Octavio Zambrano

[BrennanFan]

48 minutes ago, RS said:

What is the root of this worry?

Various factors.  

To me it looks and feels like Herdman's hiring was a politically driven decision, and not a football decision.  

I trust Victor Montagliani's decision making far more than Reed's, given their track records.  Reed is basically a nobody and Vic could be FIFA pres one day, but let's go with Reeds guy, sure.

Even if OZ had been rightfully fired, there is no excuse to not go through a proper search for a replacement.  This makes the scenario of Herdman pressuring the CSA for the job all the more likely. 

Again, I don't think Herdman got the job due to his coaching skill or experience.  

Of course, his lack of experience in the men's game speaks for itself. Also, despite the medals and success with the women, Herdman underachieved at the tournament that mattered most in his tenure (and in the history of the CWNT) and that defines him in my books.  

All of this takes me back to 2007 and Dale Mitchell. The similarities are startling. Dale did well with the U20s, but when the pressure was on at home, he buckled.  

After a thorough search, the then CSA president Linford recommends Brazilian Rene Simoes, only to be back stabbed by the CSA board who then hire CSA old boy Dale Mitchell.  The rest is history.

CSA cronyism does not translate to the pitch.  I hope we do not re live history, but frankly repeating mistakes is what the CSA does. Would any association on earth ever hire CSA staff coach to get a team to the World Cup? Of course not. Why do we keep doing this to ourselves?

The sad part is this time we did have the money to bring in an experienced head coach.  

[RS]

7 hours ago, BrennanFan said:

Various factors.  

To me it looks and feels like Herdman's hiring was a politically driven decision, and not a football decision.  

I trust Victor Montagliani's decision making far more than Reed's, given their track records.  Reed is basically a nobody and Vic could be FIFA pres one day, but let's go with Reeds guy, sure.

Even if OZ had been rightfully fired, there is no excuse to not go through a proper search for a replacement.  This makes the scenario of Herdman pressuring the CSA for the job all the more likely. 

Again, I don't think Herdman got the job due to his coaching skill or experience.  

Of course, his lack of experience in the men's game speaks for itself. Also, despite the medals and success with the women, Herdman underachieved at the tournament that mattered most in his tenure (and in the history of the CWNT) and that defines him in my books.  

All of this takes me back to 2007 and Dale Mitchell. The similarities are startling. Dale did well with the U20s, but when the pressure was on at home, he buckled.  

After a thorough search, the then CSA president Linford recommends Brazilian Rene Simoes, only to be back stabbed by the CSA board who then hire CSA old boy Dale Mitchell.  The rest is history.

CSA cronyism does not translate to the pitch.  I hope we do not re live history, but frankly repeating mistakes is what the CSA does. Would any association on earth ever hire CSA staff coach to get a team to the World Cup? Of course not. Why do we keep doing this to ourselves?

The sad part is this time we did have the money to bring in an experienced head coach.  

Even if all of that is true, you haven't illustrated what makes you worry that Herdman is "absolutely clueless." Rather, to me, the issue you have is with the CSA. And the issue of cronyism isn't unique to the CSA in the world of soccer, in fact many FAs succeed in spite of themselves.

On point: Herdman's success with the women clearly demonstrates he's far from clueless. No amount of trying to downplay what the women achieved under him changes that (this isn't aimed at you, specifically). He has to prove himself with the men, as every coach has to do whenever they take over a new team, but he hasn't shown yet whether he's ahead of the curve or out of his depth, IMO.

In short, I find all of this excessively premature.

[BrennanFan]

I thought this twitter commentary was notable:

 

[BCM]

While we're on OZ, he is still tweeting about Canadian soccer. Three recent interesting tweets:

And critically , today (the tweet that led to the dialogue @BrennanFan posted)

 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by BCM

[Corazon]

I'll support Herdman but I was a big fan of OZ, his tactics and his plans, ideas and goals for the program.  I believe Herdman was on board with the CSA's plans and Zambrano was not.

What @BrennanFan posted was a big part of his letting go from what I heard.  Along with him being very vocal and demanding of friendlies and camps.  Not sure of the accuracy.

Its also great to see that he is still actively following Canadian soccer.

[Dominic94]

Where’s the discussion?

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, Corazon said:

I'll support Herdman but I was a big fan of OZ, his tactics and his plans, ideas and goals for the program.  I believe Herdman was on board with the CSA's plans and Zambrano was not.

What @BrennanFan posted was a big part of his letting go from what I heard.  Along with him being very vocal and demanding of friendlies and camps.  Not sure of the accuracy.

Its also great to see that he is still actively following Canadian soccer.

OZ is miles ahead of Herdman, any way you look at it. 

We have a corrupt system and Herdman played to it.

Imagine with these players and a proper experienced coach!

[lazlo_80]

if we start posting "i heard that..." tweets in this thread it'll be endless and pointless...so pretty much status quo for this board. hahaha.

Though i am surprised by the number of defenders of this guy. 

[apbsmith]

The first couple tweets are pure class, not a fan of his tweet today only cause you can tell it was personal, oh well, freedom of speech. 

Disappointing he is not involved in a scouting and talent ID if that is the case. 

To play devil's advocate...

I'm not denying his soccer IQ by any means but do you guys stand by his selection of slow as molasses defenders vs Jamaica that resulted in our QF exit?  Do you think we looked flat in that game as a squad vs Jamaica in the Gold Cup(-Hoilett)? How many soccer "tournaments/competitions" has OZ ever won as a manager? Do you find it strange out of 14 clubs he coached he never lasted 3 seasons anywhere, often times he was one and done.

I wish I had 5% of his credentials, I'm just curious on your thoughts, many wanted to make him the new president and I wasn't 100% sold.

[BCM]

7 hours ago, apbsmith said:

The first couple tweets are pure class, not a fan of his tweet today only cause you can tell it was personal, oh well, freedom of speech. 

Disappointing he is not involved in a scouting and talent ID if that is the case. 

To play devil's advocate...

I'm not denying his soccer IQ by any means but do you guys stand by his selection of slow as molasses defenders vs Jamaica that resulted in our QF exit?  Do you think we looked flat in that game as a squad vs Jamaica in the Gold Cup(-Hoilett)? How many soccer "tournaments/competitions" has OZ ever won as a manager? Do you find it strange out of 14 clubs he coached he never lasted 3 seasons anywhere, often times he was one and done.

I wish I had 5% of his credentials, I'm just curious on your thoughts, many wanted to make him the new president and I wasn't 100% sold.

Fair enough, but most coaches don't win many championships (until they do). I see OZ has a perfect first stage builder. His act wears thin and he moves on, but he has the ability to change the course of the ship. That's what we needed - a cultural change from ultra defensive to more attacking football, a generational change, etc. Like you, I'm not 100% sold on him but I am still bitter at the secretive manner of his departure. Everyone involved in Canadian soccer deserved better.

Edited June 21, 2019 by BCM

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, apbsmith said:

The first couple tweets are pure class, not a fan of his tweet today only cause you can tell it was personal, oh well, freedom of speech. 

Disappointing he is not involved in a scouting and talent ID if that is the case. 

To play devil's advocate...

I'm not denying his soccer IQ by any means but do you guys stand by his selection of slow as molasses defenders vs Jamaica that resulted in our QF exit?  Do you think we looked flat in that game as a squad vs Jamaica in the Gold Cup(-Hoilett)? How many soccer "tournaments/competitions" has OZ ever won as a manager? Do you find it strange out of 14 clubs he coached he never lasted 3 seasons anywhere, often times he was one and done.

I wish I had 5% of his credentials, I'm just curious on your thoughts, many wanted to make him the new president and I wasn't 100% sold.

In any case, no one here wants Herdman to fail. If he succeeds, he makes us happy and vindicates himself and the CSA with him. So no problem there. He has had way more time to do piss all, however, than OZ, who was required to react, perform and comply in conditions which I feel were unfair and counterproductive. Let the processes play out and let all the pieces fit into place. 

If OZ was trying to scout regions and youth outside of the cronyism of the pay-to-play club structure, then all power to him. As long as the provincial SAs do not implement competitive structures to properly expose quality and with that those who are conning kids and their families (which is something bad results actually can demonstrate), we are going to have difficulties. 

Being a Barça member, have to say, I am very bothered by the system of FCB schools in North America, with quite a few in Canada. They are money-making endeavours which refuse to test quality by playing proper competition, benefitting from the club name to recruit kids. Now if these clubs were to be playing proper leagues and winning against regional rivals, all of that would not matter, but they too are using the flawed system, which for me is unethical.

[BCM]

20 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

In any case, no one here wants Herdman to fail. If he succeeds, he makes us happy and vindicates himself and the CSA with him. So no problem there. He has had way more time to do piss all, however, than OZ, who was required to react, perform and comply in conditions which I feel were unfair and counterproductive. Let the processes play out and let all the pieces fit into place. 

If OZ was trying to scout regions and youth outside of the cronyism of the pay-to-play club structure, then all power to him. As long as the provincial SAs do not implement competitive structures to properly expose quality and with that those who are conning kids and their families (which is something bad results actually can demonstrate), we are going to have difficulties. 

Being a Barça member, have to say, I am very bothered by the system of FCB schools in North America, with quite a few in Canada. They are money-making endeavours which refuse to test quality by playing proper competition, benefitting from the club name to recruit kids. Now if these clubs were to be playing proper leagues and winning against regional rivals, all of that would not matter, but they too are using the flawed system, which for me is unethical.

Mate we have all the "academies" here in Hong Kong - they're all as bad as each other... FCB, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Manchester United, with each charging a fortune for training.  None of the trainers have anything to do with the "real" teams (and most the kids are quite frankly terrible footballers), and it's just branding and money making.

Your boys even have a regional office here, which has helped increase Asian sponsorships three fold since arrival in 2013. InvestHK likes to trumpet FCB as a model for other Euro clubs to follow.

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 minutes ago, BCM said:

Mate we have all the "academies" here in Hong Kong - they're all as bad as each other... FCB, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Manchester United, with each charging a fortune for training.  None of the trainers have anything to do with the "real" teams (and most the kids are quite frankly terrible footballers), and it's just branding and money making.

Your boys even have a regional office here, which has helped increase Asian sponsorships three fold since arrival in 2013. InvestHK likes to trumpet FCB as a model for other Euro clubs to follow.

FCB usually has proper coaches, who are indeed connected and related to the overall system. The problem is the litmus test of quality. In Canada we have 6 schools and almost 600 kids, and there is no way of knowing how good they are--and worse, the dumb parents don't care either. 

The Escola system is not federated in Barcelona either, they play tournaments against each other, so it is the case of exporting the worse of the Spanish model to North America. This is especially problematic as the level is just average, and rarely does a kid make the step up from there to a quality academy and then pro. Jordi Gomez who was at Wigan was an exception. This is not a problem for FCB, because they do have kids teams at all levels and they are obviously amazing. But it is bad for Canada--or Hong Kong--as simply put you are not taking all the kids and throwing them into a competitive structure where the bullshit can be clearly exposed and with it the overcharging.

Back to the point: is Herdman or the CSA at all concerned about this or are they fearful to rock the boat?

[BCM]

52 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

FCB usually has proper coaches, who are indeed connected and related to the overall system. The problem is the litmus test of quality. In Canada we have 6 schools and almost 600 kids, and there is no way of knowing how good they are--and worse, the dumb parents don't care either. 

The Escola system is not federated in Barcelona either, they play tournaments against each other, so it is the case of exporting the worse of the Spanish model to North America. This is especially problematic as the level is just average, and rarely does a kid make the step up from there to a quality academy and then pro. Jordi Gomez who was at Wigan was an exception. This is not a problem for FCB, because they do have kids teams at all levels and they are obviously amazing. But it is bad for Canada--or Hong Kong--as simply put you are not taking all the kids and throwing them into a competitive structure where the ******** can be clearly exposed and with it the overcharging.

Back to the point: is Herdman or the CSA at all concerned about this or are they fearful to rock the boat?

Here, the coaches for all these club teams are most often the poorly paid African imports to the pro HK league (with a few coaching for multiple euro teams at the same time!), and recently retired foreign (mainly African but some Eastern European) and local pros. Mixed with locals that never quite made it in the domestic league. There's the odd Englishman as well. I struggle to see any connection to the home side - but again, here it's all about $$$. Most of these teams just train, don't even play matches. All for the low price of about CND$100 a training session for the parent.

But the better kids get set up with the pro teams - not quite academies but let's call them that. They're free, and training more intense. I guess the same in Canada now, the better kids go to the academies. The difference being cost, right?

I don't think anyone in Canada wants to rock the boat, but you may be right, they may not even see anything wrong with it.

Edited June 21, 2019 by BCM

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, BCM said:

Here, the coaches for all these club teams are most often the poorly paid African imports to the pro HK league (with a few coaching for multiple euro teams at the same time!), and recently retired foreign (mainly African but some Eastern European) and local pros. Mixed with locals that never quite made it in the domestic league. There's the odd Englishman as well. I struggle to see any connection to the home side - but again, here it's all about $$$. Most of these teams just train, don't even play matches. All for the low price of about CND$100 a training session for the parent.

But the better kids get set up with the pro teams - not quite academies but let's call them that. They're free, and training more intense. I guess the same in Canada now, the better kids go to the academies. The difference being cost, right?

I don't think anyone in Canada wants to rock the boat, but you may be right, they may not even see anything wrong with it.

What I think the CPL clubs can do is this:

1-freeze out local soccer capitalists, or at least not reward them for their dishonesty. 

2-create their own proper youth programs, or back affiliate programs, focused on development and quality. A kid in university and then PDL, is getting August to November, and then late April to late July. That is not bad but lacks continuity. Academies or affiliates  need to be playing as close as possible to 10 months a year, minumum. 2 months off or more is too long.

3-work to get their youth academies proper competition, however that may work. We need provincial SAs to do a better job, not only setting up High Performance, but expanding it and, if possible, tiering it with promotion and relegation.

4-continue to offer contracts to young players out of the MLS academies who may want a bit more playing time and are happy to start modestly. 

 

 

 

[jtpc]

Nice to see OZ compliment CanMNT on Twitter this morning, saying our talent level is comparable if not superior to any team in CONCACAF. 👍

Full tweet:

Dear Canada Soccer fans, the CanMNT is no longer the underdog, to posture or play like one, is a mistake. The talent level is comparable if not superior to any of the CONCACAF top nations. Canada is a candidate and must assert itself as such. Win the Gold Cup, nothing to fear.

Edited June 24, 2019 by jtpc

[apbsmith]

54 minutes ago, jtpc said:

Nice to see OZ compliment CanMNT on Twitter this morning, saying our talent level is comparable if not superior to any team in CONCACAF. 👍

Full tweet:

Dear Canada Soccer fans, the CanMNT is no longer the underdog, to posture or play like one, is a mistake. The talent level is comparable if not superior to any of the CONCACAF top nations. Canada is a candidate and must assert itself as such. Win the Gold Cup, nothing to fear.

That's the OZ we all like. 

I'll always be thankful for him initially turning the ship around 180 and bringing Cav back on board + calling MAK in 2017 where Bob Bradley scouted him.

[SkuseisLoose]

1 hour ago, jtpc said:

Nice to see OZ compliment CanMNT on Twitter this morning, saying our talent level is comparable if not superior to any team in CONCACAF. 👍

Full tweet:

Dear Canada Soccer fans, the CanMNT is no longer the underdog, to posture or play like one, is a mistake. The talent level is comparable if not superior to any of the CONCACAF top nations. Canada is a candidate and must assert itself as such. Win the Gold Cup, nothing to fear.

I generally feel like he really loved the team and the transition he started away from floro ball. And I also think he only tweeted the other thing because he thought Herdman was having a go at him. 

[Corazon]

I love that he is still connected with the program even if he sends the slight dig towards the CSA.  I feel you get international managers sometimes come in and were in it for the wrong reasons.  I don't know much on what Floro is doing now, but I doubt he is following the Men's program like OZ has been.

[nolbertos]

Somewhere Zambrano must be having a chuckle on Herdman’s tactics.  Zambrano got us to the quarters on a harder group, IMO, and now with a better team, Canada blows a 2-0 lead and lose 3-2.  

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

5 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

Somewhere Zambrano must be having a chuckle on Herdman’s tactics.  Zambrano got us to the quarters on a harder group, IMO, and now with a better team, Canada blows a 2-0 lead and lose 3-2.  

I wonder what Eustaquio thinks of Zambrano and what he thinks of Herdman.

[apbsmith]

If you read my posts above I critized OZ for his player selection vs Jamaica in the QF in 2017. 

Honestly, now I have even more respect for OZ.... why? He recognized his player selection error in the 2017 Gold Cup QF when our CB was getting torched and brought in a faster James at CB at the 50 min mark. 

In 2017, OZ had Adekugbe at LB and Petrasso at RB (crazy right?), and both had minimal criticsm at only young 20something year olds. All the criticism was our slow CB's.

(Edit a bit of Kaye and Dejong as FB also).

 

Edited June 30, 2019 by apbsmith

[The Ref]

The CSA's sacking of OZ backfired on them big time.  The CSA will never learn.

[saladroit]

 

OZ dug up a year old rant lol

[apbsmith]

20 mins after I posted a Sid rant coming Monday about the L in the Haiti thread, he posts that on twitter.

Honestly, I missed that rant above, thx for sharing.

Edited July 5, 2019 by apbsmith