The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[A_Gagne]

1 hour ago, SpecialK said:

I bet the CSA got NOTHING! Why because they got paid already upfront by the CSB when they signed that 10 year deal. That’s why the CSA doesn’t want to open the books and the contracts. That’s the whole fight right here. 

3mil a year, apparently. Perhaps a little miserly now, but not sure it was back in 2017/18 when they negotiated the deal.

https://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/opinion/2022/06/05/canada-soccer-and-its-players-were-supposed-to-be-preparing-for-the-world-cup-they-werent-prepared-for-this.html

[red card]

1 hour ago, Free kick said:

In what world do you live in?   can you name me one example anywhere in the world where a "not for profit" national sports organization funds supposedly professional leagues and by extension pro clubs?   These are entities whose funds come from (in part) public dollars and/or registration fees

US Soccer founded NWSL, managed it till recently and funded the league. CPL has more commonalities with NWSL than it does with MLS.

And US Soccer, FMF & Canada Soccer all paid the salaries of national team players playing in the NWSL until this year. In effect, a subsidy for the clubs.

https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-us-soccer-denies-nwsl-owners-funding-request-but-offers-counterproposal-143108951.html

 

[red card]

1 hour ago, A_Gagne said:

3mil a year, apparently. Perhaps a little miserly now, but not sure it was back in 2017/18 when they negotiated the deal.

https://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/opinion/2022/06/05/canada-soccer-and-its-players-were-supposed-to-be-preparing-for-the-world-cup-they-werent-prepared-for-this.html

This lines up with Bontis saying during the presser that the CSB deal gave them funding certainty. It also gave us the 26 World Cup, CPL & possibly a women's league. But in these deals, you have to give up something which was the upside. 

This is a pretty standard deal that private equity firms or investment banks do all the time. And in recent years, you are seeing them doing these type of deals in European club football due in part to past mismanagement, covid impacts and/or need to keep up with other clubs/leagues (similar to the CSA situation). 

La Liga recently sold off its tv rights and sponsorship rights over 50 years for US$2.3B and a 8.2% stake to CVC Capital. But 4 clubs opted out and are taking legal action against the league.

Barca was one of the clubs that opted out but is probably in a worse situation than the CSA. So, Barca is asking its members to approve on June 16th a deal that will give undisclosed investors 25% of tv rights and/or related revenue streams and a minority stake in Barca's retail business unit for an undisclosed amount.

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by red card

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, red card said:

This lines up with Bontis saying during the presser that the CSB deal gave them funding certainty. It also gave us the 26 World Cup, CPL & possibly a women's league. But in these deals, you have to give up something which was the upside. 

This is a pretty standard deal that private equity firms or investment banks do all the time. And in recent years, you are seeing them doing these type of deals in European club football due in part to past mismanagement, covid impacts and/or need to keep up with other clubs/leagues (similar to the CSA situation). 

La Liga recently sold off its tv rights and sponsorship rights over 50 years for US$2.3B and a 8.2% stake to CVC Capital. But 4 clubs opted out and are taking legal action against the league.

Barca was one of the clubs that opted out but is probably in a worse situation than the CSA. So, Barca is asking its members to approve on June 16th a deal that will give undisclosed investors 25% of tv rights and/or related revenue streams and a minority stake in Barca's retail business unit for an undisclosed amount.

 

You're correct, we at Barça are sorting out the financial mess of our previous board. 

As you state, Barça refuses to sign away 50%of TV rights to an investment firm, British CVC, in exchange for short term liquidity because it would mean losing control of a key revenue stream for 50 years. It'd also appear as a debt, not an asset, so would work against us for financial fairplay.

So we are sacrificing not being able to sign certain players and possibly results and trophies to avoid this typical CSB-type solution where you solve the short-term with no view to beyond. 

However, it is Barça that sets up its own companies to exploit aspects of its business, then leases limited non-controlling percentages to third parties, with set time terms and always reviewable. So that is what you're describing we're voting on, and good explanation by the way. 

You have to  be clear to not limit your ceiling even when covering losses. But every entity has different horizons. 

Still, Barça is not in a worse state than the CSA, as we have massive capacity to generate revenue (some say the highest in club football), a loyal fan base, just signed a major shirt and naming rights deal with Spotify. I'm fact, if anything, we have not shown salary contention and need to restructure that, affected largely by Messi pulling everyone else up astronomically.

Expenditure control makes sense, and especially when you set a standard you can't go back on (payout %, for example). So here you could argue that the CSA must indeed be tough but fair when setting compensation benchmarks. Only that if they're playing hardball with the players but have a deal with CSB that gifts benefits to the latter, you can see where the discrepancy arises. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Sal333]

11 hours ago, The Real Marc said:

The players are paid for their services. And yes, they are volunteers.

Your analogy is terrible but to be nice I'll try to make it work for you - if I was asked to plumb some pipes to represent my country at the World Plumbing Championships and the going rate didn't make up lost wages at home and/or the World Plumbing Championships weren't really that important to me, and/or I didn't like how the national plumbing association spent their share of the proceeds of the championships (and/or insert any other reason here), I'd decline the call.

But that's not what these players are doing. Because that's too risky.

We all do different jobs for different reasons. As Califax pointed out, its common to do the same work at different pay - because the purposes and the context change the value. If playing for Canada was about the pay, none of them would show up. Canada is going to the World Cup. Individual players are not. Which is why their hand here is weak.

Just a lot of deflecting, that's what I hear.

The players won our road to Qatar. Not the CSA. Not the CSB. Why don't you ask the CSB to make less money and do it for the country. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it.   But the CSB has decades to earn. These players if they're lucky they have 10 maybe 15 years.  All the points you think are valid for the players are just as valid for that shady deal made between CSA and CSB.

In that PC both Bontis and the Duke of Earl were posturing and stonewalling. All their answers were vague and non-responsive. The CSA has been caught with their pants down. 

in my eyes the players have shown all the patience in the world. Bontis revealed his hand when he said the meeting the other day was the first in months he had with the players. Ask yourself, why? Were the players avoiding him or was he stalling them?

As I said in another post whenever I hear Bontis speak, I need to take a shower. Oh, and it wouldn't surprise me if in the coming days the WMNT come out in support of the men.

EDIT

And here's Amy Wash, women's soccer Hall of Famer, on Montreal radio explaining a lot of the points I made. Oh and she doesn't have nice things to say about Dr. Bontis.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/montreal-690/walsh-canadian-player-concerns-are-valid-1.1809197

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sal333

[Stryker911]

I would really like to hear what Atiba thinks of this situation. I am sure he could write a book on the CSA incompetence and all the shenanigans he has put up with over the years. 

However, he has been putting up with it for all this time and now that there is an opportunity to do something significant on the world stage it is blowing up.

Is he willing to sacrifice all that they have accomplished for the young guys on the team? Is he disappointed the other guys aren't willing to do what he did for years? Or is he elated that they finally have some bargaining power and wants to stick it to the CSA?

[Sal333]

8 hours ago, RJB said:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/article/instead-of-world-cup-preparation-canada-soccer-dealing-with-self-inflicted-black-eye/

Stephen Brunt

 

How anybody can read that article and still maintain that the players are at fault is beyond me.

[Alex]

Yesterday was Hoiletts birthday. According to his Instagram story, around midnight eastern, 9pm PT the whole team looks to be out at a restaurant signing happy birthday. I thought negotiations were happening right after the press conference?

[Alex]

7 hours ago, reggietfc said:

i wouldnt be shocked if some of the players have gone home

Look at Hoilett’s Instagram story 

[Colonel Green]

22 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

Oh, and it wouldn't surprise me if in the coming days the WMNT come out in support of the men.

They already issued a statement, the most notable feature of which was making clear that they want to share prize money, which the men’s team seemingly does not.

[Mitchryan11]

I dont get the point of a 50/50 split surely the mens program brings in more money

[Gian-Luca]

So Belgium’s players got 12.5% for the group stage, according to our Belgian friend on this forum in the Opponents Watch thread, Germany even lower. They get much more for incentive bonuses. No mention of sharing prize money with women.

 

[ECW]

I couldn’t get through more than half of the CSA press conference. These guys are disgusting, even their tone is “untenable” as they say. I’m okay if preparations for the world cup are poor (I mean even poorer than it’s been so far and that’s very low) if it somehow gets these morons out. 

[narduch]

After his time at TFC how the fuck is Earl Cochrane still involved in the CSA? 

The fact that he was at the press conference with Bontis sets off major alarm bells.

[ag futbol]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

Yesterday was Hoiletts birthday. According to his Instagram story, around midnight eastern, 9pm PT the whole team looks to be out at a restaurant signing happy birthday. I thought negotiations were happening right after the press conference?

When the counterparty you’re negotiating with stands up in a press conference like Bontis did and basically said my way or the highway, that almost always leads to an impasse and it takes a while before anybody goes back to the table. 
 

Bontis’s assertion that he was going right back to the hotel where the players where to negotiate again was theatre and pure amateur hour. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

53 minutes ago, narduch said:

After his time at TFC how the fuck is Earl Cochrane still involved in the CSA? 

The fact that he was at the press conference with Bontis sets off major alarm bells.

The phrase failing upwards certainly crossed my mind as well. Paul Beirne got the CanPL gig initially and Jimmy Brennan and Preben Ganzhorn were trundled out for York 9 so being in on the fiasco that was the early TFC years in front office terms didn't seem to do that clique any harm in career terms. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[ag futbol]

12 minutes ago, narduch said:

After his time at TFC how the fuck is Earl Cochrane still involved in the CSA? 

The fact that he was at the press conference with Bontis sets off major alarm bells.

Yeah, that’s a huge red flag and beyond comical. Even more funny is that the CSA paid a search firm to do a year-long process just to hire him. 
 

To say TFC was dysfunctional when he was there is an understatement.

 

[ECW]

3 minutes ago, ag futbol said:

Yeah, that’s a huge red flag and beyond comical. Even more funny is that the CSA paid a search firm to do a year-long process just to hire him. 
 

To say TFC was dysfunctional when he was there is an understatement.

 

For a long time TFC supporter it’s like some sort of comic nightmare… Canada finally qualifies again for the world cup and Cochran is leading the charge!

[SpursFlu]

95% off Canadians right now are saying... meh I'll go back to watching hockey or meh I'll go back to cheering for my other national team. 95% of Canadian professional footballers are saying meh I'm likely to never get a cheque from our national team but will from the CPL

[Ruud]

1 hour ago, Gian-Luca said:

So Belgium’s players got 12.5% for the group stage, according to our Belgian friend on this forum in the Opponents Watch thread, Germany even lower. They get much more for incentive bonuses. No mention of sharing prize money with women.

 

Not good comparisons since players likely earn more.   But day of reckoning is coming for women in all associations for pay equity 

 

 

[Ruud]

I’m surprised there are so many complaints about CSB on this thread.  I thought most were happy to have CPL in this country.  Was the deal bad?  Maybe, but isn’t that the risk that all the owners took to make it work?

as far as the men are concerned , they deserve most of the fifa bonuses, along with the coaches and staff.  The pay equity issue notwithstanding, existing players deserve bonuses.  It’s new money so can’t be in the plans for CSA.  New revenue that had no offsetting costs.  Or is it?   But then how much is left over to pay for Qatar organization etc ? To me, those are new costs which have to be paid for somehow.  
 

If the men feel there are other revenues which they feel entitled to a share of which are instead going to CSB then we should know which those are?  And what does an owner like David Edgar and Josh Simpson think about this?  How many bags of oats are there floating out there ?

if CSA says it has 5 million in new costs to support they should clarify why they can’t give all bonuses to players.  And what are those costs.   
 

dr. Bontis needs to resign for the good of CSA quickly.  Doesn’t matter whose to blame

 

[RJB]

We need to hear from the players today.  They need to take questions and make their position clear.  I expect nothing less from them today. 

[Sal333]

Here's Amy Walsh, a women's soccer Hall of Famer, talking on TSN 690 about this sh*t storm. She states outright she's behind the team and says a couple of times that the CSA are experts at delaying negotiations. And she didn't have polite words for Bontis.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/montreal-690/walsh-canadian-player-concerns-are-valid-1.1809197

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sal333

[SpursFlu]

4 minutes ago, RJB said:

We need to hear from the players today.  They need to take questions and make their position clear.  I expect nothing less from them today. 

They're all hungover. First priority is to be up and out before checkout time. Knock knock knock... room service 

Edited June 6, 2022 by SpursFlu

[The Real Marc]

3 hours ago, Sal333 said:

Just a lot of deflecting, that's what I hear.

The players won our road to Qatar. Not the CSA. Not the CSB. Why don't you ask the CSB to make less money and do it for the country. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it.   But the CSB has decades to earn. These players if they're lucky they have 10 maybe 15 years.  All the points you think are valid for the players are just as valid for that shady deal made between CSA and CSB.

In that PC both Bontis and the Duke of Earl were posturing and stonewalling. All their answers were vague and non-responsive. The CSA has been caught with their pants down. 

in my eyes the players have shown all the patience in the world. Bontis revealed his hand when he said the meeting the other day was the first in months he had with the players. Ask yourself, why? Were the players avoiding him or was he stalling them?

As I said in another post whenever I hear Bontis speak, I need to take a shower. Oh, and it wouldn't surprise me if in the coming days the WMNT come out in support of the men.

EDIT

And here's Amy Wash, women's soccer Hall of Famer, on Montreal radio explaining a lot of the points I made. Oh and she doesn't have nice things to say about Dr. Bontis.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/montreal-690/walsh-canadian-player-concerns-are-valid-1.1809197

Fair enough, not everyone can divorce their emotions from analysis. It's possible for some of us to know the CSA is a largely unprofessional organization and maybe not like the people in charge but also understand the players don't have the leverage, or the altruistic motives, that we may wish they had. And the players know that, hence why they're not turning down the call. Would they have even boycotted the game had it been against Iran? Or was it easy to bail on Panama? Lots of blame to go around to all parties in this.