The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[The Real Marc]

Just now, sose said:

So you don't work for free.. but you want others to. 

I'll try it again. With some italics this time.

(Psssssst - The players already get paid for representing Canada. They do not work for free.)

[sose]

Just now, The Real Marc said:

I'll try it again. With some italics this time.

(Psssssst - The players already get paid for representing Canada. They do not work for free.)

If you read the post I responded to he said part of him wants all the money to go to development. i.e. the players get zero

[The Real Marc]

Just now, sose said:

If you read the post I responded to he said part of him wants all the money to go to development. i.e. the players get zero

Even if that occurred, they would still be getting paid by the CSA for their appearances!

Edited June 6, 2022 by The Real Marc

[SirBobsaget]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

This is puzzling and I hate doing this because I sound like I'm against the players, this is old news... what were their agents/representatives doing all this time?

If they think the CSB deal will get reopen, that's just not happening.

The CSA better find creative ways to increase revenues because I think they mishandled the situation with the players completely. The attitude (you can tell Bontis snubbed them), not explaining the business side of soccer is on them, clearly, the players weren't informed of much of CSA doing.

At the same time, is it the norm for players from other federations to have a say in how they conduct business? (Thats also a legitimate question)

I feel this is the case, the CSA sold the future expecting the CMNT to have no hope in qualifying to a World Cup. Now that they qualified all revenue from FIFA and sponsorship is funneled to this third party.  Oh ya also likely funneled to some CSA execs/ scammers. There's no money cause its all in CSM's accounts. 

Thank you for so much sacrifice CMNT players! you sort of propped up CPL and made Bontis and his friends like Earl Cochrane who was pitchforked out of town here in Toronto rich!!!

Edited June 6, 2022 by SirBobsaget

[Ally McCoist]

[ag futbol]

7 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

Nope. This is terrible analogy because you can't find one to suit your argument.

So I'll try to make it work for you - if I was asked to plumb some pipes to represent my country at the World Plumbing Championships and the going rate didn't make up lost wages at home, or because the World Plumbing Championships aren't important to me, or I only plumb for the money, I'd decline the call.

We all do different jobs for different reasons. As Califax pointed out, its common to do the same work at different pay - because the purposes and the context change the value. If playing for Canada was about the pay, none of them would show up. Canada is going to the World Cup. Individual players are not. Which is why their hand here is weak.

In the short run you’re right. Going to a World Cup holds more value for a player than any stipend they’d get from the CSA. But in the long run, it’s a bit more complex than that.

CSA’s in a recruitment war for talent. Players assess the chances of the team’s continued success. The mens team is the single biggest revenue opportunity for the CSA.

But leaving that aside, the extreme nature of the players actions here suggests to me problems go well beyond pay. If things were otherwise blue skys they wouldn’t have pulled the carpet out from the CSA like this.

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, RJB said:

What's interesting in all this is that people who are against the players seem to be missing how much they've accomplished with this.

People.are asking questions about CSB, (I had never heard of them at all thanks to very little reporting), people are grilling the CSA, and the media is going to start poking holes (expectedly) in the operations at the CSA.

Seeing Bontis be so adversarial in the presser and to hear some of the things being said will only draw the attention further on this .

Rick Westhead is on it now which doesn't bode well for whichever side is in the wrong. Plus I'm sure there will beany others that will pick up the story 

Mission accomplished by the players. 

(Side note, Bontis said they weren't in same city until yesterday... Why not!!??)

 

Agreed.  its only now that I think about the fact that Onesoccer flipped to rights to the WCQ broadcasts to Rogers.   That money from the broadcast rights didnt go to CSA and certainly didn't accrue to the players on the MNT.  No in fact it would accrue to the CPL and its players.  None of those players contributed to qualifying for the WC.

If CSB is to do the marketing for the CSA than what did they really do?   other than provide that shitty portal for onesoccer which I unsubscribed to last month.  The only subscibers like come from this forum.  plus they flipped the rights to Rogers.

Now thats why Cochrane didnt answer Peter Galindo's question

Edited June 6, 2022 by Free kick

[JohnnyFranchise]

6 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

The men's statement, despite what Rick Westhead claimed on twitter, doesn't call for equal pay. It calls for "equitable". Someone could argue that something is equitable (aka fair) without the actual $$ being equal (e.g. the men earn more from FIFA. The women are essentially making that distinction in their statement and even that the % could be equal but the pay might not be if the pool of funds FIFA is providing to the men is greater because it generates more $$ than the women's game does. And someone could argue that this lack of equality is equitable because of the greater $$ coming from the men's game.

see, what i was getting out of everything i heard and read over the past 24 hours was that both programs were getting the same cut of all funds generated by the men's team AND the women's team. like, they'll both get and equal percentage of the men's ~$10 million qualifying money, and they'd both get equal cut of any women's prize money.

[Gian-Luca]

So basically, if I have this correct, the men have called the CSA's proposal "archaic", but the women are calling it "a positive step forward".

Billie Jean King vs. Bobby Riggs eat your heart out....

[Free kick]

9 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

The men's statement, despite what Rick Westhead claimed on twitter, doesn't call for equal pay. It calls for "equitable". Someone could argue that something is equitable (aka fair) without the actual $$ being equal (e.g. the men earn more from FIFA. The women are essentially making that distinction in their statement and even that the % could be equal but the pay might not be if the pool of funds FIFA is providing to the men is greater because it generates more $$ than the women's game does. And someone could argue that this lack of equality is equitable because of the greater $$ coming from the men's game.

Yes, worth re-emphasizing.  I didnt see anything in the mens demands that would not have accrued to the women as well.

[Gian-Luca]

3 minutes ago, JohnnyFranchise said:

see, what i was getting out of everything i heard and read over the past 24 hours was that both programs were getting the same cut of all funds generated by the men's team AND the women's team. like, they'll both get and equal percentage of the men's ~$10 million qualifying money, and they'd both get equal cut of any women's prize money.

that's what I think is going to happen (it pretty much has to with the men bringing up the women's game, league etc. in their statement), it's just that the men's statement doesn't actually state this, and leaves room for "we deserve more because it would be fair"

Edited June 6, 2022 by Gian-Luca

[JohnnyFranchise]

1 minute ago, Gian-Luca said:

that's what I think is going to happen (it pretty much has to with the men bringing up the women's game, league etc. in their statement), it's just that the men's statement doesn't actually state this, and leaves room for "we deserve more"

ah ok, now i'm picking up what you're putting down.

to paraphrase it all, the csa is (claiming to be) offering to pay both the same cuts of all the revenues, but the men only want same percentages of each of their indivdual team revenues.

[SirBobsaget]

1 minute ago, ag futbol said:

In the short run you’re right. Going to a World Cup holds more value for a player than any stipend they’d get from the CSA. But in the long run, it’s a bit more complex than that.

CSA’s in a recruitment war for talent. Players assess the chances of the team’s continued success. The mens team is the single biggest revenue opportunity for the CSA.

But leaving that aside, the extreme nature of the players actions here suggests to me problems go well beyond pay. If things were otherwise blue skys they wouldn’t have pulled the carpet out from the CSA like this.

Other nations are chartering planes, securing tickets and providing accommodations for players families while Canada does not. Families are on thier own dime while im 100% sure Nick Bontis and Earl Cochrane's leaches are getting a free ride.

These players that have given and sacrificed everything are taking a stand against these CSA snakes. They need to be ousted, put Jason De Vos in charge. 

[johnyb]

7 hours ago, David Pinto said:

Venue costs (staff, rent, %of concessions that operator gets), putting on camps, advertising, travel and security for road matches. They would have had great revenue but how much profit is questionable. 

They also had a lot of closed door games due to Covid. Thats a huge expense with nothing coming in.

[The Real Marc]

18 minutes ago, ag futbol said:

In the short run you’re right. Going to a World Cup holds more value for a player than any stipend they’d get from the CSA. But in the long run, it’s a bit more complex than that.

CSA’s in a recruitment war for talent. Players assess the chances of the team’s continued success. The mens team is the single biggest revenue opportunity for the CSA.

But leaving that aside, the extreme nature of the players actions here suggests to me problems go well beyond pay. If things were otherwise blue skys they wouldn’t have pulled the carpet out from the CSA like this.

Oh I'm with you - I won't disagree this is bad news and not a good selling point for future players. It's the last thing we need in the face of Yankovs, Sailses, Floreses, Mitrovices. Heck, I wonder if Ugbo is secretly wondering what he got himself into. This is a disaster.

But even in the long run, the dynamics here are much different than many posters (not necessarily you) seem to think. The CSA is in a much stronger position relative to players. The CSA has competitors, but relatively few. The CSA is not the primary employer, pro clubs are. Most players have limited choices of national teams and even more limited opportunities. The CSA has the profile of national team duty. Plus the patriotism angle (for those few players that care about it.)

Which is why players are refusing to play, not turning down the call. Weak stuff.

People here are acting like no one ever takes a pay cut for other benefits, or does something below the going pay rate for the experience, or takes a side gig at a discount for the exposure. Heck, do we remember why Radzinski came back into the fold? Not the money, not the prestige - because his mom told him he should!

I can only trust that the players are truly concerned about the state of soccer here. Any letter that whines about their family not getting enough tickets and focuses on player pay, however, makes that trust waver. But I can hope!

(Edited to add, sorry for the rant this really is mostly not in response to you.)

Edited June 6, 2022 by The Real Marc

[Vasi]

This is what happens when you are in control of an off to the side organization that nobody has the time or cares to look at and you have an annual stipend from the government. You tend to become corrupt and shady. 

Then accidentally and unexpectedly you hire someone who brings great succes, and now all of a sudden you have lots of unwanted eyes and scrutiny. 

This is what is happening to the CSA brads and Bontis. 

[Shway]

30 minutes ago, Big_M said:

BREAKING

A statement from the womens national team in which they demand equal pay and not equal percentages and in which they say that they will not accept an agreement that does not offer equal pay

This is likely the turning point

Men will now be forced to accept lower to ensure equal pay

 

History might be against them....again they aren't in the same position as the USWNT.

[RJB]

Who is the national team alumnus that Bontis that is on the Board of Directors?  Bontis referred to this in the press conference.

Also, I didn't pick up on it at the time, but a clip on the sportsnet site showed him saying that the CSA offer was 30% of prize money.  

 

[Approve My Account Pls]

So a commonality between both national teams is the lack of transparency on financials and the role of the CSB. Match that with Bontis' very defensive tone and clear move to avoid any questioning on the CSB and something smells fishy. It seems to me like the CSA's inability to be transparent, the CSB's role in everything, and a clear mistrust between player and federation as the sticking point moreso than the financials themselves.

[SirBobsaget]

I don't believe Bontis and CSA, they're main rebuttal was that their phones were on the ready for negotiations? Why is the onus to bridge a deal on the players? Also maybe Bontis told the players to go F themselves because he already pocketed a nice bribe so there was no point calling these available phone. For f sakes they hires Earl Cochrane. Idiots.

[Soro17]

4 minutes ago, RJB said:

Who is the national team alumnus that Bontis that is on the Board of Directors?  Bontis referred to this in the press conference.

Also, I didn't pick up on it at the time, but a clip on the sportsnet site showed him saying that the CSA offer was 30% of prize money.  

 

Brittany Timko. 

[ssk]

37 minutes ago, Big_M said:

BREAKING

A statement from the womens national team in which they demand equal pay and not equal percentages and in which they say that they will not accept an agreement that does not offer equal pay

This is likely the turning point

Men will now be forced to accept lower to ensure equal pay

 

I have it on good authority that this is why Huitema and Davies broke up. Huitema was like "this is the right way. how can you be so sexist!?" and Davies was like "I'm for equal work for equal pay. but this is not equal work" and Huitema was like "I can't even!!! we're done!". True story. 💩

[Vasi]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

Seems to me that the CSA was always a small federation

Players worked their butts off to achieve something no one thought they could pull off

Significant money is coming in (for once).

The CSA wants to use it to grow the organization and make this success sustainable with programs and infrastructure (avoiding this being a one time thing)

Players who pulled off nearly the impossible wants to be compensated accordingly.

MANNNNNNNN, that's tough... Once you stop emotionally reacting to the news... that's tough.....

At the same time, it's the CSA job to explain the business side of things to players and reading the letter, not sure they quite understand all of it.

This is where a union would have been helpful as this is their job. At the same time, it makes the CSA look stupid if it can't do it themselves... might as well give a union to the players if you let things go this south on your own... clearly a union/third party is needed here.

Not all black and white but the TIMING SUCKS

When I look at the CSA i do not see selfless guys who give a shit about growing this game. If they did there would be: transparency, better kits, people would actually get the merchandise they buy, friendly game with wc counties and not ones that are considered shady by your public.

The CSA has been useless for a while. I give them 0 benefit of doubt. This is not an emotional take. Its one backed by track record.  

 

[JohnnyFranchise]

6 minutes ago, RJB said:

Who is the national team alumnus that Bontis that is on the Board of Directors?  Bontis referred to this in the press conference.

i was wondering the same thing, looked it up, saw a few women's team alumni on the board, but no men's team alums.

 

7 minutes ago, RJB said:

Also, I didn't pick up on it at the time, but a clip on the sportsnet site showed him saying that the CSA offer was 30% of prize money.

yah, he dropped it during one of his rants

[SirBobsaget]

I'm now confident the CSA did something stupid like offer 100% of sponsorship rights and FIFA bonuses to CSB.