Tom Holmes

[El Diego]

Having a 'Canadian' grandparent is not sufficient (or necessary) to be eligible for a country. I am starting to see how Wheeler got so annoyed...

[Bertuzzi44]

4 hours ago, SpecialK said:

The question is who does he replace? 

This is the wrong way to think about it in my opinion. It's about adding depth to the squad, and bringing in talented players who in the future (near or far) might be able to play a role, be it in our best XI or as a squad player or depth. 

 

[SpecialK]

3 hours ago, El Diego said:

Having a 'Canadian' grandparent is not sufficient (or necessary) to be eligible for a country. I am starting to see how Wheeler got so annoyed...

not true - grandparents count - wheeler is a CSA kiss ass. 
 

Any player who refers to art. 5 par. 1[note 1] to assume a new nationality and who has not played international football [in a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition of any category or any type of football] shall be eligible to play for the new representative team only if he fulfils one of the following conditions:
a) He was born on the territory of the relevant association;
b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant association;
c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant association;
d) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant association.

— FIFA.com

 

[El Diego]

1 hour ago, SpecialK said:

not true - grandparents count - wheeler is a CSA kiss ass. 
 

Any player who refers to art. 5 par. 1[note 1] to assume a new nationality and who has not played international football [in a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition of any category or any type of football] shall be eligible to play for the new representative team only if he fulfils one of the following conditions:
a) He was born on the territory of the relevant association;
b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant association;
c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant association;
d) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant association.

— FIFA.com

 

I'm not saying it is not relevant, I am saying that having a Canadian grandparent alone is not enough to qualify you and it is not the only way to qualify you. This has already been discussed previously in the thread, I don't know why we keep asking the same questions and relaying the same misinformation.

[SpecialK]

44 minutes ago, El Diego said:

I'm not saying it is not relevant, I am saying that having a Canadian grandparent alone is not enough to qualify you and it is not the only way to qualify you. This has already been discussed previously in the thread, I don't know why we keep asking the same questions and relaying the same misinformation.

That’s not misinformation, that’s straight from FIFA. If his grandmother was or is Canadian, he can play for Canada it’s very simple. Yes some soccer federations require passports, some don’t. But it would be very easy for him to get a Canadian passport because he’s English. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by SpecialK

[costarg]

6 hours ago, El Hombre said:

This is the kind of analysis that irks me and I assume what @PiedPilko was referring to.  The singular fact of him playing at Reading does not put him ahead of Johnston or Miller.  They took a different path than Holmes mostly because Holmes' pathway was not available to them due to geographical reasons.  Doneil Henry was playing in MLS at 18.  MLS>NCAA so that means that he would be ahead of everyone on our back line, no?  Maybe Godinho should've been our starting RB in 2021 because he was playing SPL at 19/20 years old?

Holmes may be great.  Or he may be serviceable.  Or he may be prone to bone-headed errors.  You can't say for sure he's better than Johnston or Miller until you see him playing in the formation we have with the other members of our backline.  

All we can say for sure is he's the shiny new trinket and a lot of posters around here love the shiny new trinket.  But it's still on him to prove that he's "obviously talented" and better than everyone else we have.  Just like Ugbo didn't walk into the starting 11, this guy will have to prove that he's better than the others with more than just his resume.

You make a few statements that are kinda off.....

The fact that Holmes was starting for Reading at 20 does put him ahead of Johnston or Miller when they were 20.

The MLS 11 years ago is not the same MLS as today.  Not even comparable, so using the Henry comparison is also a stretch.  Henry played 4 matches for Blackburn, and he's not the same player today.  Injuries played a major part in this, but even without, Henry never reached that level, especially at 20.

Have you ever heard a coach say they needed Godinho back in the lineup to be at their best?

Bringing up the SPL is questionable if we're not talking about the two top clubs.

I'll admit I don't follow SPL that closely, but outside the top two do the other teams really compare to the Championship?

It's more than loving the shiny new trinket, we know we need help in the back line, anything and everything will help.  Now, If we're just going to the WC to have a good time, well then we'll be alright, but if we want to compete we need to look for help.

 

[Norton]

On 3/19/2022 at 5:49 PM, dyslexic nam said:

We really should try to install a Voyageur in the upper echelons of Citizenship and Immigration Canada.  Would help expedite some of these discussions.  

At the risk of outing myself as a CIC.....errr.....IRCC (by our new name) employee --- not 'upper echelons' exactly, but I've been at it for a long time.

You can't get a Canadian passport unless you're a Canadian citizen.  For this lad to prove he's a Canadian citizen, having a grandparent who was Canadian is not enough, due to the 'second generation born abroad' rule.  You can't pass citizenship endlessly to your descendants. If you're Canadian by being born on Canadian soil or through naturalization, and then move abroad, yes, your children born abroad are citizens, but your grand-children aren't if they are also born abroad.

So if his dad was born on Canadian soil before the family moved to the UK, then yes, this fellow would automatically qualify as a citizen.  He could apply for the proof of citizenship (and then a passport) and other than how FIFA rules may interact with citizenship rules --- and I'm definitely less knowledgeable on FIFA rules --- be fine to pull on the maple leaf.

If his dad was only born after the family left Canada and not on Canadian soil, then Tom wouldn't automatically be a citizen and he'd have some work to do to become one.     

 

 

[Bison44]

On 4/26/2022 at 8:14 PM, SpecialK said:

That’s not misinformation, that’s straight from FIFA. If his grandmother was or is Canadian, he can play for Canada it’s very simple. Yes some soccer federations require passports, some don’t. But it would be very easy for him to get a Canadian passport because he’s English. 

Whaaaa?????  As opposed to if he was American or French or Irish??  Maybe NORTON above can shed light on it some more, but it can be a slog to get Perm Res cards etc, let alone passports etc.  I dont think its as easy as "me gram is from Canada and I'm English....run me up to the front of the line".  

[costarg]

4 hours ago, Norton said:

At the risk of outing myself as a CIC.....errr.....IRCC (by our new name) employee --- not 'upper echelons' exactly, but I've been at it for a long time.

You can't get a Canadian passport unless you're a Canadian citizen.  For this lad to prove he's a Canadian citizen, having a grandparent who was Canadian is not enough, due to the 'second generation born abroad' rule.  You can't pass citizenship endlessly to your descendants. If you're Canadian by being born on Canadian soil or through naturalization, and then move abroad, yes, your children born abroad are citizens, but your grand-children aren't if they are also born abroad.

So if his dad was born on Canadian soil before the family moved to the UK, then yes, this fellow would automatically qualify as a citizen.  He could apply for the proof of citizenship (and then a passport) and other than how FIFA rules may interact with citizenship rules --- and I'm definitely less knowledgeable on FIFA rules --- be fine to pull on the maple leaf.

If his dad was only born after the family left Canada and not on Canadian soil, then Tom wouldn't automatically be a citizen and he'd have some work to do to become one.     

 

 

I see what you're saying and I understand.  So how much would we Voyageurs need to stuff in an envelope to make it happen anyway, and quickly.  Everyone else is doing it.

[toontownman]

So long and short of it. 

- Looks like he meets Fifa requirements - if the Grandmother link is valid

- Whether he meets Canadian Passport/Immigration requirements is harder but there are some potential work arounds...maybe. 

Result - Still not really sure why I posted and don't know much more than I did before.  I'd never post if I followed those rules though.

 

 

 

 

[SpecialK]

2 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Whaaaa?????  As opposed to if he was American or French or Irish??  Maybe NORTON above can shed light on it some more, but it can be a slog to get Perm Res cards etc, let alone passports etc.  I dont think its as easy as "me gram is from Canada and I'm English....run me up to the front of the line".  

What I mean by that is for Canadian Citizenship it’s easier for people base on  what country they are from. There is huge bias and scrutiny based on it. 
 

england- NATO country, historic connections, trading partner, Commonwealth country etc etc . 

[Sal333]

20 hours ago, Norton said:

At the risk of outing myself as a CIC.....errr.....IRCC (by our new name) employee --- not 'upper echelons' exactly, but I've been at it for a long time.

You can't get a Canadian passport unless you're a Canadian citizen.  For this lad to prove he's a Canadian citizen, having a grandparent who was Canadian is not enough, due to the 'second generation born abroad' rule.  You can't pass citizenship endlessly to your descendants. If you're Canadian by being born on Canadian soil or through naturalization, and then move abroad, yes, your children born abroad are citizens, but your grand-children aren't if they are also born abroad.

So if his dad was born on Canadian soil before the family moved to the UK, then yes, this fellow would automatically qualify as a citizen.  He could apply for the proof of citizenship (and then a passport) and other than how FIFA rules may interact with citizenship rules --- and I'm definitely less knowledgeable on FIFA rules --- be fine to pull on the maple leaf.

If his dad was only born after the family left Canada and not on Canadian soil, then Tom wouldn't automatically be a citizen and he'd have some work to do to become one.     

 

 

What if his parent with the Canadian mother applies for Canadian citizenship? Can Tom get citizenship after his parent gets it?

[SpecialK]

So in 2009 the government changed the rules on grandparents inheritance of citizenship. So Fifa says he can play for us. Canadian government won’t give passport. The CSA needs great immigration lawyers and government friends.
 

https://dfimmigration.ca/2020/08/30/am-i-a-canadian-citizen-if-i-have-a-canadian-parent-or-grandparent/

[SpecialK]

Question? Why is it necessary for him to have a Canadian passport play for us? Legally he would just need a work permit. ? 

[RS]

11 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

Question? Why is it necessary for him to have a Canadian passport play for us? Legally he would just need a work permit. ? 

Playing for Canada isn't a job, even though the players do get appearance fees and bonuses.

FIFA requires citizenship to represent a country.

[narduch]

21 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

So in 2009 the government changed the rules on grandparents inheritance of citizenship. So Fifa says he can play for us. Canadian government won’t give passport. The CSA needs great immigration lawyers and government friends.
 

https://dfimmigration.ca/2020/08/30/am-i-a-canadian-citizen-if-i-have-a-canadian-parent-or-grandparent/

Thank Harper for that.

[SpecialK]

https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/ccab990abf45fcf6/original/ro8mje8vw98yp3rvfbmi-pdf.pdf

[Norton]

1 hour ago, Sal333 said:

What if his parent with the Canadian mother applies for Canadian citizenship? Can Tom get citizenship after his parent gets it?

By the 2009 law change -- the link SpecialK posted is a good summary -- not if Tom is the second generation of the family born abroad. If his grandmother was Canadian (by birth on soil or by immigrating and eventually becoming a citizen), and Tom's parent was born abroad, then Tom is the second generation born abroad. Citizenship would really only be granted after he immigrated here and earned citizenship himself.  

There ARE conceivably ways that Tom could be a citizen --- the first Citizenship Act was passed in 1947 and it was updated in 1977 (and 2009), and there are possibilities based on the law as it existed when Tom's parent was born. One possibility would have been if Tom's Canadian parent was really proactive and applied for proof of citizenship for Tom right away when he was born (before the 2009 law came into effect). 

As we don't really know all the details of the family's history, I went through this tool answering a few different ways and could get results of 'Yes, you're probably Canadian,' 'No, you're probably not Canadian,' and even, 'Your case is too complicated to tell.' : https://ircc.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_3pJ5oXgZNBj0r1c?Q_Language=EN.  If IRCC's 'Am I a Canadian?' tool finds it too complicated, no wonder we can't fully arrive at the definitive answer here. 

[Norton]

15 hours ago, SpecialK said:

What I mean by that is for Canadian Citizenship it’s easier for people base on  what country they are from. There is huge bias and scrutiny based on it. 
 

england- NATO country, historic connections, trading partner, Commonwealth country etc etc . 

There may be some historical advantage for the UK because we didn't have a distinct Canadian citizenship until 1947 and Canadians were just considered 'British subjects' before that.  That's part of the possible descent that Tom could have that would help him with a 'proof of citizenship' application. For the most part, though, that's not really the case these days --- Pretty much everyone applies for citizenship using the same forms and is checked against the same rules: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-citizenship/become-canadian-citizen.html.  

Once in a while, someone gets fast-track citizenship for exceptional service to Canada, but in the one case I can think of right off-hand, bobsledder Lascelles Brown, his sport allowed him to compete for Canada at basically every bobsled World Cup event but he just couldn't compete for Canada at the Olympics until he became a citizen:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascelles_Brown.  

[SpecialK]

I would love for the CSA to come out and say we are in talks with Tom and we are gonna do everything in power to make this happen or something to that effect. 

[costarg]

I don't know much about these laws and the process involved, however, I'm curious..... Lets say Canada Immigration gets a request/application printed on CSA letterhead for a professional soccer player.  Are you really telling me there is no chance Canada Immigration makes an exception to the rules/laws?  Is it just me or aren't we being ridiculously anal not to.  You know other countries do it.  We and other countries welcome corporations and wealthy individuals to come here to invest their money in local and global business, why wouldn't we do it for sporting causes when it benefits the country as a whole?  Are we really afraid Tom Holmes will bring in his family and abuse our health system when its already 75x better in the UK? 

[Bison44]

Well if we do start that kind of stuff, be prepared for a hard hitting investigative report from the CBC on how sports figures are given special treatment over refugees, Afgans or Ukranians.  Plus they'll mention that there are waiting lists years long for many of these processes.  Hell I'll even chirp in with my story of it taking years to get perm res card for my wife and the HOOPS we had to jump through for that.  Many times the GOV will do a lot to avoid the appearance of an unfair system, even if its all just lip service.  

But saying all that, I wouldnt want to dig to deep on Davies getting his citizenship ummm about 15 minutes before a CMNT camp.  We prob dont want to know how the sausages are made and prob we shouldnt just assume we arent being proactive....maybe we are just quiet about it eh??  

[pod818]

Wasn't the issue with Solholm was that they couldn't provide the proper paperwork to prove the Grandparent was Canadian?

Perhaps this can be difficult, especially if the grandparent has passed on..may not be the easiest thing to prove or disprove depending on what paperwork is required. 

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

Well if we do start that kind of stuff, be prepared for a hard hitting investigative report from the CBC on how sports figures are given special treatment over refugees, Afgans or Ukranians. 

But we do give citizenship to refugees, Afghans and Ukranians, as well as anyone willing to invest in the economy.  That's my point.  So why be so tough on pro athletes?

[Bison44]

6 minutes ago, costarg said:

But we do give citizenship to refugees, Afghans and Ukranians, as well as anyone willing to invest in the economy.  That's my point.  So why be so tough on pro athletes?

They still have to wait their turn..if the Gov says special treatment for a certain group....usually everyone is ok and that group is in dire need, so they get processed first and quickly.  What are the optics of making special exemptions for well off sports figures??  Optics and scandals are what GOV care about.  CSA prob isnt able to run to the GOV and say "hey we just discovered a CB in the championship that has a CDN granny...can you fast track this so we can get him into some friendlies in a few months, we could really use the depth??" 

This shit takes FOR EVER for regular people.  Fill out forms, wait 6 months, fill out more forms, get more certificates and documents, 100's of pages of info, wait one year to hear back from them...go get a clean bill of health from an accredited doctor.....fill out more forms, wait another 6 months....ad nauseum.  Its not being tough on them, its not letting them slip in front of people that are 2 years into the process eh??  Or at least if it happens its on the QT and only for very special people.  I wonder how long it took to get paperwork done for Arfield, Wotherspoon, Eusq etc etc??