Joel Waterman

[BearcatSA]

6 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Not putting on Kennedy and Cornelius for 20 m vs Qatar, and Waterman for 5-10 today, poor management of the group.

The rest was okay, if you think Koleosho isn't committed maybe better not to showcase him yet to the States. Or even Spain.

If they really felt Waterman was in serious contention, they would have given him a look at CB between club mates Miller and Johnston or at RCB in place of Johnston as a sub.  In the words of Bob McCown, he's "just another guy" and would need to have injury absences happen in order for him to be in the WC squad. 

[costarg]

23 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

If they really felt Waterman was in serious contention, they would have given him a look at CB between club mates Miller and Johnston or at RCB in place of Johnston as a sub.  

Miller / Waterman / Johnston has already happened at club level, so technically Herdman didn't need to test or see that this window.  It's a natural and obvious fallback plan for WC.

[BearcatSA]

11 minutes ago, costarg said:

Miller / Waterman / Johnston has already happened at club level, so technically Herdman didn't need to test or see that this window.  It's a natural and obvious fallback plan for WC.

Then why not see how they look together at this level and against this calibre of opponent, especially Waterman?  Or seeing if Kennedy is capable of playing on the right or if Cornelius is capable of replicating the form he showed as the captain in the centre of a back three in the Olympic qualies?

I think the fallback plan is Hutch in the CB mix, not Waterman.

[Aird25]

7 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

Then why not see how they look together at this level and against this calibre of opponent, especially Waterman?  Or seeing if Kennedy is capable of playing on the right or if Cornelius is capable of replicating the form he showed as the captain in the centre of a back three in the Olympic qualies?

I think the fallback plan is Hutch in the CB mix, not Waterman.

For similar reasons the other 10 subs that didn't see minutes didn't get in?

[costarg]

35 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

Then why not see how they look together at this level and against this calibre of opponent, especially Waterman?  Or seeing if Kennedy is capable of playing on the right or if Cornelius is capable of replicating the form he showed as the captain in the centre of a back three in the Olympic qualies?

I think the fallback plan is Hutch in the CB mix, not Waterman.

I agree, I would've liked to see more of Cornelius and Kennedy throughout WCQ, and please no Henry at the WC.  I think we'd have to be insane to try Hutch at CB again, especially considering the rust and injury.

[narduch]

People are forgetting that FIFA has tightened the rules for subs in friendlies because it was being abused.

Its only a max of 6 now.

Plus as I've speculated Herdman was trying to give  his A team as much time together to gel.

The World Cup is not the same as qualifying with those brutal 3 matches in 7 days.

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

If they really felt Waterman was in serious contention, they would have given him a look at CB between club mates Miller and Johnston or at RCB in place of Johnston as a sub.  In the words of Bob McCown, he's "just another guy" and would need to have injury absences happen in order for him to be in the WC squad. 

This. 

I expect Vitoria will play all 3 games in the centre of defence. Kennedy reportedly was training there, so he could possibly be Vitoria's cover. We also know Henry can be cover for Vitoria, and I think he will be selected if he's healthy. I think Waterman is the contingency for Henry in the event he isn't fit however, which given his injury history, and long layoff with TFC, is very possible. And being the contingency for Henry, I think having him train and know the tactics was enough. Getting him on the field was not so important when plan A is for Vitoria to play all 3 games anyways. More important for Vitoria to play 180 minutes this window. That's my read on it. 

I liken Waterman to the backup keepers in this situation. They are both unlikely to play at the WC, so they come in to train this window and the friendly minutes go to Borjan, the guy who will actually play. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Obinna

[Macksam]

Great match but he was in pain after the Benteke challenge...collapsed after the match, looks like he was crying....I think he knows his 2022 is over and he's not partaking in the MLS playoffs or going to Qatar...poor guy.

[dyslexic nam]

4 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Great match but he was in pain after the Benteke challenge...collapsed after the match, looks like he was crying....I think he knows his 2022 is over and he's not partaking in the MLS playoffs or going to Qatar...poor guy.

Not sure I would read that much into it.  It was a shin on shin hit from what I saw so it could just be a really sore impact.  I am hoping it is a bad bruise but nothing more.  

[Macksam]

2 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Not sure I would read that much into it.  It was a shin on shin hit from what I saw so it could just be a really sore impact.  I am hoping it is a bad bruise but nothing more.  

I hope you're right bro.

[Gian-Luca]

Apparently Nancy said it’s just a bruise, according to reports on twitter- nothing broken

[VinceA]

He and Johnston are Montreal's nominations for Defender of the Year.

[DeRo_Is_King]

2 hours ago, VinceA said:

He and Johnston are Montreal's nominations for Defender of the Year.

Pretty ridiculous since Kamal Miller could easily be in the group. Very strong defensive core.

[Obinna]

Maybe they are trying to spread the recognition? Miller already got the Allstar nod. Otherwise, it's a strange decision. Happy for Waterman and Johnston, however.

[BearcatSA]

I hope they have a great playoff run with Waterman a key contributor to it.  He might still be able to get on the plane to Qatar.

[DeRo_Is_King]

23 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

I hope they have a great playoff run with Waterman a key contributor to it.  He might still be able to get on the plane to Qatar.

It boggles my mind how people would still consider Henry over Waterman for Qatar because of intangibles. We're thin at the back and need as much quality as we can get - regardless of whether they are expected to play or not. 

[Aird25]

4 minutes ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

It boggles my mind how people would still consider Henry over Waterman for Qatar because of intangibles. We're thin at the back and need as much quality as we can get - regardless of whether they are expected to play or not. 

Not to dump on Henry, but has he ever had a season as good as Waterman's current season? From what I recall, he's typically played fewer minutes and had less of an impact for worse teams. Form is important I imagine

[Obinna]

17 minutes ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

It boggles my mind how people would still consider Henry over Waterman for Qatar because of intangibles. We're thin at the back and need as much quality as we can get - regardless of whether they are expected to play or not. 

I totally see what you mean.

I reconcile this by comparing Henry and Waterman with Crepeau and St. Clair.

Many have said St. Clair should be the no. 2 based on form (over Crepeau), which is not-so-different than shouts for Waterman to be the no. 2 based on form (over Henry). I am sure we can poke holes in the analogy, but it's basically true.

For the keepers, Borjan is the no. 1, and for the middle CB position Vitoria is no. 1, so after that it doesn't really matter. And because it doesn't really matter, the intangibles are likely more important than we'd like. 

As long as they are healthy, Borjan will play 3 games and so will Vitoria. We have 3 games with comfortable breaks in between. This is not a CONCACAF WCQ situation, where 3-game windows made it infeasible for Vitoria to play every game. So, while I fully support Waterman over Henry, I get it when I frame it this way. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Obinna

[Obinna]

8 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Not to dump on Henry, but has he ever had a season as good as Waterman's current season? From what I recall, he's typically played fewer minutes and had less of an impact for worse teams. Form is important I imagine

Was pretty good in his last season for Vancouver, no? Maybe a stretch to say he's been as good as Waterman in 2022, but that's the season which comes to mind. 

[DeRo_Is_King]

7 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Not to dump on Henry, but has he ever had a season as good as Waterman's current season? From what I recall, he's typically played fewer minutes and had less of an impact for worse teams. Form is important I imagine

Not that I can remember. I mean, he has played at a high level in England and that is impressive, but it's kind of like the Kaye situation. Injuries and years of poor form really make me question why they're in the conversation for Qatar. I wish them well and hope they can turn things around, but not at the expense of the national team or our first WC in 36 years.

[Sal333]

15 minutes ago, Obinna said:

 

As long as they are healthy, Borjan will play 3 games and so will Vitoria. We have 3 games with comfortable breaks in between. This is not a CONCACAF WCQ situation, where 3-game windows made it infeasible for Vitoria to play every game. So, while I fully support Waterman over Henry, I get it when I frame it this way. 

I agree with most of your post except for the one glaring error. We're playing more than 3 games so who plays then?

[VinceA]

Waterman not playing at all tells me Herdman never had any interest in on him at the WC. His mind has been made up for months.

He just called him up so he could duck questions about his exclusion. Now he can say he wasn't up to snuff in training and no one can say otherwise.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Sal333 said:

I agree with most of your post except for the one glaring error. We're playing more than 3 games so who plays then?

It's a matter of players having rest between games, not a matter of the number of games themselves. As long as Vitoria has enough time to recover between games, he'll play 90 minutes. I believe Herdman would have played him 90 minutes during the 3-game qualifying windows if he could, but the quick turnarounds (and the travel) made that infeasible. In Qatar there is basically no travel, and although I haven't looked at the schedule closely, but I am pretty sure the gap between games will allow Vitoria to go 90 minutes in every match, including the friendly against Japan. That's 4 games and should we go further than that you just do what you can.

I don't think Herdman will bring Waterman over Henry so that he could use him for a knockout match we may not get to. And should Waterman get picked over Henry, I don't think Herdman would plan to use him over Vitoria in any group games anyways. I expect this to be Herman's line of thinking on the Waterman vs. Henry decision. I would personally feel better with Waterman, but I trust Herdman, and Henry never cost us points during the qualifiers, and he knows the group better.

I think the only way Waterman gets on is if Herdman and/or his staff deem Henry's fitness inadequate relative to Waterman AND he isn't convinced of someone like Kennedy in the middle of the CB. Let's keep in mind he's been training there with Canada, and even if Montreal make a deep run Kennedy would probably have the edge in game sharpness (again though, haven't looked at the schedule).

Whatever way we cut it, I think Waterman is on the outside looking in, unfortunately. 

 

[Obinna]

48 minutes ago, VinceA said:

Waterman not playing at all tells me Herdman never had any interest in on him at the WC. His mind has been made up for months.

He just called him up so he could duck questions about his exclusion. Now he can say he wasn't up to snuff in training and no one can say otherwise.

I don't know about this part. I think he genuinely wanted to see how Waterman would do in training. Whether or not he was up to snuff, we cannot say. With Waterman having an excellent season, I think Herdman saw an opportunity to bring him into camp specifically to see if he could be an alternative to Henry -- not because he's planning on dropping Henry, but because he understands Henry's fitness is questionable. Can never have too many options, right?

And putting Kennedy in the middle of the back 3 in training I believe is Herman looking for an alternative once again, just with a different player.

[VinceA]

38 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I don't know about this part. I think he genuinely wanted to see how Waterman would do in training. Whether or not he was up to snuff, we cannot say. With Waterman having an excellent season, I think Herdman saw an opportunity to bring him into camp specifically to see if he could be an alternative to Henry -- not because he's planning on dropping Henry, but because he understands Henry's fitness is questionable. Can never have too many options, right?

And putting Kennedy in the middle of the back 3 in training I believe is Herman looking for an alternative once again, just with a different player.

Maybe, but Herdman not even giving him 20 minutes against a poor Qatar to get his feet wet was telling for me.

In general I don't like how Herdman handles his defensive rotations, in that he doesn't. I worry it's going to bite us in the ass at the WC, but he has the benefit of the doubt for now.

Edited October 5, 2022 by VinceA