Cuba vs Canada (on Grand Cayman island) Tuesday, Sept 10th - 7:15pm EST

[Ansem]

I'm surprised or shocked at Arfield coming off the bench talk. He's better than both Kaye and Osorio. 

It was obvious in the Gold Cup when he organized the midfield 

[LeoH037]

alright, this game is over, someone start up the Canada vs USA thread now!

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

I'm surprised or shocked at Arfield coming off the bench talk. He's better than both Kaye and Osorio. 

It was obvious in the Gold Cup when he organized the midfield 

The best players don't always make the best team. Arfield may be better than Kaye and Osorio, but what combination of players is best for the team against the USA?

Maybe Cuba was really bad, Kaye-Oso simply looked fantastic as a pair. 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I recall Kaye and Arfield starting together against Haiti and that duo was not as good as Kaye-Oso.

Maybe Haiti is just better (they are) and maybe Kaye had a knock (he did), but I really liked what I saw against Cuba from them. Hard for me to let go of that.

Furthermore, perhaps the MLS guys should be the ones to have a crack at the Americans from the start.

Or, maybe we do want to start the less familiar player - Arfield, who is a high quality swiss Army knife at the concacaf level. 

Hard choices to be made...

Edited September 12, 2019 by Obinna

[CanadaFan123]

Arfield is the current captain so I don’t see him not starting.  He’s the best midfielder in Scotland and has been an absolute stud for us.  Has he ever had a bad match for Canada?  He’s clearly a class ahead of everyone except Hutchinson and his resume reflects that.

We need to step out of the MLS bubble sometimes.  Who else could do what he has done club wise? 

[SkuseisLoose]

There is no hard choice to make. While you’re right sometime a better overall player doesn’t necessarily make for a better overall team. Arfield is our best midfielder at the moment, and in my opinion that isn’t up to debate. You’ve watched one game of Kaye and Osorio together and decided that it was somehow better than when Osorio and Arfield were together in the gold cup vs Cuba.

[Big_M]

osorio over arfield..had a nice laugh..probably going back to a backup spot in toronto

[canadafan101]

our front 6 is clear as day after the last couple months:

Cavallini  (Larin, Akindele bench)

Davies----David----Hoilett    (Millar, Osorio, Tabla bench)

Kaye-------Arfield  (Piette, Johnson, Teibert bench) Assuming Hutchinson is retired

[costarg]

57 minutes ago, canadafan101 said:

our front 6 is clear as day after the last couple months:

Cavallini  (Larin, Akindele bench)

Davies----David----Hoilett    (Millar, Osorio, Tabla bench)

Kaye-------Arfield  (Piette, Johnson, Teibert bench) Assuming Hutchinson is retired

Except I feel Kaye and Arfield aren't really at their best as defensive mids.  I feel they'll, along with David, be stepping all over each others toes in a 4-2-3-1.  I prefer pushing David a little further up (4-4-2) and have Arfield and Kaye rotate defensive/offensive duties.   

[BrennanFan]

I see a lot of 4-2-3-1 formations being suggested, but that's just not how we've been setting up all year. As much as it would allow us to play Davies, David, Hoilett and Cav in attacking positions, I just don't see us moving away from the 4-3-3 formation we've been using this whole time under Herdman.

As we saw against Cuba, when we defend, Osorio starts pressing the ball like crazy and our wingers and Kaye drop to join Piette in a line of 4.  When we transition back to attacking, it can seem like our front 6 are in a 2-3-1 but it's really just a fluid 4-3-3.

Osorio starts a lot under Herdman because he plays his role to perfection. Kaye is not a like for like replacement for Osorio, I think that is Tiebert (as against St. Kitts away) or Wotherspoon (Cuba away).

Same goes for David. There's no way he is going to play in our midfield. He has not yet played there for us and we're not going to start that now. We need him closer to goal when we have the ball.  

Kaye has to sit in favour of Arfield. Piette is our defensive mid as Atiba and Eustaquio are coming off injuries.

Midfield:

-------- Osorio ---------- Arfield

------------------- Piette

[apbsmith]

35 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

I see a lot of 4-2-3-1 formations being suggested, but that's just not how we've been setting up all year. As much as it would allow us to play Davies, David, Hoilett and Cav in attacking positions, I just don't see us moving away from the 4-3-3 formation we've been using this whole time under Herdman.

 

Maybe I was blind but I could have sworn from watching the game in the stands we played a 4-2-3-1 vs Cuba ? As per me watching live and as per the MLS website?

Yes, I know it's Cuba but I really liked what I saw in that formation. I think we can play that same formation vs USA at home. 

I also like 2 defensive mids against the US, the reality is our backline is not quite there yet and needs the support ( as was evident vs Haiti.) As a result some good midfielders will be left off and yes Arfield will do just fine as DM that can still push forward when available anyways. 

Here is the MLS site screenshot.

 

[apbsmith]

For what it's worth I thought both Piette and Kaye had outstanding games vs Cuba at home. There was a massive drop in the middle in Cuba away.

[to70]

20 minutes ago, apbsmith said:

Maybe I was blind but I could have sworn from watching the game in the stands we played a 4-2-3-1 vs Cuba ? As per me watching live and as per the MLS website?

Yes, I know it's Cuba but I really liked what I saw in that formation. I think we can play that same formation vs USA at home. 

I also like 2 defensive mids against the US, the reality is our backline is not quite there yet and needs the support ( as was evident vs Haiti.) As a result some good midfielders will be left off and yes Arfield will do just fine as DM that can still push forward when available anyways. 

Here is the MLS site screenshot.

 

My gut feeling tells me that Herdman will move Kaye to LB for the US game(s) and Arfield in midfield

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Arfield is the current captain so I don’t see him not starting.  He’s the best midfielder in Scotland and has been an absolute stud for us.  Has he ever had a bad match for Canada?  He’s clearly a class ahead of everyone except Hutchinson and his resume reflects that.

We need to step out of the MLS bubble sometimes.  Who else could do what he has done club wise? 

No Arfield has never been bad for Canada. Yes he is one of the top midfielders in Scotland. Yes he has a very solid resume at club level.

The only thing you point that was relevant is that Arfield is the "captain". That is a very good point. Hard to sit your captain. He almost certainly starts.

Someone mentioned Kaye at left back.

This may be the right solution. Osorio gets paired with Arfield and LB gets stronger, if you rate Kaye as a better LB than Adekugbe.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Obinna

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, apbsmith said:

Maybe I was blind but I could have sworn from watching the game in the stands we played a 4-2-3-1 vs Cuba ? As per me watching live and as per the MLS website?

Yes, I know it's Cuba but I really liked what I saw in that formation. I think we can play that same formation vs USA at home. 

I also like 2 defensive mids against the US, the reality is our backline is not quite there yet and needs the support ( as was evident vs Haiti.) As a result some good midfielders will be left off and yes Arfield will do just fine as DM that can still push forward when available anyways. 

Here is the MLS site screenshot.

 

This is how the lineup was announced, but the way we played did not reflect that. Osorio and Kaye played as dual 8's as far as I recall. Piette was rarely found ahead of Kaye and Osorio.

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, canadafan101 said:

our front 6 is clear as day after the last couple months:

Cavallini  (Larin, Akindele bench)

Davies----David----Hoilett    (Millar, Osorio, Tabla bench)

Kaye-------Arfield  (Piette, Johnson, Teibert bench) Assuming Hutchinson is retired

David is not going to play in the midfield:

Davies---Cavallini/David---Hoilett/David

Kaye---Piette/Hutchinson--Arfield/Osorio

[apbsmith]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

This is how the lineup was announced, but the way we played did not reflect that. Osorio and Kaye played as dual 8's as far as I recall. Piette was rarely found ahead of Kaye and Osorio.

Hhhmmm good point, as I do agree, Kaye got forward quite a bit, but it did look like Oso was playing much more advanced.

Kaye often drifted back beside Piette to help with the cycle and switches.

Another thing I noticed was Cuba's defensive line was so crazy high at BMO, so it did look pretty jammed up in the middle.  Don't know why you play such a high defensive line vs our speed but hey that's on them and good for our lads swinging it wide and braking them down.

[BrennanFan]

15 minutes ago, Obinna said:

David is not going to play in the midfield:

Davies---Cavallini/David---Hoilett/David

Kaye---Piette/Hutchinson--Arfield/Osorio

David must start of course.  

I don't think you can bench the guy who just scored a hat trick.

If Herdman moves Davies to LB, and we lose, Herdman will be crucified by supporters and media alike.

I think Cavallini has to come off the bench (can't believe I just typed that). However, Davies at LB is something that can and should be considered.

Davies --- David --- Hoilett

-------- Oso -------- Arfield

--------------- Piette

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

David must start of course.  

I don't think you can bench the guy who just scored a hat trick.

If Herdman moves Davies to LB, and we lose, Herdman will be crucified by supporters and media alike.

I think Cavallini has to come off the bench (can't believe I just typed that). However, Davies at LB is something that can and should be considered.

Davies --- David --- Hoilett

-------- Oso -------- Arfield

--------------- Piette

For sure. David and Davies are undropable. And I really like David as a 9.

[canadafan101]

33 minutes ago, Obinna said:

David is not going to play in the midfield:

Davies---Cavallini/David---Hoilett/David

Kaye---Piette/Hutchinson--Arfield/Osorio

My formation has David as the CAM, but regardless, put him up top in a 4-4-2 or up top in a 4-3-3 with Hoilett it doesn't matter. Those are my front 6 in any exact formation Canada plays. We're all talking very similar formations, I don't like getting caught up in exact roles

To clarify our front 6 should include: Cavallini, David, Davies, Hoilett, Kaye, Arfield

[Obinna]

19 minutes ago, canadafan101 said:

My formation has David as the CAM, but regardless, put him up top in a 4-4-2 or up top in a 4-3-3 with Hoilett it doesn't matter. Those are my front 6 in any exact formation Canada plays. We're all talking very similar formations, I don't like getting caught up in exact roles

To clarify our front 6 should include: Cavallini, David, Davies, Hoilett, Kaye, Arfield

Gotcha. I see where you are coming from. That is arguably the most talented front 6 we have.

For me that front 6 is too unbalanced without 1 of Piette, Hutchinson or Eustaquio - but I can't argue about the level of talent. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Obinna

[Blackdude]

            Cavallini
Davies                       David
          Arfield    Kaye
Miller         Piette      Layrea
         Cornelius    Vitória
                       Borjan
 

Bench: Crépeau, St. Clair, Adekugbe, Brault-Guillard, Straith, James, Eustaquio, Teibert, Osorio, Hoilett, Millar, Akindele

 

I feel like Hoilett is a better option off the bench. I know he scored a hat trick against Cuba and the team was worse without him, but I still think that this is our stronger front three.

I could listen to changes in our midfield. I could see Eustáquio or Hutchinson starting instead of Kaye or Piette or Osorio instead of Arfield, but anything else would surprise me. Still, both haven't played this season, so it's hard to pencil them in my eleven. Hutchinson comes in the squad for Teibert if he's available, but right now, it's hard for me to put him in knowing his injury.

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Blackdude

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

No Arfield has never been bad for Canada.

Funnily enough, the only game where I remember him playing poorly was the U.S Virgin Islands game. He made some bad passes and looked tired. If he had been at his best we would have won 10-0.

[Kent]

On 9/10/2019 at 11:28 PM, Colliedor said:

We all know players like Wotherspoon isn't going to be a regular starter for us, or even a consistent back up. Wasted start.

We are all going to feel like jerks when it's revealed to us that this match was actually Wotherspoon's testimonial match.

[Gian-Luca]

These two interviews are from the TFC site but they are mostly focused on the national team performances of Osorio & Laryea, respectively in the last two matches. Osorio somewhat takes the high road when asked about how unfair the qualifying process is, which actually I like because it's the fans who need to be whining and making excuses ahead of time, not the players:

https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2019/09/13/training-sound-jonathan-osorio-september-13-2019?autoplay=true

https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2019/09/13/training-sound-richie-laryea-september-13-2019?autoplay=true

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Are people really arguing vehemently about the difference between 4231 and 433? They are variations on the same theme tactically (235 -> 424 -> 442 -> 352 -> 433/4231 was roughly the historical development of prevailing orthodoxy since WWII). The game is fluid enough that there will often be little practical difference between a 4231 and a 433 making it possible to see what you want to see.