WCQ: Jamaica vs Canada - Sunday, Oct 10, 6pm Eastern / 3pm Pacific - Kingston, Jamaica

[keysersoze]

I get 3 game windows can be exhausting, but this over insistence by some on squad rotation is non-sense and I'm glad Herdman is sticking with the core players. You can't take a single game for granted and you have to put together your best lineup each game within reason.

Through injury and yellow card accumulation you have already had natural squad rotation. Vitoria, Hoilett, Laryea, Tajon, Davies, Larin and Borjan will all have missed at least one match and we will only have been through 5 matches after Sunday. Imagine if you gave away the US and Mexico games and were still dealing with these issues. This isn't an aging team running on fumes, this is a young team that hasn't had deep runs as a team like this before.

The absolute best way for squad rotation is to beat the crap out of the weaker opponents in the Ocho. 5 players were able to come off in the El Salvador game early.

[footballfreak]

Panama will not go down as easily as El Salvador. 

[dyslexic nam]

4 minutes ago, keysersoze said:

I get 3 game windows can be exhausting, but this over insistence by some on squad rotation is non-sense and I'm glad Herdman is sticking with the core players. You can't take a single game for granted and you have to put together your best lineup each game within reason.

Through injury and yellow card accumulation you have already had natural squad rotation. Vitoria, Hoilett, Laryea, Tajon, Davies, Larin and Borjan will all have missed at least one match and we will only have been through 5 matches after Sunday. Imagine if you gave away the US and Mexico games and were still dealing with these issues. This isn't an aging team running on fumes, this is a young team that hasn't had deep runs as a team like this before.

The absolute best way for squad rotation is to beat the crap out of the weaker opponents in the Ocho. 5 players were able to come off in the El Salvador game early.

Some of this just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. 
- Laryea and Tajon are only missing because they played in Mexico (and got 2nd yellows).  Thus we wouldn’t still be dealing with their absences.  
- I am also not sure why you mention Borjan and Larin.  Like Cav and Atiba, they are simply injured players that have no bearing on who else we put in the lineup.  Lumping them in with guys who picked up second yellows seems odd.  
- no one ever once advocated “giving away” the Mexico or US games.  I keep seeing this language but it completely misrepresents what most of us were saying prior to Mexico.  There is a world of difference between going all out with everything you have (which is what Herdman did in Mexico) and holding some players in reserve to make sure they were fresh for Jamaica.  
- Yes, we got a point off of Mexico, and yes it was a great game to watch.  But anyone pretending that single result completely invalidates the idea that we should have taken a different approach is completely missing the point of the argument.   We will only have an idea of whether or not it was the right move at the end of this window.  If we get 5 points, then Herdman was right and I will gladly admit it.  But if we stumble against Jamaica or Panama because of avoidable absences or exhaustion, we can revisit whether or not that single Mexican point was worth it. 

[footballfreak]

3 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

- no one ever once advocated “giving away” the Mexico or US games.  I keep seeing this language but it completely misrepresents what most of us were saying prior to Mexico.  There is a world of difference between going all out with everything you have (which is what Herdman did in Mexico) and holding some players in reserve to make sure they were fresh for Jamaica.  
- Yes, we got a point off of Mexico, and yes it was a great game to watch.  But anyone pretending that single result completely invalidates the idea that we should have taken a different approach is completely missing the point of the argument.   We will only have an idea of whether or not it was the right move at the end of this window.  If we get 5 points, then Herdman was right and I will gladly admit it.  But if we stumble against Jamaica or Panama because of avoidable absences or exhaustion, we can revisit whether or not that single Mexican point was worth it. 

 

Yell it louder for the people in the back! No one was for “giving away” the Mexico game. 

[keysersoze]

6 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Some of this just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. 
- Laryea and Tajon are only missing because they played in Mexico (and got 2nd yellows).  Thus we wouldn’t still be dealing with their absences.  
- I am also not sure why you mention Borjan and Larin.  Like Cav and Atiba, they are simply injured players that have no bearing on who else we put in the lineup.  Lumping them in with guys who picked up second yellows seems odd.  
- no one ever once advocated “giving away” the Mexico or US games.  I keep seeing this language but it completely misrepresents what most of us were saying prior to Mexico.  There is a world of difference between going all out with everything you have (which is what Herdman did in Mexico) and holding some players in reserve to make sure they were fresh for Jamaica.  
- Yes, we got a point off of Mexico, and yes it was a great game to watch.  But anyone pretending that single result completely invalidates the idea that we should have taken a different approach is completely missing the point of the argument.   We will only have an idea of whether or not it was the right move at the end of this window.  If we get 5 points, then Herdman was right and I will gladly admit it.  But if we stumble against Jamaica or Panama because of avoidable absences or exhaustion, we can revisit whether or not that single Mexican point was worth it. 

I'm lumping in yellows with injuries because a missed game is a missed game, it doesn't matter why. You can't fully anticipate when or if a player gets hurt, so use them when they are healthy. You are wasting games when a player is fit and sitting them when you will have situations where you can't use them at all.

Not playing an optimal lineup is still lessening your chances of picking up points. Doing everything in your power to pick up points > heavy squad rotation only 4 or 5 games into qualifying. I can't believe we are at a point with such a young and inexperienced team that people are wondering if it was worth it to get points in our 2 hardest fixtures. Considering Herdman has done the opposite and knows this team better than anyone I'd imagine it ends up being the right move.

Card management rotations make some sense especially in positions of depth, but again why are you so worried about those absences when you are advocating intentional rotation absent of injury/cards? So it's not smart to do it because you went out and got points, but it's smart in this theoretical situation? Again, this isn't a team running on fumes and there is already natural squad rotation. Having a fresh squad won't mean much if you are suddenly in a position where you are in literal must win matches because you were content punting matches early.

[VinceA]

39 minutes ago, footballfreak said:

Panama will not go down as easily as El Salvador. 

They are missing their best CB Andrade.

[Bdog]

I'll be at a wedding tomorrow so watching this game will be a Monday morning hangover activity. At least I'll only have to wait two days for the Panama game.

[Kadenge]

How much rotation did we see vs USA after we started our A team v Honduras? If JH "rotated" players v USA & Mexico, we are probably at 4 points v 6. No results are guaranteed even at home - see v Honduras. Load management is important but you have to try and max points wherever you can. We may have to drop some "A" players v Panama but they also will have to do the same. You never play for a tie. So its a win or loss that we go for v Jamaica. I know which one I would pick.

[trc2014]

To me, JH made it sound like rotation would be heavy in this interview, he actually sounds quite shaken about the state of his roster (not sure if there are injuries from the Mexico game they are facing that we don’t know about).  Not sure if it was a mistake but he also completely avoids the question about whether Spoony and Hoilett made it to Kingston.

[Wayverider]

For my money let’s expect a wounded animal tomorrow night that has been backed into a corner. Throw our best at them and play hard for the three points. Then prepare for Panama accordingly when the game is done with what we have. Our depth is second to none in Concacaf so let’s embrace that reality with confidence. From the first Gold Cup game this past summer to now we’ve impressively demonstrated the ‘next man up’ concept with every player who has pulled on the Maple Leaf jersey. March forward confidently with new found confidence JH has instilled. 

It’s quite possible that many of our opponents will get much easier results from the Reggae Boyz after the New Year if Jamaica is fully out of the picture for a WC birth by then. But we face them now and we have a tougher task at hand (because the Jamaican players who take the field desperately want to get back into this). Hold nothing back and let’s take them.

[Kadenge]

9 minutes ago, trc2014 said:

To me, JH made it sound like rotation would be heavy in this interview, he actually sounds quite shaken about the state of his roster (not sure if there are injuries from the Mexico game they are facing that we don’t know about).  Not sure if it was a mistake but he also completely avoids the question about whether Spoony and Hoilett made it to Kingston.

If they are not there we better call up replacements. Not having Hoilett would definitely be a problem. He's been dynamite every time we have played Jamaica. Worrisome for sure given Tajon is out. It does sound like there will be some new starters. ZBG should be one, but who else?

[footballfreak]

15 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

How much rotation did we see vs USA after we started our A team v Honduras? If JH "rotated" players v USA & Mexico, we are probably at 4 points v 6. No results are guaranteed even at home - see v Honduras. Load management is important but you have to try and max points wherever you can. We may have to drop some "A" players v Panama but they also will have to do the same. You never play for a tie. So its a win or loss that we go for v Jamaica. I know which one I would pick.

1. We did rotate against the US. 5 starters. Thanks for playing.

in: Adekugbe, Henry, Kennedy, Kaye, Hoilett

out: Miller, Vitoria, Hutchinson, Buchanan, David

 

2. A measured approach is not the same as playing for a loss, and frankly it’s disingenuous to make that claim.

How does overplaying tired guys maximize points? You will see squad rotation from Mexico and USA in the second game. I suppose they’re both playing for a loss? 

Let’s assume we can only get 45-60 good minutes out of some or all of David/Davies/Eustaquio, which is a very real possibility regardless of the how fit they are. They just ran their asses off for 85-90 mins at 2200m. Do you really want to use those minutes at the beginning of the game, when history has shown Jamaica are much more vulnerable after the break? 

Also, let’s not pretend those other guys are scrubs. Millar has been in great form for Basel, Hoilett is scoring in the Championship, and TFC fans won’t shut up about Shaffelburg. Piette and Fraser played as a midfield unit together against the US at the Gold Cup and were probably the best players on the pitch.

There’s also an aspect of this that tends to get forgotten. In the limited training sessions these guys have, it’s all about getting familiarity among the starting 11. That means the A squad guys are all scrimmaging as one unit against the subs. The B squad have familiarity with each other because they play with each other more (see Piette and Fraser).

[PegCityCam]

"Junior Hoilett and David Wotherspoon joined the team in Jamaica and trained Saturday after skipping the Mexico portion of the trip due to the quarantine in Britain necessitated by a visit to Mexico."

As per: 

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/worldcup/canada-jamaica-world-cup-qualifying-1.6206616

[Gian-Luca]

I am guessing we will see a starting trio of Shaffelburg Hoilett and Millar with Davies and David coming on midway through the 2nd half.  I think we will see the same starting midfield trio as they were all taken off in the 2nd half on Thursday. 

[Cblake]

I have bee going back and fourth on this, how do you approach using Davies and David in this match. do you start them and get them off as quickly as possible once things are in control or hold them back and use them for say the final 30 etc if needed. I do have a feeling though that David will be needed up front with some of the others out, but he does need good service, guess that is where Junior could come in. Will be very interested to see how this plays out.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Cblake

[frmr]

1 hour ago, footballfreak said:

 

Yell it louder for the people in the back! No one was for “giving away” the Mexico game. 

Yes there were. There were multiple people saying that we weren’t going to earn anything or that we didn’t need anything from the game. Some of the lineups people were posting were essentially the equivalence of waving a white flag. I understand the stance that many were taking regarding squad rotation, but to say “no one” were for essentially forfeiting that match is objectively untrue. You can go back in the match thread and read for yourself. 

[footballfreak]

1 minute ago, frmr said:

Yes there were. There were multiple people saying that we weren’t going to earn anything or that we didn’t need anything from the game. Some of the lineups people were posting were essentially the equivalence of waving a white flag. I understand the stance that many were taking regarding squad rotation, but to say “no one” were for essentially forfeiting that match is objectively untrue. You can go back in the match thread and read for yourself. 

I was one of those proposing a B/B- lineup to start the match and evaluating at half. It was not a concession. If a team of Jamaican USL players can shut down Mexico for 45 mins in Azteca, so can a team of career MLS guys and guys playing for Basel, etc.

[BuzzAndSting]

1 hour ago, Bdog said:

I'll be at a wedding tomorrow so watching this game will be a Monday morning hangover activity. At least I'll only have to wait two days for the Panama game.

Weddings on Thanksgiving Sunday? Is this a new thing??

[PegCityCam]

1 hour ago, trc2014 said:

To me, JH made it sound like rotation would be heavy in this interview, he actually sounds quite shaken about the state of his roster (not sure if there are injuries from the Mexico game they are facing that we don’t know about).  Not sure if it was a mistake but he also completely avoids the question about whether Spoony and Hoilett made it to Kingston.

I wouldn't say "shaken", if anything he sounds somewhat flustered with the cards/injuries/lack of updates on Larin/Atiba. They'll be without Tajon, Laryea, Vitoria, Cavalinni and possibly Larin and Atiba, the "big names" he's talking about. Plus Stephen and Sam (and believe one more) are on cards so he's definitely got some decisions there. Hoilett and Spoony are there.

[EJsens1]

33 minutes ago, Cblake said:

I do have a feeling though that David will be needed up front with some of the others out, but he does need good service, guess that is where Junior could come in.

If they knew Larin was available to play Wednesday, I’d start David against Jamaica and maybe bring him on against Panama if needed.  I find David and Larin don’t play great together.

The other can of worms here is that Larin hasn’t played in a while.  To throw him into a crucial WCQ like that, well..

[Cblake]

9 minutes ago, EJsens1 said:

If they knew Larin was available to play Wednesday, I’d start David against Jamaica and maybe bring him on against Panama if needed.  I find David and Larin don’t play great together.

The other can of worms here is that Larin hasn’t played in a while.  To throw him into a crucial WCQ like that, well..

I just do not think you can expect much out of Larin at this point. He has not played since September 21st with a thigh muscle strain and unless he has recovered enough it is not even worth it. 

[nolando]

57 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Weddings on Thanksgiving Sunday? Is this a new thing??

[Cblake]

24 minutes ago, nolando said:

That is just one dam scary thought, would make me not to want to eat Thanksgiving dinner. LOL 

[gator]

1 hour ago, frmr said:

Yes there were. There were multiple people saying that we weren’t going to earn anything or that we didn’t need anything from the game. Some of the lineups people were posting were essentially the equivalence of waving a white flag. I understand the stance that many were taking regarding squad rotation, but to say “no one” were for essentially forfeiting that match is objectively untrue. You can go back in the match thread and read for yourself. 

I posted before the match a lineup that would have preserved others for the last two matches as I, like many others didn't expect us to get anything out of Mexico, I also mentioned the lineup I proposed would have a go at them and there is no evidence they wouldn't have! If we get 4 points out of this window that will be ok with only one home match, let's see what happens! When the window is finished we can evaluate what approach was the right one, until them it is just speculation and everyone is entitled to their opinion!

[footballfreak]

I find it curious that people are saying Herdman doesn’t do much rotation.

Game 1–>2:  5 changes

5 repeat starters. Davies (90/77), Johnston (90/90), Eustaquio(90/90), Larin (90/65), Laryea (90/90)

Game 2—>3: 6 changes.

4 repeat starters. Johnston (90/90), Laryea(90/90), Eustaquio (90/90), Hoilett (65/57)

Laryea would probably be starting @ Jamaica if not for the suspension. I still expect at least 5 changes. Knowing Herdman, Johnston and Eustaquio probably start and we pray the latter doesn’t get a card. 

——

 @ Mexico:

Crepeau, Laryea, Miller, Vitoria, Johnston(76), Kaye(76), Eustaquio, Osorio(77), Davies, Buchanan, David(86)

——

@Jamaica 

Crepeau, Adekugbe, Miller/Cornelius, Henry, Johnston(70), Kaye(70)/Piette/Fraser, Eustaquio, Osorio(70), Millar, Hoilett, Shaffelburg

Davies and David as super subs. Swap in one to the starting lineup for Shaff/Millar if you like, but almost certainly not both. 

——

vs Panama

Crepeau, Laryea, Miller, Vitoria, Johnston, Eustaqio (hopefully), Kaye/Piette/Fraser, Osorio, Davies, Buchanan, David

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by footballfreak