Joel Waterman

[Vasi]

50 minutes ago, canuckgbp said:

Toronto didn’t play their youth last year? It was a record year for academy player MLS minutes and MLS debuts. 
 

And Waterman isn’t a youth. He is turning 27 in January. 

They did, and then when they brought in old guys they shipped out a bunch of their kids out. Most for noting in return. Only Nelson was used well. Rutty barley played, and when he did play, he played out of position. 

Yes, Waterman is old. But from what I observed Montreal gives younger players all over the field more opportunities then TFC. This is why I feel confident that Montreal will fill holes with some of their kids, and will not replace them with older foreigners.

I could be wrong. But we shall see 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Vasi

[RS]

Meanwhile, Vancouver’s just keeping its head down in the corner hoping to not get noticed.

On topic, @jonovision asked if Cavalry would get a sell-on fee. It really depends on the terms of the transfer agreement between Cavalry and Montreal. I’d hope they were smart enough to include a sell-on clause. I quickly looked and couldn’t find an answer, but it was a 30-second search.

[youllneverwalkalone]

9 minutes ago, RS said:

Meanwhile, Vancouver’s just keeping its head down in the corner hoping to not get noticed.

[Free kick]

22 minutes ago, Vasi said:

They did, and then when they brought in old guys they shipped out a bunch of their kids out. Most for noting in return. Only Nelson was used well. Rutty barley played, and when he did play, he played out of position. 

Yes, Waterman is old. But from what I observed Montreal gives younger players all over the field more opportunities then TFC. This is why I feel confident that Montreal will fill holes with some of their kids, and will not replace them with older foreigners.

I could be wrong. But we shall see 

I will repost this again.   Because you obviously didnt see it:

From another thread whereby someone else was trying to propagate the same false information

**********************

Ismael Kone’s minutes played in 2022:  1587 minutes 
https://www.mlssoccer.com/stats/players/#season=2022&competition=mls-regular-season&club=1616&statType=general&position=all

Jaden Nelson’ s minutes played in 2022:  1982 mins

McNaughton’s minutes played in 2022: 1789 mins

Petrasso’s minutes  played in 2022 : 1684 mins

Thompson’s minutes played in 2022: 1625 mins

Kerr’s minutes played in 2022:  1301 mins

Priso’s minutes played were only 274 mins.  But he was on pace, before injury, to play far more minutes than Kone.  

https://www.mlssoccer.com/stats/players/#season=2022&competition=mls-regular-season&club=2077&statType=general&position=all

 

Conclusion:  Kone’s, who is going deservedly to the WC,  played fewer minutes than all those guys except Kerr and yet he earned a spot on Herdman’s squad.  I guess that’s really minimal minutes then isnt it? Does talent not matter here?  To earn minutes you have to show something irrespective of your age.   Is talent and prospective talent really just about minutes played? Answer,  It sure as is not.  Kone, despite played fewer minutes, showed us he has talent to earn more minutes, the other guys above did not.  And yet, they still got more minutes. 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Free kick

[RS]

6 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

Yes, the Whitecaps get big credit for Davies. You can also give them some credit for Adekugbe. 

But as one of the three top-level clubs in this country we’re going to need them to continue that pipeline, which, to be frank, looks rather dry since both those players left Vancouver.

[MauditYvon]

Koné also played in Champions League, MLS playoffs and Canadian Championship for a total of 2069 minutes with Montréal this year.

[VinceA]

2 minutes ago, RS said:

Yes, the Whitecaps get big credit for Davies. You can also give them some credit for Adekugbe. 

But as one of the three top-level clubs in this country we’re going to need them to continue that pipeline, which, to be frank, looks rather dry since both those players left Vancouver.

Vancouver and BC have been abysmal at contributing to the NT for years now. It's embarrassing IMO.

[RS]

1 minute ago, VinceA said:

Vancouver and BC have been abysmal at contributing to the NT for years now. It's embarrassing IMO.

It definitely needs to be better. 

Waterman is from BC, so hopefully he’s the first of a growing number. We need all three of the big cities (and their surrounding areas) pumping out as much talent as possible.

[Vasi]

26 minutes ago, Free kick said:

I will repost this again.   Because you obviously didnt see it:

From another thread whereby someone else was trying to propagate the same false information

**********************

Ismael Kone’s minutes played in 2022:  1587 minutes 
https://www.mlssoccer.com/stats/players/#season=2022&competition=mls-regular-season&club=1616&statType=general&position=all

Jaden Nelson’ s minutes played in 2022:  1982 mins

McNaughton’s minutes played in 2022: 1789 mins

Petrasso’s minutes  played in 2022 : 1684 mins

Thompson’s minutes played in 2022: 1625 mins

Kerr’s minutes played in 2022:  1301 mins

Priso’s minutes played were only 274 mins.  But he was on pace, before injury, to play far more minutes than Kone.  

https://www.mlssoccer.com/stats/players/#season=2022&competition=mls-regular-season&club=2077&statType=general&position=all

 

Conclusion:  Kone’s, who is going deservedly to the WC,  played fewer minutes than all those guys except Kerr and yet he earned a spot on Herdman’s squad.  I guess that’s really minimal minutes then isnt it? Does talent not matter here?  To earn minutes you have to show something irrespective of your age.   Is talent and prospective talent really just about minutes played? Answer,  It sure as is not.  Kone, despite played fewer minutes, showed us he has talent to earn more minutes, the other guys above did not.  And yet, they still got more minutes. 

I dont think you read my last post.

Toronto has almost no interest in developing its youth. Or just isnt able to.  The only reason we play youth is because management is  incompetent and cant bring in tallent. So they need to fill in the holes with kids. But when they do they don't put them in positions to succeed. Once they bring in international DPs the youth don't get to play. So there is no interest of playing or developing the kids. 

Jaden Nelson - is the only one they played in position

McNaughton - 27 and does not count

Petrasso - got replaced by an old Italian who is now retired

Thompson - only played a few min in the last 12 games

Kerr - after the italians came in he was a 30 to 20 min sub or did not play 

Priso - got shipped out of town

 

This year more kids will play because TFC has not managed to fill any of their roster needs. Now one would think that this is good for development. However tfc has proven that they cant DEVELOP youth. 

Now you can play all you want, but if you are not put in positions to succeed it does not matter how much you play.

Yes Kone played less then some of the tfc kids, but was properly developed. Same with Johnston and Miller. They will be off to Europe soon. TFC kids need to be loaned or sold to other MLS teams to develop and then move on to Europe.

Which yonge kid has been sold to Europe from TFC? There isn't one. 

Fraser going to a shit team in the 2nd division in Belgium is worst then playing in another MLS team

 

[Free kick]

The fairest thing I can say is that everyone (of the three clubs) has done their part in one way or another.   Where I object to is the unsubstantiated and unsupported finger pointing towards TFC.   Its really rooted in bias and is just propagating.   Yes, Montreal deserves credit for identifying Kone and the Whitecaps for doing the same with Davies and Adekugbe.  

There wasn't a player of the impact of Kone nor Davies amongst the crop of half a dozen TFC academy developed players this year.  Hopefully JMR is that player but that proves that development is not just about throwing teenagers out there on pitch against grown seasoned professionals and think that that is all it takes to develop the next Messi or Kone or Davies.   All that does is adversely affect performance and losses will mount and in turn creates a terrible environment.   Thats what happened IMHO with TFC this past year.   Besides not everyone has the same abilities as Davies and Kone no matter how many minutes (first team) they get.  I would rather see a teenager earn their minutes through their performance or potential rather than getting spoon fed playing time.  

Thats what I read often here, people bashing TFC that these guys weren't getting minutes when in fact they were.   They wanted these guys to get spoon fed minutes.   This is also part and parcel of the problem we have with over rating young talent.  just because you are young,  doesnt mean that you are going to great.  

Edited December 3, 2022 by Free kick

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, MauditYvon said:

Koné also played in Champions League, MLS playoffs and Canadian Championship for a total of 2069 minutes with Montréal this year.

The TFC guys didnt get to play in Champions League & MLS playoffs because the team didn't qualify so for apples to apples comparison its best to stick to MLS minutes.

[youllneverwalkalone]

1 hour ago, RS said:

Yes, the Whitecaps get big credit for Davies. You can also give them some credit for Adekugbe. 

But as one of the three top-level clubs in this country we’re going to need them to continue that pipeline, which, to be frank, looks rather dry since both those players left Vancouver.

I wasn't trying to weigh into this discussion, I just wanted to see Phonzie in a Christmas sweater. AD was going to be a star wherever he started and the Caps were extremely lucky to cash in.

The Caps are rotten to the core, and I really can't figure out why. They seem to have some decent people in place now, so maybe things will improve. 

For BC, this is a complicated discussion, but I think you need to look no further than the TML Morgan Reilly and the Caps owners own son Alex Kerfoot. This is what an elite athlete male athlete from Greater Vancouver looks like these days: rich and white. If Bob Lenarduzzi was 18 today he'd probably be playing hockey and wouldn't get far. 

Our Euro immigration is minimal, and they like to play hockey and cheer for their home country in football. Afro-Carribbean immigration is next to nil. many of our Asian immigrants don't prioritize team sport. 

Just a few theories. That said, I know a lot of people in my friend and family group who are working very hard in youth football, so things may look better going forward. If you were alive in '86, you'll recall the entire side was more or less from BC.

[RS]

Doneil Henry was sold by TFC to West Ham (via the shady Cyprus club) at 21 years old. So to say “there isn’t one” isn’t accurate.

Should there be more? Absolutely.

But giving credit to Montreal for “developing” Alistair Johnston (who played all of 8 months there as an already established national teamer) is a stretch. 

What Montreal deserves credit for is identifying and amalgamating several Canadians in (or close to) their primes and building a team around them. That’s the first time that’s truly happened in MLS.

However, to call it a youth movement or use it as some sort of a beacon of youth development is misplaced. Montreal’s most influential Canadians were mostly developed elsewhere.

[Bison44]

How many of the WC team actually did come up through a MLS academy??  Pantemis, Adekugbe, Fraser, Kaye, Davies....Crepeau is missing, but its not as much as you think.  Hasal, Henry, Choiniere, Nelsen, Rutty, Corbeanu, Akinola are on the fringes.  I'm sure i am missing some guys...

[VinceA]

The more damning thing is none of our CBs on the final roster developed in MLS academies.

[PopePouri]

26 minutes ago, VinceA said:

The more damning thing is none of our CBs on the final roster developed in MLS academies.

This is an MLS issue because the same can be applied to the US roster.

Edited December 3, 2022 by PopePouri

[InglewoodJack]

I would’ve expected ZBG rumours before waterman transfer rumours. I wonder who is interested. As much as CFM is going to suffer next year, I think it would be cool to see him take a shot at Europe. League1 BC, USL2, CIS, CPL, MLS to Europe is a hell of a story.

[PastPros]

18 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I would’ve expected ZBG rumours before waterman transfer rumours. I wonder who is interested. As much as CFM is going to suffer next year, I think it would be cool to see him take a shot at Europe. League1 BC, USL2, CIS, CPL, MLS to Europe is a hell of a story.

With Johnston leaving, maybe Montreal plans to make ZBG a starter?

[Jack1997]

5 hours ago, Floortom said:

Waterman is 27 and has had one solid season in MLS. Prepare to be disappointed if those are your expectations. Salzburg wouldn’t waste  time on him for example.

I completely agree, I’m just saying I think it’s a waste of a move and not really a improvement if it’s not one of those clubs.

[dyslexic nam]

I know MLS has its critics but credit to  Saputo for showing how to make things work within they MLS system.   High league finish, playoff run, and then selling on players to European teams.  I doubt they can replicate it every year but I could see a guy like ZBG having a positive year best season and potentially seeing a move.  If they had another young guy come up through the ranks and impress in MLS (like Zouhir or Saliba) it would really demonstrate a positive model.  

[jonovision]

1 minute ago, Jack1997 said:

I completely agree, I’m just saying I think it’s a waste of a move and not really a improvement if it’s not one of those clubs.

Say he ended up in Hatayspor, where Adekugbe plays. Do you think that would be a step down or a lateral step from MLS?

[Jack1997]

6 minutes ago, jonovision said:

Say he ended up in Hatayspor, where Adekugbe plays. Do you think that would be a step down or a lateral step from MLS?

I think it’d be pretty lateral and I think it’s a risk because there’s a chance he’s not good enough but he’ll probably get paid more so for him it might be good.

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, RS said:

Doneil Henry was sold by TFC to West Ham (via the shady Cyprus club) at 21 years old. So to say “there isn’t one” isn’t accurate.

Should there be more? Absolutely.

But giving credit to Montreal for “developing” Alistair Johnston (who played all of 8 months there as an already established national teamer) is a stretch. 

What Montreal deserves credit for is identifying and amalgamating several Canadians in (or close to) their primes and building a team around them. That’s the first time that’s truly happened in MLS.

However, to call it a youth movement or use it as some sort of a beacon of youth development is misplaced. Montreal’s most influential Canadians were mostly developed elsewhere.

The real point is that we can't sit here and expect three pro teams to produce quality from the academies, play them, play them to good results, and for those guys to go on to make a fundamental contribution to our national programme. It is too thin a foundation. So we are asking too much of all three MLS teams. And it is not even their mandate. MLS has a mandate from US Soccer to grow its development, in fact the Canadian clubs exist to serve that interest also.

Most countries have a core of 20-60 strong pro teams of a certain level, each doing their own thing, identifying local players, competing from a young age, with avid coaches, all certified. Even Scotland or Austria or Slovenia. So if you know how football works in any given country, you will know there are lower level academies are producing quality that can go pro. If Canada were able to have clubs at an equivalent, say, to a nation like Romania or Czech Republic, we'd see it too. Even if we get to 14 teams in a CPL playing with twice the budget for salaries, we are still too thin for development. 

MLS is too thin. CPL helps though it is probably not quite a 2nd division, say its a tier and half to two tiers lower (on the basis of quality of play, in budget, it'd be 3-4th tier). If CPL grows and the quality begins to push up towards MLS, not just with the odd Cup result, but authentically; and if the CPL clubs decide to have academies. If salaries go up, so it begins to be attractive to play for these teams. And then if the entire tier of League One shifts upwards in quality, then you'd be starting to talk about something.

So yes, we have these rivalries and rib each other. Yes, I admit, I like to take shots at TFC because, mostly, the fans tend to overrate any kid that comes along, the hype is a bit much. But I know you can't ask any of the MLS clubs to produce quality pros, of the level to challenge for the NT, on a regular basis. Or better: you can ask, but you are probably asking too much, as no country in the world asks that much of just three pro clubs.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[narduch]

7 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The real point is that we can't sit here and expect three pro teams to produce quality from the academies, play them, play them to good results, and for those guys to go on to make a fundamental contribution to our national programme. It is too thin a foundation. So we are asking too much of all three MLS teams. And it is not even their mandate. MLS has a mandate from US Soccer to grow its development, in fact the Canadian clubs exist to serve that interest also.

Most countries have a core of 20-60 strong pro teams of a certain level, each doing their own thing, identifying local players, competing from a young age, with avid coaches, all certified. Even Scotland or Austria or Slovenia. So if you know how football works in any given country, you will know there are lower level academies are producing quality that can go pro. If Canada were able to have clubs at an equivalent, say, to a nation like Romania or Czech Republic, we'd see it too. Even if we get to 14 teams in a CPL playing with twice the budget for salaries, we are still too thin for development. 

MLS is too thin. CPL helps though it is probably not quite a 2nd division, say its a tier and half to two tiers lower (on the basis of quality of play, in budget, it'd be 3-4th tier). If CPL grows and the quality begins to push up towards MLS, not just with the odd Cup result, but authentically; and if the CPL clubs decide to have academies. If salaries go up, so it begins to be attractive to play for these teams. And then if the entire tier of League One shifts upwards in quality, then you'd be starting to talk about something.

So yes, we have these rivalries and rib each other. Yes, I admit, I like to take shots at TFC because, mostly, the fans tend to overrate any kid that comes along, the hype is a bit much. But I know you can't ask any of the MLS clubs to produce quality pros, of the level to challenge for the NT, on a regular basis. Or better: you can ask, but you are probably asking too much, as no country in the world asks that much of just three pro clubs.

There was a good article going around twitter the last few days about Japan.

They had 10 professional clubs in 1990. Today they have 60.

That is one of the reasons for their success today. I will see if I can find it.

When the CSA Dispute was at its hottest, quite a few posters on this forum dismissed the necessity of the CPL. That is a mistake in my opinion.

Edited December 3, 2022 by narduch

[BearcatSA]

3 hours ago, Bison44 said:

How many of the WC team actually did come up through a MLS academy??  Pantemis, Adekugbe, Fraser, Kaye, Davies....Crepeau is missing, but its not as much as you think.  Hasal, Henry, Choiniere, Nelsen, Rutty, Corbeanu, Akinola are on the fringes.  I'm sure i am missing some guys...

I think the Americans had four guys here developed just by the FC Dallas academy (McKennie, Acosta, Moore (I think?), and Ferreira, not including Pepi who was left off).  Good production there must make the Don happy.

Edited December 3, 2022 by BearcatSA