessimist said:

The question is: Would we have qualified for the World Cup with Zambrano in charge?

I would say Yes. Maybe not 1st in the Octagon but top 3 for sure.

 

Herdman got us to the World Cup by using the player's emotions. He instilled a feeling of brotherhood in the team and got them to believe in themselves. They ran their hearts out and got the results they needed.

 

I can only speculate but I think Zambrano would have used a more methodical approach. Perhaps better tactics. We saw in the last game with Honduras that the players failed to adapt to the playing conditions. The game required a different tactic. A more direct approach. Dribbling and short passes on a waterlogged field just didn't work. The players and the coach failed to adjust. They were still playing with emotions, not with their heads.

 

Getting results at the World Cup will require them to play with a combination of their hearts and their heads. 

 

Is Herdman the man to do that? I have my doubts.

 

Maybe Zambrano beats Herdman on tactics--maybe--but from my recollection Zambrano was a disaster organizationally.  If nothing else, Herdman is prepared. He is a motivator and he leaves no stone unturned in preparation. Will that be enough to get us out of the group in Qatar?  No, not on its own, but we need that foundation. 

[SpecialK]

5 minutes ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

Zambrano was a disaster organizationally. 

Was he though ? Or just some CSA BS trying to cover their ass? See that what bugs me the most about this. We don’t know the full facts and details. Oz and CSA both have given no real details or facts and our soccer media is so CSA bias it’s really painful. 

[kacbru]

The CSA has f*cked up, is f*cking up right now and will f*ck up in the future.  You've got lots of other opportunities to point that out.  But this was 4 years ago and Herdman has turned out ok.  I don't understand the fixation (and I was someone who was not sold on it initially).

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, SpecialK said:

Was he though ? Or just some CSA BS trying to cover their ass? See that what bugs me the most about this. We don’t know the full facts and details. Oz and CSA both have given no real details or facts and our soccer media is so CSA bias it’s really painful. 

When the CSA is a total mess and even many provincial associations, you can't determine a new hire is disorganized, it's not believable. 

He probably just expected them to be professionally run. Even Herdman said he had to knock on doors for funding, that shows what a mess things are. 

It was just underhanded hearsay to help discredit Octavio, and it works for some people who ape the comments. 

[frmr]

11 hours ago, kacbru said:

The CSA has f*cked up, is f*cking up right now and will f*ck up in the future.  You've got lots of other opportunities to point that out.  But this was 4 years ago and Herdman has turned out ok.  I don't understand the fixation (and I was someone who was not sold on it initially).

I'd say that's an understatement.

[Obinna]

I was pissed when Zambrano was fired and Herdman was appointed. Since then, Herdman has done what was expected and qualified us for the World Cup. It was a big accomplishment, but also the benchmark we all placed on him. We'll never know if Zambrano would have qualified us, but on paper we have a team that should've qualified regardless of who the coach was. The talent is such that coaching shouldn't (and probably wasn't) the thing that pushed us over the line.

However, Herdman's coaching did see us maximize our potential, I believe. That's because we finished top of the qualifying table. If you had asked me after Gold Cup 19 whether we had the "potential" to top concacaf qualifying, I would have said "yes, but it probably won't happen". 

The luster has worn off a bit, with us losing to Honduras away and stumbling away to Costa Rica and Panama, but overall I am content with the direction of the team under Herdman, which means I have let go of the Zambrano stuff. Maybe on another timeline he leads Canada to Qatar, but it wasn't meant to be. I wish the man nothing but the best in his coaching career. I will always have a soft spot for him. 

[BearcatSA]

I can't remember the make up of Zambrano's staff but I thought that Floro was also using the program as an avenue for his son's career in football coaching and managment.  Anyone know what little Floro is up to nowadays?

[VinceA]

31 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

I can't remember the make up of Zambrano's staff but I thought that Floro was also using the program as an avenue for his son's career in football coaching and managment.  Anyone know what little Floro is up to nowadays?

If Wikipedia is to be believed he hasn't done squat since 2015. His Twitter is also inactive.

[Sal333]

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

I was pissed when Zambrano was fired and Herdman was appointed. Since then, Herdman has done what was expected and qualified us for the World Cup. It was a big accomplishment, but also the benchmark we all placed on him. We'll never know if Zambrano would have qualified us, but on paper we have a team that should've qualified regardless of who the coach was. The talent is such that coaching shouldn't (and probably wasn't) the thing that pushed us over the line.

 

If I wasn't so goddamn lazy I would go back a year and a half and pull all the posts from this site to show you that hardly anyone was saying that. Also, all the media pundits had us out of the WC except for a couple of odd balls had us make it to 4th.

Sorry but that sentence is one freaking huge case of revisionism.

[Obinna]

7 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

If I wasn't so goddamn lazy I would go back a year and a half and pull all the posts from this site to show you that hardly anyone was saying that. Also, all the media pundits had us out of the WC except for a couple of odd balls had us make it to 4th.

Sorry but that sentence is one freaking huge case of revisionism.

That's because media pundits and even fans understand games aren't won on paper. IF that were the case Canada would have qualified well before the 1986 cycle.

For years we've had a team capable of qualifying, but we had so many organizational and psychological issues (dare I say a losers mentality) that meant we punched below our weight. 

So don't take the silence on that to suggest it wasn't the case. In 2019 we had players at Rangers, Besiktas, Bayern, Gent, Puebla and Red Star, and they were all regulars. On paper that's a team that qualifies out of CONCACAF. 

My point was that Herdman (on paper) was handed a squad that should qualify, so in that respect he merely did what should have been done. But in reality, Canada had mentality issues and Herdman turned that weakness into a strength, which is partially why we topped the section in qualifying. In that respect he has exceeded expectations. 

There are no prizes for the 1st place qualifier though, so I am inclined to side with anyone suggesting Herdman's accomplishment has simply been a change of culture, but otherwise has simply done what was expected. That's a big deal though, don't get me wrong. Just throwing out another perspective on it. 

[El Hombre]

23 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

If I wasn't so goddamn lazy I would go back a year and a half and pull all the posts from this site to show you that hardly anyone was saying that. Also, all the media pundits had us out of the WC except for a couple of odd balls had us make it to 4th.

Sorry but that sentence is one freaking huge case of revisionism.

You are right.  Pretty much everyone here last August had that last game with Panama circled as the deciding game as to whether we qualify automatically or go to a playoff (which at the time wasn't necessarily going to be against New Zealand, but could've gone against CONMEBOL which would've seriously reduced our chances of qualifying).

Then, for added fun, go to the game thread after the final whistle in that first game against Honduras.  After that draw, many people had us finishing well below fourth (especially if we continue to fail to call in Arfield)....

[El Diego]

We were legit scared of Suriname and, to an extent, Haiti

[Obinna]

I absolutely was scared of those games, but that's because the margin for error was small. Fear is warranted anytime the margin for error is small. Unless of course we were facing a minnow, which we weren't.

I stand by my comment that we had the squad to qualify, even with a poor coach (just like the USA). 

That's not to say our squad is as good as the states, or that Herdman doesn't deserve credit. It's just to say that not qualifying with the team we had would have been an epic disaster in a way that Panama, Honduras or El Salvador missing out wasn't. 

I put Jamaica in this category too, by the way. On paper had all the pieces to forge a strong team capable of qualifying, but they never even came close. They should have been fighting ourselves and Costa Rica for a direct spot. 

This is how I personally saw qualifying

Canada - overachieved

Mexico - underachieved

USA - underachieved

Costa Rica - neither (maybe underachieved)

Panama - overachieved

Jamaica - underachieved

El Salvador - neither (maybe overachieved)

Honduras - underachieved

And funny enough, 3 of the teams I thought overachieved my expectations were the ones who had gone through the preliminary rounds. Might be something to that. I really think it's hard to argue that Canada and Panama didn't surprise, while El Salvador were not as weak as I thought. Yeah they finished near the bottom, but they were competitive and that was somewhat surprising to me. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Obinna

[rkomar]

Back then, everyone thought our back line would be our Achille's heel.  Given the players we had, we were expected to have one of the more porous defenses.  But we didn't; going by memory I think we allowed fewer goals than anyone else during qualifying.  That comes down to coaching and team structure (plus some luck).  I don't agree that anyone could have been the manager and got us to the WC with these players.  They had to at least figure out how to keep the ball out of our net.

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 minutes ago, rkomar said:

Back then, everyone thought our back line would be our Achille's heel.  Given the players we had, we were expected to have one of the more porous defenses.  But we didn't; going by memory I think we allowed fewer goals than anyone else during qualifying.  That comes down to coaching and team structure (plus some luck).  I don't agree that anyone could have been the manager and got us to the WC with these players.  They had to at least figure out how to keep the ball out of our net.

Agree. We had no defence to make us believe we could defend properly. It was going to be Borjan trying to stop a shooting spree in his face. 

Vitoria played way over his head, it is probably the most important performance because it was totally unexpected. Then Johnston and Miller fit in and it worked. our DMs too, because we were hardly ever subject to shots from the top of the box, most of what challenged us was from in close.

All of that is coaching, no question at all. I was mostly a Herdman detractor but what I liked was not so much the pure results, but the specific improvements on small and sometimes larger weaknesses. He corrected details for the better. This is what convinced me above all.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[costarg]

17 hours ago, Obinna said:

That's because media pundits and even fans understand games aren't won on paper. IF that were the case Canada would have qualified well before the 1986 cycle.

For years we've had a team capable of qualifying, but we had so many organizational and psychological issues (dare I say a losers mentality) that meant we punched below our weight. 

So don't take the silence on that to suggest it wasn't the case. In 2019 we had players at Rangers, Besiktas, Bayern, Gent, Puebla and Red Star, and they were all regulars. On paper that's a team that qualifies out of CONCACAF. 

My point was that Herdman (on paper) was handed a squad that should qualify, so in that respect he merely did what should have been done. But in reality, Canada had mentality issues and Herdman turned that weakness into a strength, which is partially why we topped the section in qualifying. In that respect he has exceeded expectations. 

There are no prizes for the 1st place qualifier though, so I am inclined to side with anyone suggesting Herdman's accomplishment has simply been a change of culture, but otherwise has simply done what was expected. That's a big deal though, don't get me wrong. Just throwing out another perspective on it. 

Exactly!

We're far from being the only ones struggling with matching our supposed form on paper.  Just look at Holland, Belgium and Italy over the last 10 years. 

Coaching is just one of the wheels required to compete in the race, we can't put everything on that.

[InglewoodJack]

21 hours ago, Obinna said:

I was pissed when Zambrano was fired and Herdman was appointed. Since then, Herdman has done what was expected and qualified us for the World Cup. It was a big accomplishment, but also the benchmark we all placed on him. We'll never know if Zambrano would have qualified us, but on paper we have a team that should've qualified regardless of who the coach was. The talent is such that coaching shouldn't (and probably wasn't) the thing that pushed us over the line.

However, Herdman's coaching did see us maximize our potential, I believe. That's because we finished top of the qualifying table. If you had asked me after Gold Cup 19 whether we had the "potential" to top concacaf qualifying, I would have said "yes, but it probably won't happen". 

The luster has worn off a bit, with us losing to Honduras away and stumbling away to Costa Rica and Panama, but overall I am content with the direction of the team under Herdman, which means I have let go of the Zambrano stuff. Maybe on another timeline he leads Canada to Qatar, but it wasn't meant to be. I wish the man nothing but the best in his coaching career. I will always have a soft spot for him. 

I think the next 6-12 months is going to be the most consequential time in Herdman's career. As it stands, our program peaked after those two undefeated windows, and since then, we're 2-3, dropped about 10 spots on the world ranking, should've probably won at least 1 or 2 of those Ls, the stuff about Iran, then Panama (not chiefly Herdman's fault, but still reflects on the program). Let's say the worst happens and we get blanked 3 straight games in Qatar which isn't completely out of the realm of possibilities. All of a sudden, it's January 2023, and our success is now reframed as Canada sneaking in to a world cup as one of the worst teams all because FIFA let us play games in arctic conditions and we were lucky that a couple latin american teams are currently experiencing dry spells- even at that, since we beat them, Costa Rica has 8 wins, 1 loss and one draw, so are we even a top 3 concacaf nation anymore? 

 

This is all doom and gloom and even if we lose by 6 goals in every world cup game, Herdman is still a hero for what he's done for both national teams- he should be the first guy to get a statute outside of our future national team training grounds- hell, they should name the complex after him, but I think his lustre is beginning to wear off- not completely his fault, but he's going to need to score a couple wins in 2022 if he wants to not only steer this program in the right direction, but ultimately move on to bigger and better things, whether it's as a club manager or for a stronger international side some time down the line.

[Obinna]

I posted this in the Herdman thread but it may get lost in the shuffle, so I am going to post here as well and bump the thread:

Speaking of Zambrano, is that a potential replacement for Herdman or did he burn that bridge at the CSA forever? I seem to recall some kind of controversy, but seems like forever ago and I don't remember the details. Can anyone recall?

Zambrano was fine prior to Herdman and many of us were happy. Then when he got dumped for Herdman many of us went scorched earth on the CSA, myself included. Much like yourself, I was won over by Herdman and let go.

FWIW Zambrano since leaving us has gone on to manager to seperate Colombian clubs. The first was Independiente Medellin, which it seems he took to a 2nd place finish in the top flight, which is really good. Then he left for Deportivo Pasto who finished 6th, which was a massive improvement on their 18th place finish the season prior. So without actually following and just looking at wiki, it seems like he did good things. He was sacked for reasons unknown to me (I don't have the time to translate and my Spanish isn't good enough to interpret the linked article.

Either way, he was out of the game for a few years, then returned with FAS, which is one of the top clubs in El Salvador. Looks like he was sacked in April of this year. They finished a disappointing 6th so that's probably why. Nonetheless, Zambrano could make sense if the off field stuff (whatever happened) can be reconciled (on both sides). Hell, maybe Tabla would even get a recall.

Zambrano was big on him during his tenure, even though he technically made his debut under Herdman. 

[costarg]

On 6/30/2022 at 10:58 AM, InglewoodJack said:

I think the next 6-12 months is going to be the most consequential time in Herdman's career. As it stands, our program peaked after those two undefeated windows, and since then, we're 2-3, dropped about 10 spots on the world ranking, should've probably won at least 1 or 2 of those Ls, the stuff about Iran, then Panama (not chiefly Herdman's fault, but still reflects on the program). Let's say the worst happens and we get blanked 3 straight games in Qatar which isn't completely out of the realm of possibilities. All of a sudden, it's January 2023, and our success is now reframed as Canada sneaking in to a world cup as one of the worst teams all because FIFA let us play games in arctic conditions and we were lucky that a couple latin american teams are currently experiencing dry spells- even at that, since we beat them, Costa Rica has 8 wins, 1 loss and one draw, so are we even a top 3 concacaf nation anymore? 

 

This is all doom and gloom and even if we lose by 6 goals in every world cup game, Herdman is still a hero for what he's done for both national teams- he should be the first guy to get a statute outside of our future national team training grounds- hell, they should name the complex after him, but I think his lustre is beginning to wear off- not completely his fault, but he's going to need to score a couple wins in 2022 if he wants to not only steer this program in the right direction, but ultimately move on to bigger and better things, whether it's as a club manager or for a stronger international side some time down the line.

Gawd, this is accurate.  Change your handle to The Oracle @InglewoodJack

Edited August 22, 2023 by costarg

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

24 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Speaking of Zambrano, is that a potential replacement for Herdman or did he burn that bridge at the CSA forever?

I think he did.

Zambrano to TFC!

[Bison44]

You dont remember this Obinna??  According to the media types, Zambrano being a complete failure was the worst kept secret in Canadian soccer.  Seems like everyone on the inside knew he was doing something shady and was on the way out before the surprise announcment putting in Herdman.  There was  a lot of hinting at stuff and Zambrano himself said he was going to set the record straight at a later time....but I dont think we ever got a real reckoning. 

I thought then and I still do, it was prob 90% Herdman forcing the issue, trying to make a move up having plateaued with the women.  Sound familiar?? Wouldnt surprise me a bit since Herdman is not getting what he wants from CSA (camps/spending), sees the shit show quagmire with "labor" and equity issues, player discontentment etc, the growing staleness of a "motivation" coach going into a new cycle and he's trying to force a move to the mens pro game, if he cant get what he wants with CMNT.  In MLS most of those pesky national team problems are moot points.  

 

[VinceA]

19 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I posted this in the Herdman thread but it may get lost in the shuffle, so I am going to post here as well and bump the thread:

Speaking of Zambrano, is that a potential replacement for Herdman or did he burn that bridge at the CSA forever? I seem to recall some kind of controversy, but seems like forever ago and I don't remember the details. Can anyone recall?

Zambrano was fine prior to Herdman and many of us were happy. Then when he got dumped for Herdman many of us went scorched earth on the CSA, myself included. Much like yourself, I was won over by Herdman and let go.

FWIW Zambrano since leaving us has gone on to manager to seperate Colombian clubs. The first was Independiente Medellin, which it seems he took to a 2nd place finish in the top flight, which is really good. Then he left for Deportivo Pasto who finished 6th, which was a massive improvement on their 18th place finish the season prior. So without actually following and just looking at wiki, it seems like he did good things. He was sacked for reasons unknown to me (I don't have the time to translate and my Spanish isn't good enough to interpret the linked article.

Either way, he was out of the game for a few years, then returned with FAS, which is one of the top clubs in El Salvador. Looks like he was sacked in April of this year. They finished a disappointing 6th so that's probably why. Nonetheless, Zambrano could make sense if the off field stuff (whatever happened) can be reconciled (on both sides). Hell, maybe Tabla would even get a recall.

Zambrano was big on him during his tenure, even though he technically made his debut under Herdman. 

It was never officially reported but I believe Steven Sandor was the biggest on this: Zambrano was a mess behind the scenes as was financially irresponsible.

The biggest story I remember hearing was a six figure Portugal trip that culminated with one match being watched (I don't know if a Canadian was even involved in the match) and the ignoring of requests from Stephen Eustaquio's agent to meet with the player (at the time I think he was with Leixões) and supposedly (I don't know if I buy this) ignoring Cristante's brother's request for a meeting.

Digging I found this

https://the11.ca/worst-kept-secret-in-canadian-soccer-zambrano-was-on-hot-seat-from-day-one/

I can't find the tweet but the thing I remember reading the most about Zambrano was he was like George Costanza working on the Penske file. I didn't watch Seinfeld so I don't know what it means but I assume it was bad.