Joel Waterman

[Bison44]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

So yes, we have these rivalries and rib each other. Yes, I admit, I like to take shots at TFC because, mostly, the fans tend to overrate any kid that comes along, the hype is a bit much. But I know you can't ask any of the MLS clubs to produce quality pros, of the level to challenge for the NT, on a regular basis. Or better: you can ask, but you are probably asking too much, as no country in the world asks that much of just three pro clubs.

Hmmm, a certain bird sh$t covered poster thinks the 8 team CPL is a failure because they didnt produce any players for the CMNT in the first 4 years. I guess we just keep supporting our local club, local as in not just the 3 big centers, maratimes, prairies, AB etc which was NEVER happening with MLS alone.  And hopefully the kids that love soccer can find like minded coaches and clubs wherever they are at and have opportunities to go as far as their talent will take them. 

Like Waterman...even if he gets  a "lateral" move to europe he'll prob end up making a lot more money and will have a better chance to keep improving his skills as a late bloomer.  And who knows, after 4 years in europe, maybe he'll be 2026's Vittoria..the wiley old CB we cant live without.  Good for him, good for us fans.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

21 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Hmmm, a certain bird sh$t covered poster thinks the 8 team CPL is a failure because they didnt produce any players for the CMNT in the first 4 years. I guess we just keep supporting our local club, local as in not just the 3 big centers, maratimes, prairies, AB etc which was NEVER happening with MLS alone.  And hopefully the kids that love soccer can find like minded coaches and clubs wherever they are at and have opportunities to go as far as their talent will take them. 

Like Waterman...even if he gets  a "lateral" move to europe he'll prob end up making a lot more money and will have a better chance to keep improving his skills as a late bloomer.  And who knows, after 4 years in europe, maybe he'll be 2026's Vittoria..the wiley old CB we cant live without.  Good for him, good for us fans.  

My neighbourhood has two rival clubs both in 7th tier, play on the same field. One turns 100 next year. A plaque commemorates it's where Ferran Olivella started, he ended up playing for FC Barcelona in the 50s, was captain of the Spain team that won the Euro in 1964.

But that is actually NOT a big deal (though it is cool, and Olivella is still alive), because the structure is in place and has been since at least then. Both my local clubs have produced players who have made pro (eg Ilie Sánchez at LAFC)--but what sort of accomplishment is that? We're in a city and a nation with literally thousands of small clubs and then pro leagues, and you are bound to produce someone. It is not so special, because when I go to smaller clubs, if they've been around at least a few decades, they all have a picture of some local kid who made pro.

This is because there is capacity for absorption, and to give guys alternatives, if it does not work out in one spot, there are no dead ends. In a properly fleshed out system, you'd have clubs in Saskatoon, and in Moncton, in Québec City, and then the academies and local clubs will have almost all sent someone up to that club, and he would have moved on further. There is no country in the world that thrives in football without there being a massive base, a very broad base, with all the paths to excellence covered and with alternatives. 

Another very important thing: most successful nations do not filter out kids because their parents can't afford to send them to the better youth academies, that is poison, it is only good so coaches and academy owners who are afraid to prove themselves can make too much doing too little.

 

[Sal333]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The real point is that we can't sit here and expect three pro teams to produce quality from the academies, play them, play them to good results, and for those guys to go on to make a fundamental contribution to our national programme. It is too thin a foundation. So we are asking too much of all three MLS teams. And it is not even their mandate. MLS has a mandate from US Soccer to grow its development, in fact the Canadian clubs exist to serve that interest also.

Most countries have a core of 20-60 strong pro teams of a certain level, each doing their own thing, identifying local players, competing from a young age, with avid coaches, all certified. Even Scotland or Austria or Slovenia. So if you know how football works in any given country, you will know there are lower level academies are producing quality that can go pro. If Canada were able to have clubs at an equivalent, say, to a nation like Romania or Czech Republic, we'd see it too. Even if we get to 14 teams in a CPL playing with twice the budget for salaries, we are still too thin for development. 

MLS is too thin. CPL helps though it is probably not quite a 2nd division, say its a tier and half to two tiers lower (on the basis of quality of play, in budget, it'd be 3-4th tier). If CPL grows and the quality begins to push up towards MLS, not just with the odd Cup result, but authentically; and if the CPL clubs decide to have academies. If salaries go up, so it begins to be attractive to play for these teams. And then if the entire tier of League One shifts upwards in quality, then you'd be starting to talk about something.

So yes, we have these rivalries and rib each other. Yes, I admit, I like to take shots at TFC because, mostly, the fans tend to overrate any kid that comes along, the hype is a bit much. But I know you can't ask any of the MLS clubs to produce quality pros, of the level to challenge for the NT, on a regular basis. Or better: you can ask, but you are probably asking too much, as no country in the world asks that much of just three pro clubs.

You're forgetting American universities. I know, I know, it's embarrassing to mention US universities as a development stream for Canadian players but I know of three players on this WC national team who came up that way: Miller, Johnston and Buchanan.

[Bison44]

2 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

You're forgetting American universities. I know, I know, it's embarrassing to mention US universities as a development stream for Canadian players but I know of three players on this WC national team who came up that way: Miller, Johnston and Buchanan.

Lareya, Larin, StClair...... Kaye and Waterman played in CDN Usports.  

[VinceA]

15 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

You're forgetting American universities. I know, I know, it's embarrassing to mention US universities as a development stream for Canadian players but I know of three players on this WC national team who came up that way: Miller, Johnston and Buchanan.

Nothing embarassing about the college stream. you gotta do what you gotta do.

[Sal333]

6 minutes ago, VinceA said:

Nothing embarassing about the college stream. you gotta do what you gotta do.

It's not the universities that are embarrassing. It's that Canadians have to go to American ones. We're incapable of developing them here.

[PiedPilko]

25 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

It's not the universities that are embarrassing. It's that Canadians have to go to American ones. We're incapable of developing them here.

This isn't unique to soccer. The best talent is always gonna go to the U.S. 

At least with the U Sports draft, we get to save late bloomers like Waterman.

Edited December 4, 2022 by PiedPilko

[Bison44]

Everyone follows the money eh?  We dont put the same amount of $$ into Usports that they do..there is nothing wrong with our schools.  With the CPL draft/summer work program for undergrads, maybe we keep more of the talent that used to drain into the us swamp and build up our system a bit.  

[BearcatSA]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Another very important thing: most successful nations do not filter out kids because their parents can't afford to send them to the better youth academies, that is poison, it is only good so coaches and academy owners who are afraid to prove themselves can make too much doing too little.

^this.

[Stoppage Time]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Another very important thing: most successful nations do not filter out kids because their parents can't afford to send them to the better youth academies, that is poison, it is only good so coaches and academy owners who are afraid to prove themselves can make too much doing too little.

 

This happens at youth level. Some clubs have the financial ability and will to sponsor players in the community whose parents do not have much disposable income. What if CPL clubs in Canada each set aside $50,000.00 and MLS clubs set aside $100,000 per season to ensure that no, or very few, players who needed to play in elite youth academies missed out due to lack of affordability?  Youth clubs could apply to the large clubs for a subsidy for prospects experiencing poverty.  I am not sure of an appropriate age at which  this could apply, but 15 seems reasonable. The Pro clubs might end up with a top end player who could, perhaps, be moved to a higher level for a big payday. Youth clubs could be rewarded financially for identifying and helping to develop the player. It a potential win-win-win. 

[Aird25]

13 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

^this.

How do we do it when there’s barely liveable wages for first division players  though? I genuinely don’t know how it works elsewhere 

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, Sal333 said:

You're forgetting American universities. I know, I know, it's embarrassing to mention US universities as a development stream for Canadian players but I know of three players on this WC national team who came up that way: Miller, Johnston and Buchanan.

Appreciate what you are saying, but the NCAA stream will disappear, or fade, as the pro structure deepens.

You can't develop properly playing 4 months of competition a year from age 18 to 22. League One can give you another 3. Still far too little, and more: in NCAA, as with U-Sports, the freshmen and sophomores don't even get minutes. Wasted development.

I don't deny that some guys, unsure of their path, will opt for an education--better in Canada because our higher education is far better value. And that after, they may find a way into pro. Most, however, will follow paths like Kone's, which is the closest we have now to the path of Musiala, Moukoko, Gavi or Pedri: local club, identified early by a bigger pro club, coach trusting them early, pro contract.

[RS]

16 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The real point is that we can't sit here and expect three pro teams to produce quality from the academies, play them, play them to good results, and for those guys to go on to make a fundamental contribution to our national programme. It is too thin a foundation. So we are asking too much of all three MLS teams. And it is not even their mandate. MLS has a mandate from US Soccer to grow its development, in fact the Canadian clubs exist to serve that interest also.

Most countries have a core of 20-60 strong pro teams of a certain level, each doing their own thing, identifying local players, competing from a young age, with avid coaches, all certified. Even Scotland or Austria or Slovenia. So if you know how football works in any given country, you will know there are lower level academies are producing quality that can go pro. If Canada were able to have clubs at an equivalent, say, to a nation like Romania or Czech Republic, we'd see it too. Even if we get to 14 teams in a CPL playing with twice the budget for salaries, we are still too thin for development. 

MLS is too thin. CPL helps though it is probably not quite a 2nd division, say its a tier and half to two tiers lower (on the basis of quality of play, in budget, it'd be 3-4th tier). If CPL grows and the quality begins to push up towards MLS, not just with the odd Cup result, but authentically; and if the CPL clubs decide to have academies. If salaries go up, so it begins to be attractive to play for these teams. And then if the entire tier of League One shifts upwards in quality, then you'd be starting to talk about something.

So yes, we have these rivalries and rib each other. Yes, I admit, I like to take shots at TFC because, mostly, the fans tend to overrate any kid that comes along, the hype is a bit much. But I know you can't ask any of the MLS clubs to produce quality pros, of the level to challenge for the NT, on a regular basis. Or better: you can ask, but you are probably asking too much, as no country in the world asks that much of just three pro clubs.

I don't disagree with any of this, but until the CPL gets bigger and starts to really effect the national team, the three MLS clubs are still going to be (over)relied upon to produce players at that level.

So having Vancouver lag so far behind on Canadian content is a drag on the program, as a whole.

[Unnamed Trialist]

58 minutes ago, RS said:

I don't disagree with any of this, but until the CPL gets bigger and starts to really effect the national team, the three MLS clubs are still going to be (over)relied upon to produce players at that level.

So having Vancouver lag so far behind on Canadian content is a drag on the program, as a whole.

Vancouver isn't lagging behind significantly. They've upped their CanCon in many ways, it seems to me in response to the CPL, but they're also a generally poorly run team. The academy is one of the most consistently solid in North America, even their Next Pro was solid (you could argue that results aren't the key issue, but they were upper mid table).

There's just a gap between the development and 1st team, because they develop at a higher level than they compete.

I think having a CPL club in Langley, added to rough post Covid attendance, will continue to push the club to have a Canadian presence to not get frozen out by impatient fans.

BTW, the Whitecaps and TFC had a starter each from their development systems vs Belgium and Croatia (Davies, Laryea). Vs Morocco it was 2-1 Whitecaps (Davies and Adekugbe, Osorio). You consistently overrate TFC @RS

Edited December 4, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[BearcatSA]

29 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I think having a CPL club in Langley, added to rough post Covid attendance, will continue to push the club to have a Canadian presence to not get frozen out by impatient fans.

Fans in Vancouver are impatient for a winner, plain and simple.   If they are near the top of the conference, very, very few supporters are going to give a sh*t that Captain Rusty is the only regular Canadian starter.  Winning also negates the threat of losing fans to an expansion CPL franchise in the Fraser Valley.

Of course, the winning part is a big IF.

[RS]

51 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Vancouver isn't lagging behind significantly. They've upped their CanCon in many ways, it seems to me in response to the CPL, but they're also a generally poorly run team.

...

BTW, the Whitecaps and TFC had a starter each from their development systems vs Belgium and Croatia (Davies, Laryea). Vs Morocco it was 2-1 Whitecaps (Davies and Adekugbe, Osorio). You consistently overrate TFC @RS

I clearly gave credit to the Whitecaps for Adekugbe and Davies but also wrote that since then the cupboard has been bare CanCon-wise. The numbers support my assertion, just go look at @Corazon's Canadians in MLS list for 2022: 9,440 minutes for Canadians on Vancouver vs. 16,053 minutes for Montreal and 14,954 minutes for Toronto.

Converted into full 90-minute matches, the 2022 Whitecaps were 61 man-games behind TFC and 73 man-games behind CFM in Canadian content, in MLS play alone. That's a huge gap.

But my larger point was that the future doesn't project well for the Whitecaps in CanCon terms because they've barely given any minutes to Canadians outside of Teibert (who you once spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to convince us here was better than Osorio), Cavallini and Raposo (who VWFC do deserve kudos for) — none of whom are "young" in soccer terms.

To be fair, Hasal would've played a ton more minutes if not for injury, and in GK terms he's still a young player, so that's any area VWFC will likely improve immediately now that he's healthy. However, the biggest minute-getter 22 years old or younger for the Whitecaps was Michael Baldisimo, whose 450 minutes puts him below six TFC players (Nelson, Petrasso, Thompson, Kerr, Akinola and Marshall-Rutty) and one CFM player (Kone) from the same age group. And he just left the Whitecaps.

So yes, the Whitecaps are lagging behind significantly, both in terms of overall CanCon and youth CanCon. That they happen to be behind TFC in that regard is just pure numbers and has nothing to do with me or your insistence that I overrate them. However, the fact that you feel that they are keeping pace despite overwhelming evidence otherwise is because you consistently overrate the Whitecaps @Unnamed Trialist

 

(All of this is to say that I don't believe total minutes for Canadians on bad teams is as good as fewer CanCon minutes on good teams, creating an environment where players have to really earn their minutes. But since neither Vancouver nor Toronto were good this year they both have a long way to go.)

[RS]

1 hour ago, BearcatSA said:

Fans in Vancouver are impatient for a winner, plain and simple.   If they are near the top of the conference, very, very few supporters are going to give a sh*t that Captain Rusty is the only regular Canadian starter.

This is true of all three cities, I believe. Most in Montreal were fine with the Didier Drogba/Ignacio Piatti era Impact when they made it to the Eastern finals with only Bernier as a starter, and most in Toronto didn't care that Osorio was the only regular Canadian starter for the treble-winning 2017 team either.

If anything, TFC's love of high-priced foreigners in attacking positions is something that spurred Osorio to to become a better player and force himself into the lineup (this is something he actually told me in early 2017 when TFC acquired Victor Vazquez). So that's a positive from a negative, if you will.

However, Montreal in 2022 proved that there is an advantage to find the proper mix of Canadians, both competitively and narratively. CFM having so many Canadians on the World Cup squad is something that TSN has hammered home on their WC broadcasts, which creates the narrative that teams can be successful with many Canadians if the conditions are right.

[The Real Marc]

So apparently we think Waterman may be off too? To where?

[jonovision]

43 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

So apparently we think Waterman may be off too? To where?

 

[The Real Marc]

Wow. Thanks. Mtl will have no defence left soon.

[toontownman]

22 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

Wow. Thanks. Mtl will have no defence left soon.

And ZBG will still be on the bench.

[SoCalTransport]

23 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

Wow. Thanks. Mtl will have no defence left soon.

Surprised by this move if it happens for Waterman.

Looks like Kamal wants to go to Europe also. If I were him, this would be my opportunity to get a bigger contract from Montreal.

[Obinna]

I wonder if the German club or clubs are in the Bundesliga or 2.Bundesliga? Turkey would be someone outside the top 3, I think. Austria maybe someone like Rapid Wein? Do we know any of the linked clubs?

[Unnamed Trialist]

20 hours ago, RS said:

I clearly gave credit to the Whitecaps for Adekugbe and Davies but also wrote that since then the cupboard has been bare CanCon-wise. The numbers support my assertion, just go look at @Corazon's Canadians in MLS list for 2022: 9,440 minutes for Canadians on Vancouver vs. 16,053 minutes for Montreal and 14,954 minutes for Toronto.

Converted into full 90-minute matches, the 2022 Whitecaps were 61 man-games behind TFC and 73 man-games behind CFM in Canadian content, in MLS play alone. That's a huge gap.

But my larger point was that the future doesn't project well for the Whitecaps in CanCon terms because they've barely given any minutes to Canadians outside of Teibert (who you once spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to convince us here was better than Osorio), Cavallini and Raposo (who VWFC do deserve kudos for) — none of whom are "young" in soccer terms.

To be fair, Hasal would've played a ton more minutes if not for injury, and in GK terms he's still a young player, so that's any area VWFC will likely improve immediately now that he's healthy. However, the biggest minute-getter 22 years old or younger for the Whitecaps was Michael Baldisimo, whose 450 minutes puts him below six TFC players (Nelson, Petrasso, Thompson, Kerr, Akinola and Marshall-Rutty) and one CFM player (Kone) from the same age group. And he just left the Whitecaps.

So yes, the Whitecaps are lagging behind significantly, both in terms of overall CanCon and youth CanCon. That they happen to be behind TFC in that regard is just pure numbers and has nothing to do with me or your insistence that I overrate them. However, the fact that you feel that they are keeping pace despite overwhelming evidence otherwise is because you consistently overrate the Whitecaps @Unnamed Trialist

 

(All of this is to say that I don't believe total minutes for Canadians on bad teams is as good as fewer CanCon minutes on good teams, creating an environment where players have to really earn their minutes. But since neither Vancouver nor Toronto were good this year they both have a long way to go.)

Your entire post misses the point: we are talking about development, not minutes played. And not some guy that came to a club in his 20s after being developed afterwards. Giving a mature Canadian minutes is not development, which is why I did not mention Cavallini at any time. 

TFC threw plenty of minutes at Canadians, which is great, but the team was not in condition to make hardly any of them meaningful. Most of those young guys getting minutes were around the same age as Kone, but none were brought to the NT for significant minutes or the WC, and no significant transfers have been seen. As many releases as transfers, it seems. As soon as TFC decides to go back to winning, those minutes will decrease anyways.

Anyways, just to show you are shooting blanks is you try to mention Raposo in my favour, who is an Ontario product. I think Oakville, anyways, I met a guy watching the Belgium match in Barcelona with an Oakville soccer shirt and he said he came up with Raposo (I asked about him on Abroad, because he said he was u23 on a Serie C team, Rimini, before being injured, but can't figure out who he is).

Raposo, another mid, actually had a good year. Could merit consideration going forward. No credit to the Whitecaps for developing him.

Teibert, I know you need to lead in misrepresentation, to the point of plain lying about what others say (which may explain your successful journalism career); all I said--and we are talking about the end of the 2021 season when the Caps were hot and made the playoffs-- was that objectively Teibert should not so clearly be discounted and other players having bad years blindly included. Kaye was blindy included in the WC squad as was Henry, neither deserving it (those TFC stocking stuffers are a fraud to the NT programme).

True, Teibert was dire this year, us Caps fans saw that, we shook our heads constantly; but is the gap so immense? In the Voyageurs Cup final, arguably the most important game both teams played this year, he was far better than Osorio, who was a mess and blew his penalty, and that was only last summer.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[RS]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Your entire post misses the point

Sure it does. That's why you took nearly a full day to come up with this retort even though you've been active in other threads.

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I know you need to lead in misrepresentation, to the point of plain lying about what others say

Nah, what I said about your Teibert over Osorio crusade was correct, as others on this board have confirmed. 

Anyway, if you want to talk about lying, let's head on over to the Ismael Kone thread where,  as recently as Nov. 25th, you tried to shit on anyone who said that he'd fetch a 5-6 million+ transfer fee. When called out on it, you tried to misrepresent your argument by saying that you expressed that opinion before the World Cup, which is true, but you had doubled down on it on the 25th in reaction to Kone's play against Belgium two days earlier.

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

TFC

You're the one constantly trying to make this about TFC, not me. I only used Toronto and Montreal as comparatives to prove my point about Whitecaps' CanCon.