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CPL new teams speculation

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8 hours ago, Ansem said:

It's easier to go after the Fury than MLS due to the "Single entity" nature of the league.

It's very easy for all parties to raise that point, certainly from MLS and the 3 clubs.

There are other difference too, but these have been pointed out ad nauseum (salaries differ greatly between CPL and MLS but are much closer between USL and CPL, level of  play is different between CPL and MLS but ismuch closer between USL and CPL, etc.).  For some reason they get ignored and he pretends that any action taken on Fury must also apply to the 3 MLS teams.  

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I would say that if you take the attendance or expected salary from all the Canadian clubs, put it in a table, you have what looks like any other league in the world and a healthy one at that.

If CONCACAF or FIFA get involved with the Fury, I would think MLS would eventually follow.

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1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

None of the other things make a blind bit of difference in terms of FIFA's regulations on this but carry on wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

The FIFA Statutes are silent on what constitutes "exceptional circumstances" so you claiming that significant disparities in pay or level of play make no difference is completely speculative. 

Article 20 Confederations

2)  Any Association, League or club that is affiliated to a Member cannot belong to another Member or participate in competitions
on the territory of another Member without the authorisation of its current and prospective Members and of FIFA, except in exceptional
circumstances.

If you can point to the criteria used, please do so. 

 

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Posted (edited)

We now have a D1 coast-to-coast pro league and teams competing in CONCACAF competition on that basis. There's no obvious reason why any Canadian team should be in a USSF sanctioned league at this point other than respecting pre-existing arrangements. The number of exceptions that FIFA have allowed over the years on this are very limited. Even when a domestic league is quite weak, permission is seldom given for a team to move to a league in a neighbouring country with a stronger level of competition because that's not enough for circumstances to be viewed as exceptional. It tends to only be microstates like Monaco, San Marino, Lichtenstein and Andorra that get permission in a European context or a team has to be very close to a border and effectively catering for people on both sides of it.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot

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Posted (edited)

There is the oft referred to 'grandfathering in' option. It is most notable in Wales, with several teams remaining in the English system having played there for upwards of 90 years. Initially it was agreed that teams in the "the football league" (aka top 4 divisions) were allowed to stay while Bangor City, Barry Town, Caernarfon Town, Colwyn Bay, Merthyr Tydfil, Newport, Newtown, and Rhyl were all told they had to switch. While just three switched right away, only two of the eight are still in the English system now (Wrexham is also there despite having been relegated out of the top 4 divisions over a decade ago, but Newport County is in League Two, so perhaps they cancel each other out in a way).

The point being that there is a precedent both for grandfathering and for only grandfathering those who are playing at a higher level. I also think this is worth noting:

Seasons in current league up to, but not including, the first season of the CPL (i.e. 2019):
Toronto FC - 12
Vancouver Whitecaps - 8
Montreal Impact - 7
Ottawa Fury - 2

One of those stands out as not having particularly much of a leg to stand on with respect to being grandfathered. 
 

Edited by Viruk42

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Posted (edited)

You conveniently leave out the Fury's three NASL seasons. You are also neglecting to mention that leaving the lower level teams out from the grandfather clause in a Welsh context didn't stand up to legal challenge. Newport County are currently in the Football League and Merthyr are in the English seventh tier. Think the rest are all back in the Welsh setup but it took many years before some of them decided to do it by their own choice rather than being forced.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot

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1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

You conveniently leave out the Fury's three NASL seasons. You are also neglecting to mention that leaving the lower level teams out from the grandfather clause in a Welsh context didn't stand up to legal challenge. 

It's not about convenience, the NASL is a different league, there's no grandfathering necessary there. But if you'd like we could add time in professional US leagues:

Vancouver Whitecaps: 32 seasons
Montreal Impact: 25 seasons (on hiatus in 1999)
Toronto FC: 12 seasons (if you count the Lynx, which I wouldn't, it would be 22)
Ottawa Fury: 5 seasons

Is that better? One of them still stands out as having spent an insignificant amount of time relative to the others.

And yes, the court ruling meant that Welsh teams who stuck it out in the English pyramid were able to stay there. Of course, they were forced to play home games in England for three full seasons before the decision came down - be interesting to see whether the Fury get more fans if they play their games in Ogdensburg. Furthermore the legal precedent is fairly meaningless, coming in a completely different jurisdiction (for one thing, as youllneverwalkalone pointed out, the UK is just one country in a legal sense, even if it's 4 FIFA nations) while the soccer association precedent of only grandfathering in higher level teams is relevant. 

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Newport County are currently in the Football League and Merthyr are in the English seventh tier. Think the rest are all back in the Welsh setup but it took many years before some of them decided to do it by their own choice rather than being forced.

So if you will read what I wrote, you will see that I covered this already in saying "only two of the eight are still in the English system now (Wrexham is also there despite having been relegated out of the top 4 divisions over a decade ago, but Newport County is in League Two, so perhaps they cancel each other out in a way)." Merthyr is technically not the same team as in the 1990s, having gone bankrupt and reformed, but I'm not sure that matters one way or another.

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Twice in the last twelve months you have been absolutely convinced that the Fury were about to be forced into CanPL by first the CSA and then CONCACAF and have been very vocal about it. At some point you should take note of the way that this is not unfolding as you expected and reexamine your basic assumptions.

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Stop acting dumb, reports from source on the timeliness of CONCACAF and notice required to leave USL has been raised enough time

You're talking nonsense with "grandfathering". Let it go

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The only reason that the CSA and Concacaf are not pressing the issue is because they see no reason to push Fury's back to the wall. Any further. 

They already did what had to be done, let them know that exceptionality could not be defended; and they assume that the Fury FO is not totally stupid. Stupid enough to close down the team instead of playing in CPL.

All this business about "grandfathering" a team that is five years old in American leagues--that is probably illegal don't you think @Ozzie_the_parrot ? I mean endengering at such a young age?

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If Concacaf does not sanction the Fury for USL, why would the CanPL let them into their league after everything the Fury has said and done?  If the CanPL refuse the Fury, the Fury will die and CanPL will be free to put a fresh ownership group in Ottawa who will be willing to be a true partner.  Fresh start. 

At this stage, nothing would surprise me.

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Someone tell me if this has already been discussed ...

FIFA regulations for sanctioning a club to play in its own country are (presumably) based on the European model of open pyramid. That is, a club could go back to its own country’s league with minimal financial overhead. 

FIFA and CONCACAF may be treading lightly with Fury because Fury MAY have a ligitimate case for undo financial harm. That is, CanPL wants and entry fee (I’ve read $8M?), so Fury could flip the argument and say “Great, we’ll play, but FIFA pays the expansion fee, or the blood of our demise is (legally) on your hands.”

Conversely, CanPL would not want to wave the fee (why should they?), so they would rather stay clear of this mess and wait until either OSEG finds the cash, or some other group in Ottawa does.

I’m thinking there’s a flaw in that argument, but I can’t see it yet ...

 

 

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I'll play.  As I see it....

For Ottawa Fury FC to participate in the upcoming 2020 USL Championship season they are required, by the USL, to receive sanctioning from Canada Soccer.   

If Ottawa Fury FC does not receive sanctioning from Canada Soccer for the 2020 USL Championship season USL will, for their own reasons, not allow Ottawa Fury FC to participate in the 2020 USL Championship season. 

So, the 1st party (USL) has put conditions on the 2nd party (Ottawa Fury FC) for participation in their league that requires a 3rd party (Canada Soccer) to act.   Act is a verb.  That's important.  Which gets us to this legal responsibility nonsense.

Canada Soccer are honouring their commitment to sanction Ottawa Fury FC for the 2019 USL Championship season.  Yes?

Good.  And now we're done.

Why?  Because an agreement between two parties cannot force a third outside party to act against its will.  Because-we're-not-slaves.

Any financial harm brought upon the 2nd party (Ottawa Fury FC) is being done by an act of the 1st party (USL).  The USL will by its actions be removing Ottawa Fury FC from their league. As per the agreement between those two parties if certain conditions could not be met.

That Canada Soccer has something of value to USL is because that decision was made by USL and they made that decision for their own reasons. 

Individual members ability to meet the artificial conditioins of participation in the private business enterprise that is the USL is not the responsiblity of Canada Soccer.  Outside of the above mentioned sanctioning for Ottawa Fury FC for the 2019 USL Championship season.  Which will be ending in 6 or 8 weeks I believe. 

As to this rubbish that since Canada Soccer provided the sanctioning in the past so IT HAS To keep providing sanctioning in the future.  Good luck with that.   No it doesn't.  Just ask my boss how he felt when after 20 years of renting a property and building up a market presence the owners didn't offer a lease renewal and we where required, at great expense, to relocate one of our branches.  And there wasn't a damned thing he could do about it.  The agreement between the parties was forfilled.  It had ended.  For their own reasons one of the parties didn't wish for a new agreement so there was none.  Case closed. 

Like a wrote in another topic, I've had too much coffee this AM.          

 

 

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Posted (edited)

^

1. If the MLS franchises have a case for an exception then Ottawa Fury also have a case based on league longevity alone.

2. The "third party" CSA has to act regardless, to either approve or reject the application for sanction. If they reject it they had better have a good reason or they could certainly be subject to legal action. And if their reason is based on the assumption that a 7 team league that has been around for one year is equivalent to the 36 team USL (Championship level only) that has been around for much longer, I'd say they are on thin ice.

Edited by Lofty

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Posted (edited)

^

1.  I'm quite sure Ottawa Fury FC are making the USL case to Canada Soccer along a broad number of tracks.  They'd be negligent if they did otherwise.    

2.   Who said they are continuing to offer sanctioning applications to USL franchises?  I fully expect Canada Soccer will meet its current commitments and if it finds value in USL in Canada for 2020 the past practice of offering applications for sanctioning will continue.  If Canada Soccer does not find value in USL in Canada for 2020 that service will have to be discontinued.  There will be no application to act upon.

Ottawa Fury FC may even find the terms attached to the new application for sanctioning are a bit too rich for their blood and not even bother.  That's a decision they'll have to make upon seeing the 2020 Application.

USL has decided that Canada Soccer has something of value to USL, the opportunity for sanctioning, so Canada Soccer needs something of value from USL in return.  Cash would be nice and simple but failing that there are other things that are a lot less black & white.  When one party or the other decides there isn't value in that relationship there won't be a relationship.  Nothing sinister there, that's just business.

Just to be clear I'm using 2020 as a prop, could just as easily be 2021, 2022 etc.  Also to be clear so far as I'm concerned Ottawa can stay in USL as long as it can afford to.  Just irritated by the suggestion that Canada Soccer will be forced into maintaining the status quo by the courts, placed in suspended animation,  because of the buisness decisions of outside parties.  You know, because Canada Soccer exists only for the benefit of those outside parties.  Rubbish.    

 

 

 

      

  

 

Edited by Cheeta

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1 hour ago, Lofty said:

^

1. If the MLS franchises have a case for an exception then Ottawa Fury also have a case based on league longevity alone.

I don't know if you're talking about the longevity of the USL (I don't see why that would be relevant?) or the longevity of the Fury in USL (which wasn't even two full seasons when the Fury first declared they weren't going to the CPL). Either way I don't really see why they would have a case on that front, feels like there are far stronger arguments elsewhere. 

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6 hours ago, Viruk42 said:

I don't know if you're talking about the longevity of the USL (I don't see why that would be relevant?) or the longevity of the Fury in USL (which wasn't even two full seasons when the Fury first declared they weren't going to the CPL). Either way I don't really see why they would have a case on that front, feels like there are far stronger arguments elsewhere. 

I'm talking about league longevity. USL has been around for a long time (established in 1986 according to wikipedia, albeit under a different name; apparently took on its current form in 2011) and this is a reasonable basis for assuming it will be around for the forseeable future. Not so CPL.

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7 hours ago, Lofty said:

I'm talking about league longevity. USL has been around for a long time (established in 1986 according to wikipedia, albeit under a different name; apparently took on its current form in 2011) and this is a reasonable basis for assuming it will be around for the forseeable future. Not so CPL.

To you, longevity of the USL might mean that it’s a better bet from Ottawa’s point of view, but it’s very unlikely to have any bearing on a court case. The issue would be whether Concacaf (or the CSA as the case may be) have acted unlawfully in declining to issue sanctioning to the Fury to play in a US league now that there is a Canadian one. 

You never know with the Courts, but if the Fury were to sue to compel the sanctioning body to give them sanctioning, I view such a law suit as highly unlikely to succeed. 

1) The CSA and Concacaf have no obligation to sanction anyone.

2) The Fury’s business relationship with the USL, and the particulars of the contract governing that relationship, will have absolutely no bearing on the decision making of outside parties. 

3) If the Fury fold, lose money, or suffer some other real or imagined detriment at having to react to losing sanctioning -it will be because they have opted to act in a way that does not conform with the sanctioning body’s pre established procedures, procedures that they will have been well aware of-

4) Given the debacle of last season’s tempura tantrum by the Fury, it is well known that this issue exists. The Fury won’t be able to complain about notice or fairness anymore. 

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Im not optimistic about the Fury being forced to enter the CPL. 

The CSA is flaccid and has no backbone. They will allow the status quo to continue. 

That being said I think the Fury are stupid to remain in USL. I really do think there are more upsides for them in joining the CPL.  The USL is a dead end. 

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