Octavio Zambrano

[narduch]

28 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I don't think you can "take with a grain of salt" an Olympic Gold medal where they beat 3 of the top 10 ranked teams in the knockout stage.

But that wasn't with Herdman as coach

[Bison44]

8 minutes ago, narduch said:

But that wasn't with Herdman as coach

See, what happened with the womens program after Morace left was all Herdman....and the greater success they had after Herdman left is still all Herdman.  Try and keep up eh?? 

[narduch]

7 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

See, what happened with the womens program after Morace left was all Herdman....and the greater success they had after Herdman left is still all Herdman.  Try and keep up eh?? 

On a more serious note. I have been thinking that maybe Herdman was what the CanMNT needed to get to where they are, but we will need an even better manager to get to an even higher level.

[Unnamed Trialist]

17 hours ago, Footyeh said:

Players in BC were begging for 20 years to get rid of Michael Findley from the CSA and Provincial Teams..

"Players"--no evidence at all. Begging for twenty years? Stuff that.

Sounds like a bit of hearsay about someone left off a team--maybe you, a friend-- so you can shit on a legacy (which wasn't 20 years, by the way). 

He was very competent and loyal for Canada and actually knows what he is doing. He emergency managed us properly, and his results for Grenada are very good considering their level.

[Sal333]

2 hours ago, SpecialK said:

Some could say the women couldn’t handle a tough coach and needed a new age coach that would baby them and everything is happy planet world all day long. Also by the way herdman and women’s did nothing in the world cups and you could argue that the Olympic medals that we won should be to take with a grain of salt because not all top teams were there competing.

Don't take my word for it. Listen to the players on the men and women sides. Most pay homage to the man. Borjan has done it. Hutch. Eustaquio. Sinclair. K. Buchanan. Lawrence.  When asked who or what is responsible for the recent success of Canadian soccer many have publicly said John Herdman. 

Now who should I listen to? 

[Colliedor]

We hate Herdman now? Whats going on in this thread? lol

[narduch]

2 minutes ago, Colliedor said:

We hate Herdman now? Whats going on in this thread? lol

I don't hate Herdman. I just hate the myth making

[RJB]

I seem to recall De Vos was right in there with a knife if Zambranos back. And then surprise!  He's in the staff.

How Herdman got the job is shady no doubt. I thought it was poor then, and poor now. I also don't think at the time that OZ deserved to be let go. 

But, the end justifies the means.  I and others are eating crow on this one - happily I might add, because we're going to the world cup!

[rkomar]

The Own the Podium grant that the women's team got forced them to report progress, do proper accounting, justify expenses,...  all that stuff that competent organizations do.  Herdman reported sitting at CSA meetings where it was clear that little of that was being done on the men's side of things.  I'm sure the CSA realized on their own that the men's organization needed to be run better.

[Footyeh]

6 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

"Players"--no evidence at all. Begging for twenty years? Stuff that.

Sounds like a bit of hearsay about someone left off a team--maybe you, a friend-- so you can shit on a legacy (which wasn't 20 years, by the way). 

He was very competent and loyal for Canada and actually knows what he is doing. He emergency managed us properly, and his results for Grenada are very good considering their level.

Yeah... you don't have to believe me if you don't want but you also aren't from BC you don't know the guy, you've never had to work with him, you probably don't know any players that have worked with him, how he was running things in the BC Provincial Teams, things he's done over the years in the BC Community.  And I actually did play for him, on more than one team lol... While he was working with BC Soccer he was also running the Canadian National Training Center out West so there was no escaping him.  You referenced the old boys network across the country holding people back in this thread, he was definitely apart of that.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

59 minutes ago, Footyeh said:

Yeah... you don't have to believe me if you don't want but you also aren't from BC you don't know the guy, you've never had to work with him, you probably don't know any players that have worked with him, how he was running things in the BC Provincial Teams, things he's done over the years in the BC Community.  And I actually did play for him, on more than one team lol... While he was working with BC Soccer he was also running the Canadian National Training Center out West so there was no escaping him.  You referenced the old boys network across the country holding people back in this thread, he was definitely apart of that.

 

Well it was obvious you are bitter, you wear it on your sleeve. 

I'd be bitter too if I was playing youth soccer for two decades.

It's logical to blame a coach you had for your own frustrations, especially when there are so few paths. But that is not the problem of Canada Soccer solely, since there are a lot of deluded kids with gullible parents out there who think the world of football missed out by not having them star in it.

Anyways, I'm from BC, and from the same area as Mike ended up settling (or so I believe).  I have a close personal friend who coached him, then played with him, as we are not too different in age. We regularly speak of him (I give him reports as my friend has gone sour on football).

I've met him and spoken to him as well, though in an odd circumstance when he was doing video work for the CSA. He was a modest guy, he's not overstated, he was not at all arrogant. 

I don't doubt that there were and are problems in the coaching system in Canada, but the guy was competent as our interim manager and is now achieving at a high level with a very modest national team.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, narduch said:

I don't hate Herdman. I just hate the myth making

I'm a Barça fan as many know. Well we've had coaches who won things for us who we, as fans, did not like. I am speaking like this because there was consensus, and I'm also a club member. 

In some cases we despised the guy coaching us. They were obviously competent, but that made no difference. Van Gaal was one of the most unlikeable, even while winning leagues for us. Luis Enrique was cocky as hell, he was unbearable at times and stupidly got into rows with press; he was also sexist. But at least in his case his edgy mentality left its imprint on the players (now it is different as he had a personal tragedy that has smoothed out some of the worst of it).

The two things are not incompatible, results and liking a coach, as long as you're not a robot. The only reason there is so much "consensus" on Herdman is because the relative success has been so sparse for so many years. I am sure when he's gone we'll still produce and we'll be able to relativise his way of doing things.

The latest being letting his players not train, go out at night and then boycott a match with thousands of paying fans waiting outside a stadium, which was a shitty thing to do and very unprofessional. 

[Watchmen]

With Herdman, I think it's a case that he arrived on the men's side at a time when a golden generation of players was arriving as well.  So, it becomes a bit more difficult to separate what part is his influence on the team's success and what part is just a generational talent of players arriving.

[Sal333]

11 hours ago, Watchmen said:

With Herdman, I think it's a case that he arrived on the men's side at a time when a golden generation of players was arriving as well.  So, it becomes a bit more difficult to separate what part is his influence on the team's success and what part is just a generational talent of players arriving.

Three points to counter that.

1) Ask the players on the men's team and see what they'll tell you. Actually what they've told us so far.

2) It's a funny coincident that the same thing happened on the women's side. Did we get generational players when he showed up? And he accomplished similar things with the Kiwi's women's team.

3) Maybe Italy's team should be a lesson to us all. No one disputes that Italians can play calcio but they've missed two WCs in a row. In every position except forwards the Italians have us beaten hands down. And yet we're in and they're out.

It goes without saying that if you give Herdman players from a small nation like Aruba, there isn't much he can do to drag them to the WC. He obviously needs the quality players. But Canada has had quality in the past (Forrest, De Rosario, Guzman) and we were unable to accomplish anything. 

I think what many posters deserve is a return of Floro,  Zambrano or Hart and see what they can accomplish with this "generational" talent.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Sal333

[SpecialK]

I know people hate Floro and yes he was frustrating and some of his decisions were mind boggling but overall he didn’t do that bad. All his games with close. We were basically one win away from making the Hex and we got a Tie in El Salvador. Floro did get Holiett and Arfield. Now was Floro past his prime when he came to Canada hell yes. But overall he wasn’t bad, now he wasn’t great either. The style of football Oz brought was attacking and fun and with Davies coming in . It really was the change we needed. 
 

the more I think about it, I think the CSA old guard were scared of change, scared of doing something different and stuck in their old ways and wanted part of the action. We saw it, Herdman’s first gold cup. I’m sure guys like Jason and others at the CSA told herdman you need to park the bus vs Mexico or we’ll get embarrassed this worked for us  before and what happen we looked bad but once Herdman got his balls back we attacked and we dominated. I wonder if is why Jason left the scene for a bit. This is all speculation no proof but when you look at it like that makes you wonder. 

I always wondered why no new coaches come in. Like Dale Mitchell, Stephen Hart, Colin Miller and even with Floro( minus his son),  All the staff around them were CSA people like assistants. Oz comes in brings his own people. Only one stays and currently he’s not with CSA anymore. 

[The Pessimist]

The question is: Would we have qualified for the World Cup with Zambrano in charge?

I would say Yes. Maybe not 1st in the Octagon but top 3 for sure.

 

Herdman got us to the World Cup by using the player's emotions. He instilled a feeling of brotherhood in the team and got them to believe in themselves. They ran their hearts out and got the results they needed.

 

I can only speculate but I think Zambrano would have used a more methodical approach. Perhaps better tactics. We saw in the last game with Honduras that the players failed to adapt to the playing conditions. The game required a different tactic. A more direct approach. Dribbling and short passes on a waterlogged field just didn't work. The players and the coach failed to adjust. They were still playing with emotions, not with their heads.

 

Getting results at the World Cup will require them to play with a combination of their hearts and their heads. 

 

Is Herdman the man to do that? I have my doubts.

 

[Watchmen]

3 hours ago, Sal333 said:

1) Ask the players on the men's team and see what they'll tell you. Actually what they've told us so far.

They love him, no doubt about that.  He's a great motivator.  But I have my doubts about his tactical abilities against better opponents.

3 hours ago, Sal333 said:

2) It's a funny coincident that the same thing happened on the women's side. Did we get generational players when he showed up? And he accomplished similar things with the Kiwi's women's team.

I mean, yes?  Maybe not generational, but I think he still had some better players start to come through.  Though I'll give him credit for getting more of the programs in place to better support and develop the women's program.

3 hours ago, Sal333 said:

3) Maybe Italy's team should be a lesson to us all. No one disputes that Italians can play calcio but they've missed two WCs in a row. In every position except forwards the Italians have us beaten hands down. And yet we're in and they're out.

Yes, the Italians have us beaten hands down in most positions.  If only they'd adopted our tactic of "playing in a much, much weaker confederation" they might have made the WC too.

 

3 hours ago, Sal333 said:

It goes without saying that if you give Herdman players from a small nation like Aruba, there isn't much he can do to drag them to the WC. He obviously needs the quality players. But Canada has had quality in the past (Forrest, De Rosario, Guzman) and we were unable to accomplish anything. 

I think what many posters deserve is a return of Floro,  Zambrano or Hart and see what they can accomplish with this "generational" talent.

In the case of Forrest they did do something - they won a Gold Cup.  And I don't think you can compare De Rosario and Guzman to Davies and David.  So yeah, I'd be fascinated to see what Zambrano or Hart could accomplish with this talent.

[LeoH037]

I was wondering how long it was going to take for the regulars to start bitching about Herdman again. 

[Colliedor]

5 hours ago, SpecialK said:

I know people hate Floro and yes he was frustrating and some of his decisions were mind boggling but overall he didn’t do that bad. All his games with close. We were basically one win away from making the Hex and we got a Tie in El Salvador. . 

Seriously? Going 2 gold cups without scoring a goal isn't bad?

 

Our games were close? Who cares! That was the exact excuse Floro used. Hell ya it was gonna be close. When you park the bus with 0 intention  to attack, it can get close.

 

And that El Salvador game, they were protesting. They put out their C team and Floro still decided to park the bus. 

 

So no, do not give that moron any credit. Guy was fucking awful and his "close results" don't tell you the whole story. Can't believe somebody is backing him up.

[Footyeh]

20 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Well it was obvious you are bitter, you wear it on your sleeve. 

I'd be bitter too if I was playing youth soccer for two decades.

It's logical to blame a coach you had for your own frustrations, especially when there are so few paths. But that is not the problem of Canada Soccer solely, since there are a lot of deluded kids with gullible parents out there who think the world of football missed out by not having them star in it.

Anyways, I'm from BC, and from the same area as Mike ended up settling (or so I believe).  I have a close personal friend who coached him, then played with him, as we are not too different in age. We regularly speak of him (I give him reports as my friend has gone sour on football).

I've met him and spoken to him as well, though in an odd circumstance when he was doing video work for the CSA. He was a modest guy, he's not overstated, he was not at all arrogant. 

I don't doubt that there were and are problems in the coaching system in Canada, but the guy was competent as our interim manager and is now achieving at a high level with a very modest national team.

You have a mutual friend with him, congrats.  I played for him, had friends play for him in the national team, coached kids that played under him and know many of his former colleagues in BC Soccer and the CSA.. But I must be wrong since you talked to him once or twice and thought he's nice.

I forgot you know everything, have no experience or no first hand knowledge, but your always right about everything football.  My bad.

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Footyeh

[Sal333]

6 hours ago, LeoH037 said:

I was wondering how long it was going to take for the regulars to start bitching about Herdman again. 

Start? I don't think they ever stopped. 

[LeoH037]

18 hours ago, Sal333 said:

Start? I don't think they ever stopped. 

I hope it wasn't that water polo loss to Honduras thats emboldened them

Edited June 27, 2022 by LeoH037

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, Footyeh said:

You have a mutual friend with him, congrats.  I played for him, had friends play for him in the national team, coached kids that played under him and know many of his former colleagues in BC Soccer and the CSA.. But I must be wrong since you talked to him once or twice and thought he's nice.

I forgot you know everything, have no experience or no first hand knowledge, but your always right about everything football.  My bad.

 

You're the one who said I'm not from BC. You also made up a few other lies about me to discredit my opinion.

At least I am honest: I've been around enough people in BC over the decades to know you are turning your personal vendetta into a generalised slander. 

When you have a weak character, like you do, it is not unusual to deflect and blame others. 

That is why he is where he is, coaching a national team and getting very good results for their level. Just because a sad sack like you did not get along does not take that, or his tenure with the National Team, away from him.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[kohanz]

Pro-tip: when you're involved in a disagreement about the judgment of someone's character (or any disagreement, really, but especially this kind), fitting as many petty personal attacks into your volleys as you can does nothing but discredit your ability to judge these traits.

Edited June 27, 2022 by kohanz

[Kent]

On 6/25/2022 at 11:51 AM, SpecialK said:

Some could say the women couldn’t handle a tough coach and needed a new age coach that would baby them and everything is happy planet world all day long. Also by the way herdman and women’s did nothing in the world cups and you could argue that the Olympic medals that we won should be to take with a grain of salt because not all top teams were there competing.

So Morace is a good coach but with bad results because the players can't handle her superior coaching. Herdman is a bad coach who just happens to get good results because the stupid players somehow buy his BS. Am I getting it right?

As for Herdman's women's team doing "nothing" in the World Cup, granted he had the benefit of having a home World Cup, but we won our group and round of 16 match before losing the quarter final. It is our best result in the last 4 World Cups, and 2nd best result in the World Cup ever (our best being in 2003 finishing in 4th place).

As for the Olympics, there is nothing about Herdman's 2 Olympics that need to be taken with a grain of salt in my opinion. The Olympics isn't at the same level as the World Cup due to it being less deep, but that is true of the Olympics before and after Herdman's time as well. 3rd in the Olympics shouldn't be considered as great as 3rd in the World Cup, but within the realm of the Olympics, no grains of salt needed. The grain of salt is actually in his (somewhat positive) World Cup result, since we were the hosts, which gives us an advantage over others.