Joel Waterman

[dyslexic nam]

16 minutes ago, canuckgbp said:

I would like to see him rewarded with a callup for those friendlies. Must keep updating your resume and he is starting for a top team in the East. I'm not sure how big of a squad we will call for those games. 

I am in the Waterman over Henry camp. Henry can't get any significant minutes and hasn't for a long time now. We know what Henry brings with intangibles so that will probably be enough for Herdman.

Call me old fashioned but I like it when our players are playing real minutes lol. I believe Herdman issued that challenge to the players to find a good level and play. Will he keep someone off the flight if they fail that? idk. 

Yeah I am pretty quickly into the Waterman-over-Henry camp.  Vitoria isn’t a young guy - the possibility that he picks up an injury either at or before the WC is very real.   And if he goes down, the importance of our other CBs gets ramped up immensely.   I don’t want to be forced into a suboptimal back line formation because we don’t have the right personnel.  

I am not saying Waterman gets called to Qatar over Henry without any dress rehearsal. But I do think he should be given an audition in September. 
 

[Craig11rm]

I think I’m starting to prefer Waterman over Henry too. I think he’s better on the ball and he plays with Kamal, Johnston and Piette every week for one of the best teams in the league. Montreal do have 41 goals against though and that’s pretty average in MLS.

[Stoppage Time]

For September friendlies, Waterman, Koleosho (Unnamed Trialist is right), and Mitrovic need to be called, the latter's one time switch decision notwithstanding. Henry has not played for most of the MLS season so far except for small minutes here and there. I cannot imagine him as either physically or mentally match fit. Waterman and Kennedy could be in a bit of a battle if both are called. By the way, how is Cornelius faring these days?  

 

[Bison44]

Has Kennedy been playing this season??  

[narduch]

17 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Has Kennedy been playing this season??  

Not much.

[Stoppage Time]

2 hours ago, narduch said:

Not much.

True, Kennedy has not seen the field much so far this season. That is why Waterman, who plays week in and week out, may have a chance to displace his (tenuous) spot, as well as Henry's, on the CMNT. September is the time to see what Waterman can do with Les Rouges.

[Bison44]

45 minutes ago, Stoppage Time said:

True, Kennedy has not seen the field much so far this season. That is why Waterman, who plays week in and week out, may have a chance to displace his (tenuous) spot, as well as Henry's, on the CMNT. September is the time to see what Waterman can do with Les Rouges.

Yeah but the guy getting dropped for Waterman is usually henry...I was wondering if Kennedy has played any more than Henry, if we are dropping guys who havnt played much. I am more of a call an extra guy FFS, bring an extra CB and Koelshko/Jebbison etc...its like herdman pockets the extra perdiem if he doesnt call the full compliment of players into camp.  

Plus I am remembering lareya and Eustaquio walking into camp last spring after not playing much and not missing a beat.  

[narduch]

Kennedy has played a total if 85 minutes in 5 B2 games this season.

Plus 41 minutes in a Cup game

[cronaldo7]

I know Herdman is likely to keep the brotherhood in-tact and will pick a bunch of players who got us to the WC (even if they are out of form or not seeing the pitch) but you must draw the line somewhere. What kind of precedent does it set for guys on the outside looking in and for overall internal competition?

Waterman has come out of no where the past couple seasons and rightfully deserved a call-up in Sept and possibly already a ticket to Qatar (particularly IF the WC started next week).

Luckily we have the Sept to figure out how he blends in with our tactical identity, etc but we may have come to a point where he’s done enough to warrant being on the WC roster already. His competition, Henry and Kennedy, have weakened their chances of getting to Qatar.

I’m re-iterating what many have said above but internal competition elevates squads and I just hope Waterman is given a proper look because he certainly deserves it.

 

 

[dyslexic nam]

I don’t know how often it is mentioned, but he would also be the first guy (I think) to have come through CPL and make any sort of meaningful contribution to the Nats.  I know others have been called in (Didic comes to mind) but having a CPL alumni make it to a WC squad would be pretty good promotion for the league.  Even if he never saw the field, just having him in the group would be a big deal.  

Edited August 29, 2022 by dyslexic nam

[InglewoodJack]

I think Waterman is clear cut above Kennedy at this point. MLS is a better league than 2.Bundesliga, and CFM is a better team than Regensburg, Waterman is starting, Kennedy barely plays, etc. When we talk about "the brotherhood" and guys who got us there, I don't think all players are created equally, and it's fine if a couple guys get dropped, just like Fraser and Cornelius (IIRC?) got dropped at different points during the octo.

Also re: team identity, I know that playing together at club doesn't always impact playing together for country, but if Waterman gets called up, we're straight up starting Montreal's backline which has to mean something.

[Kadenge]

I said this before, but absent injuries, players like Waterman etc, need all star seasons to displace any of the regulars. Unfortunately he and others may have "arrived" a bit too late in the process and I think they understand the timing issue or can accept  it better than fans. JH will probably expand the squad for the Sept friendlies and we may see players like Waterman included but once again he  will keep things tight and want to go with his key group for the 2 games. The 25th  and/or  26th spot are going to young players is my expectation

[Aird25]

5 hours ago, Kadenge said:

I said this before, but absent injuries, players like Waterman etc, need all star seasons to displace any of the regulars. Unfortunately he and others may have "arrived" a bit too late in the process and I think they understand the timing issue or can accept  it better than fans. JH will probably expand the squad for the Sept friendlies and we may see players like Waterman included but once again he  will keep things tight and want to go with his key group for the 2 games. The 25th  and/or  26th spot are going to young players is my expectation

Herdman called 65 different players in 2021. There may be some flexibility in his roster selection

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

I think Waterman is clear cut above Kennedy at this point. MLS is a better league than 2.Bundesliga, and CFM is a better team than Regensburg, Waterman is starting, Kennedy barely plays, etc. When we talk about "the brotherhood" and guys who got us there, I don't think all players are created equally, and it's fine if a couple guys get dropped, just like Fraser and Cornelius (IIRC?) got dropped at different points during the octo.

Also re: team identity, I know that playing together at club doesn't always impact playing together for country, but if Waterman gets called up, we're straight up starting Montreal's backline which has to mean something.

Bundesliga 2 is, for many reasons I could elucidate, better than the Championship. Or as good and certainly not worse. So are you saying that MLS is clearly better than the Championship, that Laryea took a step down to sign for Notts Forest?

[InglewoodJack]

30 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Bundesliga 2 is, for many reasons I could elucidate, better than the Championship. Or as good and certainly not worse. So are you saying that MLS is clearly better than the Championship, that Laryea took a step down to sign for Notts Forest?

Genuinely curious why you consider 2.bundesliga better than championship. 

[Floortom]

3 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Genuinely curious why you consider 2.bundesliga better than championship. 

Oh god please delete this 

[Kadenge]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

Herdman called 65 different players in 2021. There may be some flexibility in his roster selection

We were still playing some minnows in 2021 and then a depleted  GC squad  before the real work started for WCQ vs Suriname.  The roster has been fairly stable since that game

[MauditYvon]

14 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Genuinely curious why you consider 2.bundesliga better than championship. 

My two cents, 18 teams versus 24. Smaller squads.

[MauditYvon]

At the end, it’s probably equal. Than you have Ligue 2. 

[kacbru]

3 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Herdman called 65 different players in 2021. There may be some flexibility in his roster selection

Does that include the 60 on the provisional list for 2021 Gold Cup?  If so, those are names he had to put down, so not much flexibility.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

Genuinely curious why you consider 2.bundesliga better than championship. 

For one: it features the 19th to the 38th best teams in Germany. If you look at them, many veritable powerhouses, as occurs in other strong 2nd tiers.

The Championship features the 21st to the 44th best teams in the England tiers. So basically, there are six teams in the Championship, 25% of them, who would be in third division in Germany. B3.

It is a filler league designed to set up a bunch of mediocre teams with the chance at EPL. And the cost is fixture congestion, players who can't recover properly or players you choose basically because they can handle the ridiculous pace, and a much larger % of weak and by midseason irrelevant teams in no man's land. 

Indeed, these 24-team divisions in England lower tiers are the most overstuffed filler leagues in the world. And that seriously lowers their level.

Now we'll see those arguing Championship salaries as proof of something, but I have my answer ready, because I understand the difference between cost and value.

 

[An Observer]

I think there are a couple of things people are missing in this debate.  One, Waterman is a RCB and Kennedy is a LCB. I don’t think they are replacements for each other.  Kennedy is a back up for Miller which I don’t see Waterman being able to do.  The question is whether Waterman can back up Vitoria in the middle which he probably could (and possibly Kennedy could as well). Waterman can back up Vitoria when we play 4 at the back or Johnston when we play 3.  Therefore, he is more a replacement on the squad for Henry.  As Henry isn’t really playing, I can see why people think Waterman is the better option.  However, Henry offers something that no one else on the squad can do which is match up physically against someone like Lukaku.  Therefore, the question is do you bring someone who is not playing regularly to match up against a player like that over someone who is and is having a break out year but would be bullied by that type of player.  I think it probably comes down to whether you think Vitoria and Miller can do the job in the first game or not.  
As the squads are 26 players, I wouldn’t be surprised if both Henry and Waterman make it which gives Herdman options and injury cover.  
As for Kennedy, I think his competition is more Cornelius who is playing regularly.  But Kennedy also gives you the option of being able to play LB. This could be very useful if Adekugbe goes down. Sure Laryea can play LB but you might want to replace him if you are defending a lead as he isn’t the best defensively and leave Davies farther up field which gives the opposition much to think about on a counter due to his speed and on the ball ability. 

Therefore, I probably take both Waterman and Henry, keep Kennedy if you believe his form is good enough, which means only bringing one of Koleosho or Corbeanu. I probably would go with the former there as he brings something different than we have unless Corbeanu plays himself into the side over the next couple of months at Blackpool. 

[Aird25]

Why is the question Waterman vs Henry, when it’s MacNaughton keeping Henry out of the lineup at club level?

[A_Gagne]

respect Henry and his performances for the nats in recent years have been reliable and dare I say he's even demonstrated some leadership and contributed to the team's grit and don't back down from anyone mentality. On the other hand, it's becoming harder to keep backing him when he's playing so little. There seems to be something about him/his game that doesn't inspire his club managers to trust him on a week-in-week-out basis. It would be nice if we had more games to give Waterman and MacNaughton a run out, but realistically I think Herdman still goes with Henry for his leadership and dressing room intangibles as well as experience with the CMNT and in high pressure games, but the fact that he's not seeming minutes isn't making that an easy call.

[kacbru]

34 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Why is the question Waterman vs Henry, when it’s MacNaughton keeping Henry out of the lineup at club level?

MacNaughton looks out of his depth - he always seems to be caught in between and uncertain to pressure or lay back to cover. As a result, both are ineffective. Maybe he's trying to do too much? I don't understand what Bradley sees there.