Joel Waterman

[InglewoodJack]

7 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

For one: it features the 19th to the 38th best teams in Germany. If you look at them, many veritable powerhouses, as occurs in other strong 2nd tiers.

The Championship features the 21st to the 44th best teams in the England tiers. So basically, there are six teams in the Championship, 25% of them, who would be in third division in Germany. B3.

It is a filler league designed to set up a bunch of mediocre teams with the chance at EPL. And the cost is fixture congestion, players who can't recover properly or players you choose basically because they can handle the ridiculous pace, and a much larger % of weak and by midseason irrelevant teams in no man's land. 

Indeed, these 24-team divisions in England lower tiers are the most overstuffed filler leagues in the world. And that seriously lowers their level.

Now we'll see those arguing Championship salaries as proof of something, but I have my answer ready, because I understand the difference between cost and value.

 

They do have less teams, that's fair, and there are some weak clubs in the championship, but German and English teams are not ranked the same, and the 19th best team in Germany is not necessarily better than the 21st best team in England. Not that club rankings are the be all end all, but FWIW 538 has the best 2.bundesliga team as Hamburger SV, rank 192, lowest team Braunshweig, 557. Best Championship team as Norwich, ranked 105, worst is Birmingham, 405. On aggregate, they rate ECL as the 11th best league in the world, MLS as 15th, and 2.bundesliga as 26th. Many second bundesliga teams could probably get promoted to the premier league while some championship teams would drop to the 3.bundesliga, but on average, I think the quality of championship is better than that of the second bundesliga.

Beyond that though, Waterman plays for a top MLS club as a starter, while Scott Kennedy doesn't play much for his team, who typically sits near relegation in the 2.bundesliga. I would agree with you if we were talking about a player who played less minutes for say, Hamburger, Darmstadt, St. Pauli (my personal favourite club in all of Europe) vs. a starter for Sporting KC, Houston, KC or like Huddersfield or any other ECL .

[Unnamed Trialist]

9 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

They do have less teams, that's fair, and there are some weak clubs in the championship, but German and English teams are not ranked the same, and the 19th best team in Germany is not necessarily better than the 21st best team in England. Not that club rankings are the be all end all, but FWIW 538 has the best 2.bundesliga team as Hamburger SV, rank 192, lowest team Braunshweig, 557. Best Championship team as Norwich, ranked 105, worst is Birmingham, 405. On aggregate, they rate ECL as the 11th best league in the world, MLS as 15th, and 2.bundesliga as 26th. Many second bundesliga teams could probably get promoted to the premier league while some championship teams would drop to the 3.bundesliga, but on average, I think the quality of championship is better than that of the second bundesliga.

Beyond that though, Waterman plays for a top MLS club as a starter, while Scott Kennedy doesn't play much for his team, who typically sits near relegation in the 2.bundesliga. I would agree with you if we were talking about a player who played less minutes for say, Hamburger, Darmstadt, St. Pauli (my personal favourite club in all of Europe) vs. a starter for Sporting KC, Houston, KC or like Huddersfield or any other ECL .

The ratings are dumb because 2nd tiers never play each other, there is zero basis for comparison. 

At least if you take trophies as a gauge, CL, Europa, it's clear Spanish club football is ahead of English and English ahead of German. 

But it's true Regensburg isn't a big team, they're modest and probably more suited to 2nd tier. But if Kennedy is playing he is in a solid place for our NT. 

I once saw Dynamo Dresden v St Pauli in a full stadium, with 5000 visiting fans, in an amazing Dresden venue built for the WC. Dynamo, a powerful club, is back in B3 btw. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[InglewoodJack]

2 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The ratings are dumb because 2nd tiers never play each other, there is zero basis for comparison. 

At least if you take trophies as a gauge, CL, Europa, it's clear Spanish club football is ahead of English and English ahead of German. 

But it's true Regensburg isn't a big team, they're modest and probably more suited to 2nd tier. But if Kennedy is playing he is in a solid place for our NT. 

I once saw Dynamo Dresden v St Pauli in a full stadium, with 5000 visiting fans, in an amazing Dresden venue built for the WC. Dynamo, a powerful club, is back in B3 btw. 

I can't comment much on Spanish second div as it's probably the one I'm least familiar with, so that may be true. I take ratings with a grain of salt because ultimately you can't compare an MLS team, a Chinese team, a Bundesliga team and a South African team, yet they attempt to do, but when there's so much disparity between the leagues it must mean something, and the more important comparison to me is CF Montreal > Regensburg, and also if we're going to circle back on Richie Laryea, Nottingham > TFC.

 

Either way, when we get excited about our players going to second divisions in europe, it's with the thought that it will propel them to the first division eventually. If Scott Kennedy maxes out as a 2. Bundesliga player and Waterman as an important starter for a top (at least currently) MLS team, that's cool, but neither are going to win us actual world cup games, but I think Waterman's playing time nudges him ahead (not considering their different positions), considering the players at our current disposal. Same with the championship league, it would be cool for Richie Laryea to become a solid Championship player, just like it would be cool for him to be an elite TFC player on a team that could win the league, but the message between the lines is that we hope(d) that he impressed enough with Forest to get a spot on their team in the Premier league, or impress enough that a better team picks him up, and he gets his shot with a Premier League (or other top 5/Champions League team). Same with a guy like Corbeanu- it's awesome that he's seeing success with Blackpool, but if that's where he maxes out,that doesn't change the world for us, we hope that this propels him to a permanent spot in the Premier league, or maybe a move to the Bundesliga, etc.

 

That St. Pauli match sounds like an awesome time. The first time I ever went to Europe, I hopped off the train in Hamburg, there was a pub playing the St. Pauli game, it was probably the first time I watched a club soccer game in my life, and the crowd looked awesome. I ended up staying in St. Pauli for a few days, and fell in love with the neighbourhood/club culture.

[Unnamed Trialist]

47 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I can't comment much on Spanish second div as it's probably the one I'm least familiar with, so that may be true. I take ratings with a grain of salt because ultimately you can't compare an MLS team, a Chinese team, a Bundesliga team and a South African team, yet they attempt to do, but when there's so much disparity between the leagues it must mean something, and the more important comparison to me is CF Montreal > Regensburg, and also if we're going to circle back on Richie Laryea, Nottingham > TFC.

 

Either way, when we get excited about our players going to second divisions in europe, it's with the thought that it will propel them to the first division eventually. If Scott Kennedy maxes out as a 2. Bundesliga player and Waterman as an important starter for a top (at least currently) MLS team, that's cool, but neither are going to win us actual world cup games, but I think Waterman's playing time nudges him ahead (not considering their different positions), considering the players at our current disposal. Same with the championship league, it would be cool for Richie Laryea to become a solid Championship player, just like it would be cool for him to be an elite TFC player on a team that could win the league, but the message between the lines is that we hope(d) that he impressed enough with Forest to get a spot on their team in the Premier league, or impress enough that a better team picks him up, and he gets his shot with a Premier League (or other top 5/Champions League team). Same with a guy like Corbeanu- it's awesome that he's seeing success with Blackpool, but if that's where he maxes out,that doesn't change the world for us, we hope that this propels him to a permanent spot in the Premier league, or maybe a move to the Bundesliga, etc.

 

That St. Pauli match sounds like an awesome time. The first time I ever went to Europe, I hopped off the train in Hamburg, there was a pub playing the St. Pauli game, it was probably the first time I watched a club soccer game in my life, and the crowd looked awesome. I ended up staying in St. Pauli for a few days, and fell in love with the neighbourhood/club culture.

A memorable, massive banner from the St Pauli fans, "Wilkommen in Exarchia".

I'm trash talking a bit I admit--the other argument is that with so many teams in the Championship, you have this intense battle for EPL right before your eyes, with so many teams, fan bases, players, and that is the competitive edge the other 2nd tiers don't have. That is why the whole Nottingham Forest business bothers me, because they are basically saying none of those great players in that great league that got them to the EPL are good enough for the EPL. So you could argue it's them devaluing the Championship by offloading most of their roster.

People should give me credit for not blasting the Spanish horn for once and arguing the German B2 and B3 are better than other lower divisions. 

Last year Schalke and Werder Bremen promoted to this year's Bundesliga. From the Championship, Fulham, Bournemouth and NF. You can't really say those English teams are better than the promoting German sides. Mind you, from Spain, Valladolid, Almeria and Girona, even more modest.

Was just checking stadiums: in Championship, only one club has a stadium larger than 35,000, in other words, a stadium of the size an EPL club should have.

 

[dyslexic nam]

8 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Why is the question Waterman vs Henry, when it’s MacNaughton keeping Henry out of the lineup at club level?

Why would we limit the options to TFC defenders?   We have a guy who isn’t able to get any meaningful minutes in an MLS team with a terrible defensive record.   If we are considering replacing him for the WC, it wouldn’t just be in consideration of the one guy ahead of him at his club team - it would be in consideration of the whole CB pool.  

Edited August 30, 2022 by dyslexic nam

[RS]

8 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Why is the question Waterman vs Henry, when it’s MacNaughton keeping Henry out of the lineup at club level?

Chris Mavinga is keeping Henry out of the TFC lineup, not MacNaughton.

[RS]

27 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Why would we limit the options to TFC defenders?   We have a guy who isn’t able to get any meaningful minutes in an MLS team with a terrible defensive record.   If we are considering replacing him for the WC, it wouldn’t just be in consideration of the one guy ahead of him at his club team - it would be in consideration of the whole CB pool.  

Your point makes sense, although I think it would realistically take an injury to keep Henry off the World Cup roster at this point. He's too entrenched for Herdman to remove.

All of this talk is really about post-WC, in which I think Waterman is first in line to replace Henry.

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 minutes ago, RS said:

Chris Mavinga is keeping Henry out of the TFC lineup, not MacNaughton.

Yes, but objectively speaking, Henry not playing: any guy who comes in mid-season to any club will have problems getting into a lineup easily, unless there is a major injury or the like.

And then, even though TFC defense is not automatically better, the offense and possession play is better, and that takes pressure off the back line. Getting a goal up means being able to stay more compact defending, for example. 

The mid season arrival and the boom of the Italian imports makes it harder for him. The whole "he's not good enough for TFC and can't break into the line-up" has to come with a few standard caveats. 

[RS]

3 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Yes, but objectively speaking, Henry not playing: any guy who comes in mid-season to any club will have problems getting into a lineup easily, unless there is a major injury or the like.

And then, even though TFC defense is not automatically better, the offense and possession play is better, and that takes pressure off the back line. Getting a goal up means being able to stay more compact defending, for example. 

The mid season arrival and the boom of the Italian imports makes it harder for him. The whole "he's not good enough for TFC and can't break into the line-up" has to come with a few standard caveats. 

I agree with all of that, and if Henry is around for the next TFC preseason he'll have a better shot at winning a spot.

That being said, the World Cup is before then and Henry's not been playing. It's rightfully a concern for many here, but like I said I think he's too entrenched to remove him from the roster at this point (especially with squads being 26 players instead of the usual 23).

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 minutes ago, RS said:

I agree with all of that, and if Henry is around for the next TFC preseason he'll have a better shot at winning a spot.

That being said, the World Cup is before then and Henry's not been playing. It's rightfully a concern for many here, but like I said I think he's too entrenched to remove him from the roster at this point (especially with squads being 26 players instead of the usual 23).

I know saying this is very bad luck but I have garlic cloves hanging over my head as I write this while knocking on wood and spitting three times: we have no major injuries affecting anyone even in the longest roster, Tajon and Atiba are getting over their minor ones, and even Wotherspoon is getting healthy.

That means, playing or not, like Henry they are training and we suppose they are close to game shape.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[dyslexic nam]

21 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I know saying this is very bad luck but I have garlic cloves hanging over my head as I write this while knocking on wood and spitting three times: we have no major injuries affecting anyone even in the longest roster, Tajon and Atiba are getting over their minor ones, and even Wotherspoon is getting healthy.

That means, playing or not, like Henry they are training and we suppose they are close to game shape.

You aren’t supposed to vocalize that.  
 

Now you’ve gone and done it. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

You aren’t supposed to vocalize that.  
 

Now you’ve gone and done it. 

Do Canadian soccer fans have superstitions?

My first 5-6 games at Camp Nou were all draws and losses, I was convinced it was me.

I used to watch Barça in bars near where I lived when it was moved over to Canal+ and if we lost an important match in that place, I never returned. 

I also used to wrap the tv at home with a scarf, and maybe put other related souvenirs on top, for the clásico. As I have not been doing that for years, I pretty well blame myself for everything, including the billion $ debt.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[dyslexic nam]

Just now, Unnamed Trialist said:

Do Canadian soccer fans have superstitions?

My first 5-6 games at Camp Nou were all draws and losses, I was convinced it was me.

I used to watch Barça in bars near where I lived when it was moved over to Canal+ and if we lost an important match in a bar, I never returned to that place. 

I also used to wrap the tv at home with a scarf, and maybe put other related souvenirs on top, for the clásico. As I have not been doing that for years, I pretty well blame myself for everything, including the billion $ debt.

I am not superstitious.  

But after wearing my supporters shirt for the first few undefeated games of WCQ, I didn’t wash it and made sure I wore it religiously for every remaining game of the qualifying cycle.  And then we qualified for the WC for the first time in decades.  

That isn’t superstition - that is science.  
 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am not superstitious.  

But after wearing my supporters shirt for the first few undefeated games of WCQ, I didn’t wash it and made sure I wore it religiously for every remaining game of the qualifying cycle.  And then we qualified for the WC for the first time in decades.  

That isn’t superstition - that is science.  
 

Don't wash it ever, and keep it hidden so no one at home accidently washes it and screws up a beautiful thing for an entire country.

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

If we are considering replacing him for the WC, it wouldn’t just be in consideration of the one guy ahead of him at his club team - it would be in consideration of the whole CB pool.  

That's kind of the point I was making with my post. Why is everyone arguing that it's either Waterman or Henry that makes the squad, when there are other CBs in the pool that are also having better club seasons that Henry. MacNaughton is just the obvious example because he's being chosen ahead of Henry at club level. I understand that Henry has been with the Canada squad for a long time now, but he was being selected until now because he was the best option. I'm not so sure he is anymore, but I think the decision will come down to what qualities Herdman is looking for, because they're all fairly different players

[Ivan]

2 hours ago, RS said:

Chris Mavinga is keeping Henry out of the TFC lineup, not MacNaughton.

This.  Although McNaughton made a couple errors against Charlotte, one of which almost cost a goal and Mavinga seemed to get a little banged up during the same game.  With two games this week, maybe Henry will get a chance?  Although O'Neill is also still around and seems to get called upon before Henry as well. Not that I am wishing any ill will upon McNaughton.  I don't care about Mavinga or O'Neill TBH, although Mavinga stepped up his game since Henry arrived.   

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am not superstitious.  

But after wearing my supporters shirt for the first few undefeated games of WCQ, I didn’t wash it and made sure I wore it religiously for every remaining game of the qualifying cycle.  And then we qualified for the WC for the first time in decades.  

That isn’t superstition - that is science.  
 

You're a trooper. Nothing makes me smell more than the apprehension of watching soccer.

[Bison44]

45 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

That's kind of the point I was making with my post. Why is everyone arguing that it's either Waterman or Henry that makes the squad, when there are other CBs in the pool that are also having better club seasons that Henry. MacNaughton is just the obvious example because he's being chosen ahead of Henry at club level. I understand that Henry has been with the Canada squad for a long time now, but he was being selected until now because he was the best option. I'm not so sure he is anymore, but I think the decision will come down to what qualities Herdman is looking for, because they're all fairly different players

I think they are saying henry because thats the guy they dont like and he isnt playing.  Kennedy isnt playing much either but no one mentions him being dropped.  And I get that all 3 arent interchangeable, and all 3 can play slightly different roles, but realistically if the 3 games go well, Henry, Kennedy and whoever a hypothetical extra CB might not even play eh?  

Mcnaughton is playing, but its on a very leaky defense, and this is his first year at a MLS level.  Waterman has more experience and he is playing on a better defense/team with other CMNT defenders.  And Henry not playing might be more that he just came over and (I think RS mentioned this) that Bradley doesnt trust a Mavinga/Henry partnership ie both aggressive types.  Personally I dont think we really need to drop a CB to make room for a extra Waterman/Corenelius/Mcnaughton etc etc.  If Herdman has a couple extra roster slots, one of them should be an extra defender...just in case.  

[VinceA]

People need to stop thinking what they would do and starting thinking about what Herdman will do. Henry ain't getting dropped unless he gets injured.

[Bison44]

14 minutes ago, VinceA said:

People need to stop thinking what they would do and starting thinking about what Herdman will do. Henry ain't getting dropped unless he gets injured.

Herdman will prob call 3 guys that are injured and take the Campanga kid, total actual players 21.  

[dyslexic nam]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Don't wash it ever, and keep it hidden so no one at home accidently washes it and screws up a beautiful thing for an entire country.

It seems like there must be some “No sex til the hex” equivalent for this.  Unfortunately “laundry” does rhyme with a lot.  Maybe “B-O til we go!”  
Maybe not. 

[Kent]

13 hours ago, RS said:

Your point makes sense, although I think it would realistically take an injury to keep Henry off the World Cup roster at this point. He's too entrenched for Herdman to remove.

All of this talk is really about post-WC, in which I think Waterman is first in line to replace Henry.

I don't have an opinion on Henry vs Waterman, since I haven't been watching Montreal games and Henry hasn't been getting playing time, so I haven't been watching either of them play. But is Henry really that entrenched? He's not exactly first on the team sheet. He played in 5 out of our 14 octagonal games, and was subbed out of 2 of those before the 70th minute.

That being said, I guess you could argue that he played the middle game of 3 game windows consistently (only exception is the January/February window where he played game number 3). So maybe he is destined to play against Croatia.

[A_Gagne]

23 hours ago, kacbru said:

MacNaughton looks out of his depth - he always seems to be caught in between and uncertain to pressure or lay back to cover. As a result, both are ineffective. Maybe he's trying to do too much? I don't understand what Bradley sees there. 

My guess: It's a salary cap league which means you always need 2-3 guys on the roster who are way over performing their salary cap hit. These players do so for a couple of seasons and then resign for what they're actually worth, but then hopefully you've got a couple more guy's on the roster over performing their salaries, and the cycle repeats. I'm not sure what MacNaughton's deal terms are (salary/contract length), but I'm going to guess it's not much and includes a couple of good old fashion MLS "club options", and I'm further guessing Bradley sees something in him where he figures he can invest one year in to develop him into a reliable player, and get a couple more years out of him as an underpaid starter.

[Aird25]

9 hours ago, A_Gagne said:

My guess: It's a salary cap league which means you always need 2-3 guys on the roster who are way over performing their salary cap hit. These players do so for a couple of seasons and then resign for what they're actually worth, but then hopefully you've got a couple more guy's on the roster over performing their salaries, and the cycle repeats. I'm not sure what MacNaughton's deal terms are (salary/contract length), but I'm going to guess it's not much and includes a couple of good old fashion MLS "club options", and I'm further guessing Bradley sees something in him where he figures he can invest one year in to develop him into a reliable player, and get a couple more years out of him as an underpaid starter.

I'm pretty certain he'll be on a relatively cheap MLS contract considering what he was likely making at Pacific. That might explain why he was signed, but not why he's a starter though. His defensive stats are actually pretty good. He leads the team, or is amongst the team leaders, in aerials won, clearances, blocks, interceptions, offsides won etc. He doesn't foul all that much, and he's almost never dribbled past.

[Bison44]

Boy its great when the stats back up what you see with your eyes.  For once its nice to be on the other side of the arguement..ie why does the f$%ing TFC manager play this dude???  With jeckyll and hyde Mavinga on a upswing lately, and the M+M partnership going decent...why not keep the party going??  I dont see Oniel being a big upgrade... if at all, and Henry will have to wait his turn to get some minutes.