Tom Holmes

[jonovision]

3 minutes ago, costarg said:

I have no issues whatsoever.  If England, France and Italy do it every chance they get and don't hesitate, why the hell should we?  If i'm being honest, I find it some what arrogant coming from a Canadian.  Who are we to question and challenge the norm in global soccer?

I might be the only dumb guy that thinks like this, but a lot of the norms in global soccer are stupid.

[costarg]

2 minutes ago, jonovision said:

I might be the only dumb guy that thinks like this, but a lot of the norms in global soccer are stupid.

We're on the same page buddy.  I don't agree with it either.  But we don't have the luxury to ignore the rules and loopholes. 

Now, If it were hockey, then Team Canada could set a precedence and say "we don't need to".

[dyslexic nam]

54 minutes ago, jonovision said:

I might be the only dumb guy that thinks like this, but a lot of the norms in global soccer are stupid.

On a very basic level I agree. I want us to field a competitive team of Canadians that  belt out the anthem and bleed maple syrup.

But the fact remains that this guy is a young, talented CB playing probably at a level that is on par with, or better than, all of our current pool of CBs - two of whom are getting older and likely won’t be around next cycle.   And we do not have many solid prospects coming up - and the one we do have (Smith) may or may not actually be a CDM.   

If I am recalling correctly, Arfield was for all intents and purposes Scottish when we capped him.  Hoilett is English, even if he has solid ties to the country.  So for me, if Holmes is eligible he is eligible and we should give him a look.  Full stop. Not my ideal scenario but I am willing to play the game - especially given the circumstances.   Make no mistake, if Vitoria gets injured in the hype up to the WC, we are in a fairly desperate situation.  

Edited September 11, 2022 by dyslexic nam

[CanadaFan123]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

On a very basic level I agree. I was to field a competitive team of Canadians that  belt out the anthem and bleed maple syrup.

But the fact remains that this guy is a young, talented CB playing probably at a level that is on par with, or better than, all of our current pool of CBs - two of whom are getting older and likely won’t be around next cycle.   And we do not have many solid prospects coming up - and the one we do have (Smith) may or may not actually be a CDM.   

If I am recalling correctly, Arfield was for all intents and purposes Scottish when we capped him.  Hoilett is English, even if he has solid ties to the country.  So for me, if Holmes is eligible he is eligible and we should give him a look.  Full stop. Not my ideal scenario but I am willing to play the game - especially given the circumstances.   Make no mistake, if Vitoria gets injured in the hype up to the WC, we are in a fairly desperate situation.  

Uh what? Hoilett is Brampton born and bred. Do you mean Ugbo? 

Edited September 11, 2022 by CanadaFan123

[dyslexic nam]

1 minute ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Uh what? Hoilett is Brampton born and bred. Do you mean Ugbo? 

Sorry - my bad.  I was thinking he moved over a lot younger than he apparently did.  And given the fact that he held out for an England call up I guess I incorrectly filled in the blanks.  The accent may have thrown me as well.  

[Jack1997]

40 minutes ago, MauditYvon said:

If he can play for us, and assuming we call 3 right-footed CBs, you have to make a choice between : Vitoria, Johnston, Waterman, Henry and Holmes. Heartbreaking for the 2 scratched. Pretty sure Herdman will call Henry. Big problem.

Not really Johnston isn’t really a CB unless it’s a back 3 so you can take    3 GK

Borjan, Crepau, St.Clair

3 FB

Adekugbe(LB), Laryea (RB), Johnston(RB)

6 CB

Miller(L), Kennedy(L), Cornelius(L), Vitoria(R), Holmes (R), Henry(R)

6 CM

Eustaqio, Osorio, Kaye, Hutchinson, Piette, Kone

5 Wingers 

Buchanan(R), Davies(L), Hoilett (L), Millar(L), Corbenau (R)

3 ST

David, Larin, Ugbo

Thats 26 right there and you have to realize people can play other positions that there not listed on too like Johnston can play ORCB, Davies and Buchanan can play FB and  Corbenau can play at striker I think this is a very realistic roster Maybe Cavalini over Corbenau and if Holmes can go waterman can.

 

[prairiecanuck]

6 minutes ago, Jack1997 said:

Not really Johnston isn’t really a CB unless it’s a back 3 so you can take    3 GK

Borjan, Crepau, St.Clair

3 FB

Adekugbe(LB), Laryea (RB), Johnston(RB)

6 CB

Miller(L), Kennedy(L), Cornelius(L), Vitoria(R), Holmes (R), Henry(R)

6 CM

Eustaqio, Osorio, Kaye, Hutchinson, Piette, Kone

5 Wingers 

Buchanan(R), Davies(L), Hoilett (L), Millar(L), Corbenau (R)

3 ST

David, Larin, Ugbo

Thats 26 right there and you have to realize people can play other positions that there not listed on too like Johnston can play ORCB, Davies and Buchanan can play FB and  Corbenau can play at striker I think this is a very realistic roster Maybe Cavalini over Corbenau and if Holmes can go waterman can.

 

I feel like you'd have to include Koleosho if he was willing.  Cornelius or Henry getted bumped for me.  5 CBs and an extra winger because Koleosho is that duel national you're chasing.  

[frmr]

Damn I got excited.

[DeRo_Is_King]

43 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

On a very basic level I agree. I was to field a competitive team of Canadians that  belt out the anthem and bleed maple syrup.

But the fact remains that this guy is a young, talented CB playing probably at a level that is on par with, or better than, all of our current pool of CBs - two of whom are getting older and likely won’t be around next cycle.   And we do not have many solid prospects coming up - and the one we do have (Smith) may or may not actually be a CDM.   

If I am recalling correctly, Arfield was for all intents and purposes Scottish when we capped him.  Hoilett is English, even if he has solid ties to the country.  So for me, if Holmes is eligible he is eligible and we should give him a look.  Full stop. Not my ideal scenario but I am willing to play the game - especially given the circumstances.   Make no mistake, if Vitoria gets injured in the hype up to the WC, we are in a fairly desperate situation.  

I agree with this. We are in no position to refuse talent because they weren't born here, have the slightest of ties to Canada or what have you. We have always welcomed the most talented, as long as they've been eligible and wanted to represent Canada. The Hoilett error is really minor.

[Approve My Account Pls]

3 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

On a very basic level I agree. I want us to field a competitive team of Canadians that  belt out the anthem and bleed maple syrup.

But the fact remains that this guy is a young, talented CB playing probably at a level that is on par with, or better than, all of our current pool of CBs - two of whom are getting older and likely won’t be around next cycle.   And we do not have many solid prospects coming up - and the one we do have (Smith) may or may not actually be a CDM.   

If I am recalling correctly, Arfield was for all intents and purposes Scottish when we capped him.  Hoilett is English, even if he has solid ties to the country.  So for me, if Holmes is eligible he is eligible and we should give him a look.  Full stop. Not my ideal scenario but I am willing to play the game - especially given the circumstances.   Make no mistake, if Vitoria gets injured in the hype up to the WC, we are in a fairly desperate situation.  

100% this. We have half the board still trying to convince themselves Arfield will come out of retirement. I guarantee half the people being laissez faire about Holmes would be jumping at the opportunity to cap tie Tomori if that was still an option... We have a kid here who may be Canadian eligible and seems to have an interest in representing us, we would be stupid to turn that away

[Bison44]

Probable the laissez faire attitude some of us have about Holmes is based on the chance his eligibility could be total BS.  How many times have we gotten excited about this guy or that from europe with no past ties to the CDN program except for a story about a CDN gramma?  Maybe it will all work out, the paperwork will be found and with current rules he will be eligible...GREAT!!  Same as when Arfield, Wotherspoon or Ugbo sort of fell into our laps as developed professionals.  I'm not going to hold my breath though.  

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

I have no issues whatsoever.  If England, France and Italy do it every chance they get and don't hesitate, why the hell should we?  If i'm being honest, I find it some what arrogant coming from a Canadian.  Who are we to question and challenge the norm in global soccer?

I am biased and we as Canadians have some specific trauma(s), but I would point out that BT's worst commentator - who will not be named - had his last England cap almost 15 years ago and his first over 20.  My point is that its been a while since England poached someone who grew up and certainly recieved a lot of football education abroad.  Sterling is probably the oldest of the recent call ups, he was 5 when came from Jamaica, Tomori was 1, as was Guehi, the ultimately reversed attempt - Zaha - was 4.  I guess you could count Nathaniel Chalobah, who was 7.   I would put those in a different category than say Deigo Costa or West Ham's recent signing Emerson.  So, I would take slight issue with saying they do it every chance they get. 

Overall, you play the rules as written.  We have a lot going against us in Canadian football, I will take an legal advantage we can find. 

 

[dyslexic nam]

51 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I am biased and we as Canadians have some specific trauma(s), but I would point out that BT's worst commentator - who will not be named - had his last England cap almost 15 years ago and his first over 20.  My point is that its been a while since England poached someone who grew up and certainly recieved a lot of football education abroad.  Sterling is probably the oldest of the recent call ups, he was 5 when came from Jamaica, Tomori was 1, as was Guehi, the ultimately reversed attempt - Zaha - was 4.  I guess you could count Nathaniel Chalobah, who was 7.   I would put those in a different category than say Deigo Costa or West Ham's recent signing Emerson.  So, I would take slight issue with saying they do it every chance they get. 

Overall, you play the rules as written.  We have a lot going against us in Canadian football, I will take an legal advantage we can find. 

 

They did want to get Musiala but he chose Germany.  

But generally I agree - it doesn’t seem like they do it a lot.  Having said that, they capped Tomori and then promptly ignored  him so that one seemed a bit cynical in the way it was executed.  
 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

They did want to get Musiala but he chose Germany.  

But generally I agree - it doesn’t seem like they do it a lot.  Having said that, they capped Tomori and then promptly ignored  him so that one seemed a bit cynical in the way it was executed.  
 

Fair enough.  

Tomori's situation is seen in England (at least by non-big club supporters) as mostly lazy big club bias.  He was playing for Chelsea regularly when he got his first call. He soon wasn't and then you have to do a lot more at a foreign club to get the same chance.  At least that's the speculation.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Fair enough.  

Tomori's situation is seen in England (at least by non-big club supporters) as mostly lazy big club bias.  He was playing for Chelsea regularly when he got his first call. He soon wasn't and then you have to do a lot more at a foreign club to get the same chance.  At least that's the speculation.

Tomori was the most cynical of all caps, undefendable.  Southgate knew Nigeria and Canada were knocking, he claimed he wouldn't be attempting to cap-tie him and another during the same window and claimed it was on merit.  And yet he brought on Tomori on the 84th minute of a match they were winning by four goals.  If I remember correctly, I think the other guy refused to get on the pitch.  But my memory is a little foggy on that one. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

Tomori was the most cynical of all caps, undefendable.  Southgate knew Nigeria and Canada were knocking, he claimed he wouldn't be attempting to cap-tie him and another during the same window and claimed it was on merit.  And yet he brought on Tomori on the 84th minute of a match they were winning by four goals.  If I remember correctly, I think the other guy refused to get on the pitch.  But my memory is a little foggy on that one. 

I don't like  it and hate that he didn't come to West Ham on loan. But of course it's defendable.  He's a player that spend the vast majority of his life in England and learned football there. He was playing at a  level many others were when they received their first call and in hindsight, he is good enough to play for them for them now.  That is what you do with young players  much of the time, introduce them gradually. I don't have to like it to see there are reasons beyond them legal working the rules to keep a player that learned the game there. 

Edit after checking something: Someone like Harvey Barnes who is the same age, got 14 minutes around the same time but hasn't played since. For what I am aware, he couldn't play for anyone else. Or James Madison who got 34'. Or Lewis Cook who got 20'.

Maybe cynical but also with good reasons for me, would have been capping someone like Michail Antonio, when he was near top of the English-born Premier League scoring at some points. 

Again I just can't see saying they do it at every chance. 

(If something is off with Tomori it's that he hasn't got more chances since.  But managers have their favourites and again you have a hard time if you move away from England.)

Edited September 12, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Sal333]

8 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

On a very basic level I agree. I want us to field a competitive team of Canadians that  belt out the anthem and bleed maple syrup.

 

What if they're pitch deaf and bleed ordinary blood?

[prairiecanuck]

2 hours ago, costarg said:

Tomori was the most cynical of all caps, undefendable.  Southgate knew Nigeria and Canada were knocking, he claimed he wouldn't be attempting to cap-tie him and another during the same window and claimed it was on merit.  And yet he brought on Tomori on the 84th minute of a match they were winning by four goals.  If I remember correctly, I think the other guy refused to get on the pitch.  But my memory is a little foggy on that one. 

Tomori also started in Nations league action against Italy in June.  He's still a young player and a very quality player as well.  I think he will get playing time with England over the coming years.  I don't think he's a cap and forget type player. 

[Floortom]

6 minutes ago, prairiecanuck said:

Tomori also started in Nations league action against Italy in June.  He's still a young player and a very quality player as well.  I think he will get playing time with England over the coming years.  I don't think he's a cap and forget type player. 

Agreed. I have no idea why people act like England is done with him. I think he has a very good chance of making the roster for Qatar

[yomurphy1]

43 minutes ago, Floortom said:

Agreed. I have no idea why people act like England is done with him. I think he has a very good chance of making the roster for Qatar

My read was more a cynical cap tie before he was ready circa 2019. That said, he's a damn good defender and deserves at this point to be on the squad. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

28 minutes ago, yomurphy1 said:

My read was more a cynical cap tie before he was ready circa 2019. That said, he's a damn good defender and deserves at this point to be on the squad. 

Part of my point was that England calls a lot of players who aren't ready to contribute at the moment but might be someday.  Some of them are eligible for other nations, a lot are not. Some more names who have got a cap and did not ever get to that level in fairly recent times and I remember playing - Carl Jenkinson (ex-West Ham loanee), Ryan Shawcross, Stephen Caulker, Jay Rodriguez, Dominic Solanke etc.  Mason Greenwood's cap might have been a bit cyncial but he showed promise for Man U.  Dean Henderson probably wasn't ready when he got his but I think could be soon.  The James Justin kid who got his cap this summer would be another in my opinion.

We are rightly hyper-observant of Tomori but I don't think calling players like him is rare. 

Edited September 12, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[The Real Marc]

There is nothing cynical about calling up players that are eligible for your country and willing to play. How else can you evaluate them? They are smart, they know the pros, cons, opportunities, risks.

[Kadenge]

9 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Part of my point was that England calls a lot of players who aren't ready to contribute at the moment but might be someday.  Some of them are eligible for other nations, a lot are not. Some more names who have got a cap and did not ever get to that level in fairly recent times and I remember playing - Carl Jenkinson (ex-West Ham loanee), Ryan Shawcross, Stephen Caulker, Jay Rodriguez, Dominic Solanke etc.  Mason Greenwood's cap might have been a bit cyncial but he showed promise for Man U.  Dean Henderson probably wasn't ready when he got his but I think could be soon.  The James Justin kid who got his cap this summer would be another in my opinion.

We are rightly hyper-observant of Tomori but I don't think calling players like him is rare. 

Not a kid but Ivan Toney deserves a call up no?

[dyslexic nam]

2 hours ago, The Real Marc said:

There is nothing cynical about calling up players that are eligible for your country and willing to play. How else can you evaluate them? They are smart, they know the pros, cons, opportunities, risks.

I think capping someone in the final 5 minutes in a game that is already settled is pretty cynical.   You don’t have any basis to evaluate them and don’t learn anything that you couldn’t glean from having them simply participate in a camp.  

This isn’t to say that anyone is being tricked into a mistaken commitment. But it does put the player in the position that they have to either refuse a call up (or to take the field) or they can have their international options severely limited.

And to be peefactly clear, I get why it is done and I would not be opposed to is strategically doing it with some young prospects.  It just sucks when it happens to us - especially in key areas of need when the person lost would have potentially been a massive boost for the program.  Tomori is the one that really hurts because England ignored him for an extended period immediately after capping him and he would have been such a huge addition to our player pool (and may or may not have an impact in the England squad). 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by dyslexic nam

[InglewoodJack]

I think there's less excitement about Holmes because he hasn't said much about his eligibility publicly, and he's not a flashy young phenom who is scoring goals or making beautiful plays every week, he's just a player who plays a position we're sorely lacking in, in a league that isn't a sexy top 5 league, but one of the more competitive leagues our players play in.

I also don't see how it's cynical for England to captie guys like that. Barring the odd German-English dual nationals, or Spanish-English or whatever, England isn't a team that is competing to secure its players like a Canada or US, or any number of African countries. They're a major institution that expects to contend for the world cup, for the Euros, for every major tournament they play in, so with that in mind, I see their capping less as a way to secure players and more of a way to build a pipeline and get as many guys in the picture as early as possible so they can develop their career as part of an NT. Whereas in Canada, our players and prospects are all in the drivers seat (see: kid playing in the serbian league, the 16th best league in the world, and his dad running his mouth on twitter like Canada owes him a favour), no player for England is bigger than England, and their proposition isn't "help us build something and be a part of a bright future", it's "chase the privilege of wearing the England shirt, take it or leave it".

Also RE: calling in players before they've "earned it"- teams like England's players play more games than a team like Canada. If pretty much every player on our squad was playing Champions League or Europa football and all these extra matches, and we had a lot of talented young future prospects playing in leagues like the premier league, we'd be calling in a lot more guys at a much younger age.