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Joel Waterman


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34 minutes ago, VinceA said:

In general I don't like how Herdman handles his defensive rotations, in that he doesn't. I worry it's going to bite us in the ass at the WC, but he has the benefit of the doubt for now.

I felt a similar way during qualifiers, specifically around Johnston, who we don't have a back-up for (and still don't). Could have bitten us in the ass, but it didn't. I see Herdman approaching the WC in the same way, for better or worse.

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42 minutes ago, VinceA said:

Maybe, but Herdman not even giving him 20 minutes against a poor Qatar to get his feet wet was telling for me.

I don't think much can be made of that. I guess it tells us that Waterman won't be preferred to Vitoria, but we knew that anyway.

It is understandable once you assume Vitoria will play every minute.

Put it this way, if all goes well Henry won't play. Just like Crepeau or St. Clair won't play. At the start of camp there were only 270 minutes of game time remaining to prepare the team, and clearly Herdman decided it was best to give Vitoria and Borjan 180/180 of those minutes so far, since those are the guys who will play. 

Maybe I am wrong and Herdman gives minutes to Henry against Japan, but I don't expect that to happen. Should that happen though, I would gladly revise my assumption that Vitoria is the de facto starter, and I would entertain the idea that Waterman never played simply because he didn't impress Herdman.

It should be mentioned too that Cornelius and Kennedy didn't play, which lends credence to the idea that Miller is the starting LCB and Herdman was simply trying to get his first-choice defenders maximum minutes. 

 

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1 minute ago, VinceA said:

Great performance tonight. Herdman black mark against him will be leaving Waterman off the roster for Henry. Which I think is going to happen.

Orlando had 4 golden opportunities and they were all down his side. I wouldn't call his performance great. He was lucky that Orlando is the gang that couldn't shoot straight.

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1 hour ago, Sal333 said:

Orlando had 4 golden opportunities and they were all down his side. I wouldn't call his performance great. He was lucky that Orlando is the gang that couldn't shoot straight.

Yeah, Waterman was the weak link in Montreal's back line IMO. Although Camacho tried his best to mess things up at times.

Johnston and Miller are the rocks.

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3 hours ago, Sal333 said:

Orlando had 4 golden opportunities and they were all down his side. I wouldn't call his performance great. He was lucky that Orlando is the gang that couldn't shoot straight.

I counted 2 golden opportunities.  On the first, it was Camacho that was beaten by the strikers run as Waterman was up the filed pressuring the passer.  On the second, it was his side of the field but Miller was actually behind him on that play but CF Montreal left Johnston with 3 attackers to guard.  I think all 3 of the defenders (Waterman, Miller and Johnston) were equally at fault for not communicating on that play.  I am a big fan of Johnston but his weakness is guarding that back post for balls coming into the box as he got exposed there against Uruguay and I believe the US in qualifying (although they didn’t score).

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I will add that Waterman made the initial pass to Kamara that started the sequence for Kone's goal.  His distribution is solid even if his defense is suspect.  That said, the gap between him and Vitoria, even at Vitoria's advanced age, is large.

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I find Montreal has a bit of a swashbuckling attitude when it comes to their defensive line.  I am no expert on MLS play across the league but I doubt there are many teams that have defenders get forward as much as Johnston and Miller.  That is the way Nancy wants them to play, and it has worked well,  but inevitably that is going to lead to the other team finding spaces, having numbers against them, and getting chances.  If anything, it seemed like Orlando was trying to exploit that style of play last night - they just couldn’t finish their chances (at all).    Bottom line for me is that some of Orlando’s chances seemed to be more about the system they play rather than any one player being at fault (though I have to admit that I didn’t break them down in any great detail).  

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9 hours ago, RS said:

Yeah, Waterman was the weak link in Montreal's back line IMO. Although Camacho tried his best to mess things up at times.

Johnston and Miller are the rocks.

Yeah totally my take too, he also had a few head bad passes, a forgettable game for him.

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Are we really discussing all the weaknesses he has?

 

He went from playing CPL to being a starter in that Montreal team who plays the same way as our National Team : from the back.

 

Of course he is not perfect, but he is playing, he is getting better and he is great with the ball at his feet.

 

Should he be in Qatar before Henry? Absolutely. Henry has been woeful this year and he is out of game shape.

 

None of our CB are perfect. 

Vitoria is slow and old

Miller has progressed so much these last 2 years. He still isn't the final product.

Johnston is a big ???? when playing against tall/big striker

Is Kennedy playing a higher level than Waterman?

 

I believe Waterman should be in the Qatar squad. 

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51 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I find Montreal has a bit of a swashbuckling attitude when it comes to their defensive line.  I am no expert on MLS play across the league but I doubt there are many teams that have defenders get forward as much as Johnston and Miller.  That is the way Nancy wants them to play, and it has worked well,  but inevitably that is going to lead to the other team finding spaces, having numbers against them, and getting chances.  If anything, it seemed like Orlando was trying to exploit that style of play last night - they just couldn’t finish their chances (at all).    Bottom line for me is that some of Orlando’s chances seemed to be more about the system they play rather than any one player being at fault (though I have to admit that I didn’t break them down in any great detail).  

Good point about CFM's swashbuckling attitude but did you notice that Orlando was attacking Waterman's side of the pitch. They rarely if ever went down Miller's side. The scouts identified Montreal's Achilles heel and named it Waterman. If Orlando's strikers had been accurate on one of their chances, we would be singing a different tune this morning.

Anyway for me Waterman is on the squad to Qatar but he is at the bottom of the depth chart for CBs unless Henry can't get himself in game shape.

Another thing about Waterman and anybody who has seen him regularly this year will attest to it: he has a bad temper. He's liable to get on the ref's bad side or take it out on an opponent. There were a few incidents last night were he was vehemently arguing with the ref. That was a calm night for Waterman. If you're afraid of Henry getting a red card, you should be doubly scared of Waterman and his temper.

Edited by Sal333
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13 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

They rarely if ever went down Miller's side. The scouts identified Montreal's Achilles heel and named it Waterman. If Orlando's strikers had been accurate on one of their chances, we would be singing a different tune this morning.

Waterman and Miller aren't alone on their sides of the pitch though. One has Johnston playing wingback and the other has Lappalainen. If I'm looking at which of Montreal's wingbacks to attack I'm 100% going down the side that Lappalainen is on. 

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19 minutes ago, farrelld said:

Waterman and Miller aren't alone on their sides of the pitch though. One has Johnston playing wingback and the other has Lappalainen. If I'm looking at which of Montreal's wingbacks to attack I'm 100% going down the side that Lappalainen is on. 

The Finn made an excellent recovery run and crucial interception of a dangerous through ball in the first half and generally put in a lot of other defensive running down that side last night.  He and Miller were solid.

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1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

I find Montreal has a bit of a swashbuckling attitude when it comes to their defensive line.  I am no expert on MLS play across the league but I doubt there are many teams that have defenders get forward as much as Johnston and Miller.  That is the way Nancy wants them to play, and it has worked well,  but inevitably that is going to lead to the other team finding spaces, having numbers against them, and getting chances.

This will be their downfall against teams with better attackers. There's no way they can play the same way in Philadelphia and get a result. Or in MLS Cup against LAFC/Austin/LA Galaxy.

However, Nancy is smart enough to recognize this and should have a plan in place to alter their playing style in such matches. Whether they can pull it off is yet to be proven, but that's why they play the games.

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1 minute ago, RS said:

This will be their downfall against teams with better attackers. There's no way they can play the same way in Philadelphia and get a result. Or in MLS Cup against LAFC/Austin/LA Galaxy.

However, Nancy is smart enough to recognize this and should have a plan in place to alter their playing style in such matches. Whether they can pull it off is yet to be proven, but that's why they play the games.

I hope this is the case but they have been playing like this all season.  Suddenly restraining someone like Miller in potentially the last game or two of the season may not be ideal as it affects not only the defensive line but also how their attack takes shape.  

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1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

I hope this is the case but they have been playing like this all season.  Suddenly restraining someone like Miller in potentially the last game or two of the season may not be ideal as it affects not only the defensive line but also how their attack takes shape.  

Agreed. That's why I said it's yet to be proven that they can play like that.

IMO, they'll have to be able to show some restraint against a scary good Philly attack (assuming both make the Eastern finals). The Union are a force at home, and Montreal's road to MLS Cup will almost surely have to go through them. 

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Just now, P-O said:

Because everytime there is a game, it is always the same discussion.

 

Henry vs Waterman.

It'll be that way until the final roster is announced for the World Cup.

And it'll even go past that if one of them is left off the squad, and/or (God forbid) one of them messes up at the World Cup.

We're a real soccer country now. 😉

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