Cavallini or Larin?

[CanadaFan123]

We have 2 matches in 4 days between Haiti and Chicago. They're both going to start one I feel.

[narduch]

1 minute ago, CanadaFan123 said:

We have 2 matches in 4 days between Haiti and Chicago. They're both going to start one I feel.

Ya. There has to be some squad rotation you have to think.

Do people think we will use the exact same line up as v. Suriname?

Knowing Herdman he may even change the formation.

[dyslexic nam]

6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

At the moment it is Larin.

I don't think he was as poor last match as people were making out in the game thread. He was involved in the buildups and connected well with David, in one instance creating a half yard for himself to get a shot off. He didn't score, but so what? He didn't flub any chances either.  

Interesting to see how sentiments change though. Larin is supposedly part of our "big 3", is being linked to Everton and West Ham after a Turkish double, and has clearly been favored by Herdman since March, but now we are questioning whether he's behind Cavallini again? On the basis of what, the Suriname match?

Don't get me wrong, I like Lucas and I expect they are going to keep battling it out for rightful place in our best eleven. At some point Cavallini will probably re-take the starting role too. It's just that I don't see the case in this situation.

If the case for Cavallini is match up specific, with the argument being he holds the ball up better away from home, then okay I think that's a reasoned approach. For me though Larin and David really have good chemistry going and I would only go with Cavallini to keep Larin fresh for the return leg (in addition to him potentially holding up the ball better away from home). 

For me, I was voting solely on the basis of the next match and I think Cav is probably way to go away in Haiti when conditions could be unforgiving.  Whether it is the wind, rain, hostile fans, etc, he just seems like the kind of guy who is more likely to turn it into useful aggression.  Plus his ability to muscle defenders may be handy because I think I recall Haiti having a fairly strong looking back line. None of that is a knock against Larin, who I agree has been good for us.  It is unfair to still saddle him with things he did (or didn’t do) a few years ago.  We seem to be a fickle group but have long memories when it comes to certain types of mistakes.  

[CanadaFan123]

8 minutes ago, narduch said:

Ya. There has to be some squad rotation you have to think.

Do people think we will use the exact same line up as v. Suriname?

Knowing Herdman he may even change the formation.

We may as well use depth to our advantage. You could tell that it worked to our advantage Tuesday night as Suriname dropped off after 30 minutes or so. 

[Kent]

I just dug up what I think is an equal parts interesting, frustrating, and scary stat.

Lucas Cavallini goals by host country:
USA - 12
Canada - 4

Cyle Larin goals by host country:
USA - 7
Canada - 4
Dominica - 1
Puerto Rico - 1

Larin has played 11 games outside of Canada/USA. Cavallini has played in only 2 (Saint Kitts, and some other game that I don't think was notable for any reasons that I can remember except it was Cavallini's debut. I think Hume had a great goal in that game.)

I know Cavallini has the South America and Mexico experience at the club level, but it's shocking a) Just how many of our games are in the USA, and b) that neither of these guys have been proven outside of Canada/USA with the national team.

[Obinna]

11 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

For me, I was voting solely on the basis of the next match and I think Cav is probably way to go away in Haiti when conditions could be unforgiving.  Whether it is the wind, rain, hostile fans, etc, he just seems like the kind of guy who is more likely to turn it into useful aggression.  Plus his ability to muscle defenders may be handy because I think I recall Haiti having a fairly strong looking back line. None of that is a knock against Larin, who I agree has been good for us.  It is unfair to still saddle him with things he did (or didn’t do) a few years ago.  We seem to be a fickle group but have long memories when it comes to certain types of mistakes.  

Yeah fair enough and I can easily be convinced to go with Cavallini on that basis. I believe the question was asked in the spirit of determining who is generally more important, but I get that people want to base it on the upcoming matches. That just goes to show how both are very important to the national team. 

[CanadaFan123]

With Cavallini being rested Tuesday and his experience playing in South America/Mexico I think he would be a good bet to start on Saturday. We'll also need a bull against the strong Haitian CBs to open up space for our superstars and he is the man. Also, he has already played and scored against Haiti so he checks all the boxes. 

[JohnnyFranchise]

45 minutes ago, narduch said:

Ya. There has to be some squad rotation you have to think.

Do people think we will use the exact same line up as v. Suriname?

Knowing Herdman he may even change the formation.

i would, but i doubt he does.

[Corazon]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

Ya. There has to be some squad rotation you have to think.

Do people think we will use the exact same line up as v. Suriname?

Knowing Herdman he may even change the formation.

For me, Cavallini & Larin are two of the few players that you could swap out without significant drop in quality at that position.  I would be in favour of them each starting a match.

[BearcatSA]

12 hours ago, frmr said:

Larin used to be horrible for Canada. He's a different player now. Cavallini still misses an awful lot of chances for Canada and his goals have dried up at club level.

Heck, Lewandowski's goals would dry up too, playing for the Caps

Larin's the better poacher, imo.

[BrennanFan]

The issue is not between Cavallini and Larin, but whether David and Larin can work together.  I feel like David and Larin read the game similarly and tend to want occupy the same spaces and make similar runs into the box.  In my view, Larin is David's natural substitute.  Cavallini is a foil for both of them, a very different style who would not get in anyone's way.  

This is a problem we have to face when we have so many quality attackers.  They can't all play.  

[baulderdash77]

I have a lot of faith in both players.  I expect they will both start a game and come off a bench in the other.  I also expect them to each score at least 1 time in the 2 games.

Both are very good players in the prime of their careers.  They both know it and root for each other and the team.  We should do the same.

[BearcatSA]

2 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

The issue is not between Cavallini and Larin, but whether David and Larin can work together.  I feel like David and Larin read the game similarly and tend to want occupy the same spaces and make similar runs into the box.  In my view, Larin is David's natural substitute.  Cavallini is a foil for both of them, a very different style who would not get in anyone's way.  

This is a problem we have to face when we have so many quality attackers.  They can't all play.  

Good points.

Everything boils down to having complementary players on the pitch to get the most out of your team's performance

[costarg]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

Do people think we will use the exact same line up as v. Suriname?

My changes would be: Kaye for Osorio, Vitoria for Henry and Cavallini for Larin.

However Herdman does like Henry, so maybe he keeps him for the physical side of things, but that in itself is very risky given Henry's history. 

Are Johnston and Kennedy up to speed on the CONCACAF dark arts?

[Shway]

1 minute ago, costarg said:

My changes would be: Kaye for Osorio, Vitoria for Henry and Cavallini for Larin.

However Herdman does like Henry, so maybe he keeps him for the physical side of things, but that in itself is very risky given Henry's history. 

Are Johnston and Kennedy up to speed on the CONCACAF dark arts?

None of our guys are...tbh.

Last game, we should’ve seen guys surrounding the ref, approaching/pushing haps for the dirty tackle on Laryea...which would’ve been his second yellow. 

Moments like that are all part of the dark arts that we’ll definitely see in the Octagonal from Mexico, Costa Rica, USA, and Honduras. 

[Hawkguy]

16 hours ago, frmr said:

Larin used to be horrible for Canada. He's a different player now. Cavallini still misses an awful lot of chances for Canada and his goals have dried up at club level.

Cav misses chances, sure.. but he's still scored twice as many goals for Canada over their past 14 caps. And against much better competition... Larin scored against Bermuda and that's as good as it gets recently. Cav has scored against Mexico and USA. Quite a step up in quality.

I also don't really give a shit about Cav's club numbers if he continues to score for Canada.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Hawkguy

[Corazon]

35 minutes ago, Hawkguy said:

Cav misses chances, sure.. but he's still scored twice as many goals for Canada over their past 14 caps. And against much better competition... Larin scored against Bermuda and that's as good as it gets recently. Cav has scored against Mexico and USA. Quite a step up in quality.

I also don't really give a shit about Cav's club numbers if he continues to score for Canada.

They're scoring at an almost identical rate of goals/minute for Canada over that period of time you are referring too.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Corazon

[Unnamed Trialist]

The reason you make changes is to have starters sitting on the bench chomping at the bit. Everyone understands what it means, if u come on as a sub you'll go hard. 

Next match, 2nd leg, no-one takes anything for granted. 

Need a squad of 20 odd players who all feel important

[DavemTFC]

11 hours ago, Kent said:

I just dug up what I think is an equal parts interesting, frustrating, and scary stat.

Lucas Cavallini goals by host country:
USA - 12
Canada - 4

Cyle Larin goals by host country:
USA - 7
Canada - 4
Dominica - 1
Puerto Rico - 1

Larin has played 11 games outside of Canada/USA. Cavallini has played in only 2 (Saint Kitts, and some other game that I don't think was notable for any reasons that I can remember except it was Cavallini's debut. I think Hume had a great goal in that game.)

I know Cavallini has the South America and Mexico experience at the club level, but it's shocking a) Just how many of our games are in the USA, and b) that neither of these guys have been proven outside of Canada/USA with the national team.

Makes me hope Cav starts in Haiti even more in this case. Sooner he gets real high-stakes CONCACAF away game experience the better. And though it's tough to totally prepare for, Cav seems the kind of guy who should be adaptable enough to handle a first-time situation like that, plus we know he has enough relevant experience at club level that you'd hope would transfer.

I'm actually much more confident in the NT's ability to get the job done against Haiti than I was against Suriname, in large part because of how easy our last win seemed. But this is a CONCACAF game in enemy territory and a lot of our players need any experience playing those they can get

[Hawkguy]

7 hours ago, Corazon said:

They're scoring at an almost identical rate of goals/minute for Canada over that period of time you are referring too.

I really hate when people post bullshit. It's fine if you think Larin is the better option for Canada or the better striker. You're allowed to have that opinion. 

But to make bullshit up is just ridiculous and makes you look bad. 

Over their past 14 caps each, the time frame I referred too... Larin has scored 8 goals in 659 minutes compared to Cavallini at 16 goals in 787 minutes. In what world is that almost identical?

To put it commonly used numbers; over that time frame Larin is scoring 1.09 goals per 90 while Cavallini is scoring 1.83 goals per 90 (while scoring against better teams). Again... how is that even close?

If you wanted to "predict" via those numbers - if Larin and Cavallini played every minute in their next 14 games; Larin would score 15 goals to Cavallini's 26. 

[LeoH037]

meh, I'm happy with either in front tbh, I prefer Larin but that's just cause I watch him play more (I'll watch maybe 1-2 Whitecaps games year if at all, and tend to catch most Besiktas games), but in the end, I could not care less who starts, they are both capable.

I'd also argue Cavallini fairs the same against Suriname if he had started instead of Larin, the team wasn't creating much in that first half (it wasn't a great collective performance to start really). Things didn't start to really open up till the 2nd half, hell if anything, you could argue Cavallini should have scored in a more open game against a tired, older, and demoralized Suriname backline.. sure he got a penalty, but that first touch on the ball was not good, and if it weren't for the keeper taking him down, that play goes nowhere. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by LeoH037

[PiedPilko]

We're arguing about the wrong thing... if you have a formation where a goalscorer as good as Larin isn't being deployed right, then that's a problem with the formation. David-Larin isn't gonna work up front, because neither are capable of making space for each other.  It should be fine against Haiti, but a  4-2-3-1 that gets Cava, Larin and David on the field is the only way we're gonna generate enough chances against bigger teams. Cavallini is the better pure 9, but if deployed correctly, Larin will score at a higher level. 

 

If Larin makes that move to EPL, this just isn't up for discussion.

Edited June 11, 2021 by PiedPilko

[frmr]

1 minute ago, PiedPilko said:

We're arguing about the wrong thing... if you have a formation where a goalscorer as good as Larin isn't being deployed right, then that's a problem with the formation. David-Larin isn't gonna work up front.  It should be fine against Haiti, but a  4-2-3-1 that gets Cava, Larin and David on the field is the only way we're gonna generate enough chances against bigger teams. Cavallini is the better pure 9, but if deployed correctly, Larin will score at a higher level. 

 

If Larin makes that move to EPL, this just isn't up for discussion.

Agreed. Larin isn't a 9, that's pretty much been established now. He is someone who can score 20+ goals in Europe though when deployed properly. Cav is a 9, Larin is a winger or false 9, David is a 9, false 9, or 10.

I agree Cav vs Larin isn't the most relevant discussion.

[kacbru]

3 hours ago, PiedPilko said:

If Larin makes that move to EPL, this just isn't up for discussion.

Sorry, I am not sure of your intention, but this is one of my pet peeves - if Larin signs with Man City tomorrow, he doesn't magically become a different or better player. 

[PiedPilko]

4 hours ago, kacbru said:

Sorry, I am not sure of your intention, but this is one of my pet peeves - if Larin signs with Man City tomorrow, he doesn't magically become a different or better player. 

What I mean is, no one will treat Larin like he's just a mediocre striker rather than a good goalscoring winger if he makes that move. People are selling him short because they haven't watched him dominate at Besiktas. I think it's sad that we want to sit him after 1 bad game in a position that doesn't suit him. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by PiedPilko