Derek Cornelius

[InglewoodJack]

9 hours ago, footballfreak said:

I’m sorry, but the euro fetishization on here needs to stop.

He’s been playing in Greece not France or Belgium. His club averaged 1,330 fans per game last year and has a squad value of €10.9M - meaning it would probably top the USL Championship, but would be comfortably the worst team in MLS. Only 5 clubs in the Greek Super League are at or above MLS quality, and only Olympiacos spends above MLS levels.

If he wants to go back to Greece so be it, but MLS is a step up in quality week to week. If Cornelius wants to get better as a player, managing to stick in MLS would be a very good step.

The reality is, unless you’re making a move to the top 7-10 European leagues, or a club playing regularly in the Champions/Europa League, it’s probably a lateral move or a step down. Long gone are the days where being sold to Norway is seen as a positive career move for MLS kids.

"Fetishization" is a young player following the same journey that thousands of players before him have done- move to Europe, and hope to advance to higher leagues, alright then. Greece isn't his final destination,  and getting loaned out of MLS only to return back to MLS at your first opportunity probably spells the end of his career abroad and closes the window on reaching France or Belgium or wherever, which is, despite how good the MLS has gotten, what most players want. Not to mention, the MLS will always be there, he can move there once his club dreams in europe are over and still set himself up very nicely for retirement.

From his club, it's easier to move to an Olympiacos, or a Turkish club, put himself in position to play Champions League, get his name out there, have scouts talking about him, and go elsewhere. It's how a player like Richie Ennin ended up playing in the Russian top div, it's how a player like Stefan Mitrovic put himself on Red Star (and Serbia's national team)'s radar- at this stage in your career, it's more important to bet on yourself then take the money and settle.

Also... we're talking about the Vancouver Whitecaps here. It's not a question of Cornelius being in a position to start for NYC or Philly or an LA team- this is a player whose (no offence to any WC fans here) biggest moments at the club will likely come from a very convincing voyageur cup game against Forge or something.

9 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

How many MLS teams would be comfortably mid table in Greece?

Maybe the same ones who made the playoffs.

3-4 could challenge for the league.

This business of looking at Transfermarkt is kids stuff. They just played Panathinaikos to a minimal late loss. 

I'd take any of our MLS guys being paid criminally (it's your definition, since why does such a good league pay the youth so badly) in Norway at 100 k a year. 

Without even getting into what clubs offer players outside of cash- a place to live, meals, perhaps a car- I have a feeling that the salary Cornelius earns to live and play in Agrinio, Greece takes him about as far, if not farther, than what his salary at Vancouver would. Oh cool you make $175k in Vancouver? Congrats, you're a working poor. 

 

[footballfreak]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

So despite relying on Transfermarkt or derivatives for your information, you're admitting that a far worse league, in your opinion, is paying the core of its journeymen pretty well the same as MLS.

I prefer relying on having watched Greek football teams, or Norwegian, and having watched MLS. I'd much rather see Cornelius in Greece, Adekugbe in Turkey. Even taking a guy who went to 2nd tier Belgium on his way up from MLS, which in principle I don't like, is mitigated by the core quality of European football.

I even go to see lower tier semi pro teams in the Spanish cup vs much higher levels, and the surprises, the general competitive quality, are due to the core quality.

By your parameters, surely, transfer fee bla bla bla plus stadium size plus average salary data proves Liam Fraser would be better off in CPL.

How dare I use perfidious facts! MLS salaries are all published by the MLS Players Association and readily available. 

And you read that wrong. Players are not paid comparably between Norway and MLS. The 100th BEST player in Norway represents the 6.25th player on the average roster (100/16=6.25). So the very very worst players on an MLS roster are paid as well or better than ~40% of Norwegian starters. Derek Cornelius, deemed surplus to requirements on a skinflint Whitecaps team that missed the MLS playoffs, would have been in the top 75 players by wage in Norway.

Fraser gambled on Deinze winning promotion to the First Division and it didn’t pay quite off. If you’re asking me to split hairs between the Belgian 2nd division and the CPL, I honestly can’t if this highlights package picked at random is representative. Seems somewhere around USL/CanPL level to me. 

[footballfreak]

18 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

"Fetishization" is a young player following the same journey that thousands of players before him have done- move to Europe, and hope to advance to higher leagues, alright then. Greece isn't his final destination,  and getting loaned out of MLS only to return back to MLS at your first opportunity probably spells the end of his career abroad and closes the window on reaching France or Belgium or wherever, which is, despite how good the MLS has gotten, what most players want. Not to mention, the MLS will always be there, he can move there once his club dreams in europe are over and still set himself up very nicely for retirement.

From his club, it's easier to move to an Olympiacos, or a Turkish club, put himself in position to play Champions League, get his name out there, have scouts talking about him, and go elsewhere. It's how a player like Richie Ennin ended up playing in the Russian top div, it's how a player like Stefan Mitrovic put himself on Red Star (and Serbia's national team)'s radar- at this stage in your career, it's more important to bet on yourself then take the money and settle.

Also... we're talking about the Vancouver Whitecaps here. It's not a question of Cornelius being in a position to start for NYC or Philly or an LA team- this is a player whose (no offence to any WC fans here) biggest moments at the club will likely come from a very convincing voyageur cup game against Forge or something.

Without even getting into what clubs offer players outside of cash- a place to live, meals, perhaps a car- I have a feeling that the salary Cornelius earns to live and play in Agrinio, Greece takes him about as far, if not farther, than what his salary at Vancouver would. Oh cool you make $175k in Vancouver? Congrats, you're a working poor. 

 

Moving to a worse league somehow gives Cornelius better access to playing in a better league in some nebulous future? Based on what? This isn’t 2003. There are well established pathways from MLS to top European leagues. It’s not some forgotten backwater. It’s a top 15 league with better parity from club to club than anywhere else.

Almiron, Slonina, Aaronson, Pepi, Dike, Altidore, Steffen, Reynolds, Paredes, Turner, Buksa, Mihailovic, Rossi, Richards, Busio, McKenzie, Miazga, Harrison, etc, etc, etc.

Wanna go closer to home? Larin, Laryea, Buchanan, Davies, Adekugbe, and probably soon: Johnston, Miller, Koné. That’s a good chunk of the national team core that went straight from MLS to a solid European league. Adekugbe’s route was more circuitous, but he also never established himself as an MLS starter before moving over.

Your point about cost of living is taken, but what salary does a club like Panetoklios offer to players not there on loan? The only player other than Cornelius that I’m familiar with, Deybi Flores, was a complete non factor in Vancouver and slunk back to Honduras for a spell. Also, 175K is basically poverty wages by MLS standards at this point. Jake Nerwinski was on 280K in 2022. If Cornelius establishes himself as a reliable starter next season, he would be in line for more like 300-400K. Nothing to slouch at.

If you’re all about “betting on yourself,” the bet is to establish yourself as a quality player in a better league than the one you’re currently playing in, and try to move up from there. With respect to Olympiacos/the big 3, MLS is the better league.

Regarding the Whitecaps, whatever the ownership’s faults, an inability to move players to European clubs is not one of them. Besides Cornelius, in the last 5 years: Colyn (PSV U21), Bikel (Vicenza), Pecile (Venezia), Bair (HamKam, St. Johnstone), Metcalfe (Stabaek), In-Beom Hwang (Rubin Kazan), Odunze (Leicester City), Davies (Bayern), Adekugbe (Valerenga), Bevan (Husqvarna), McKendry (TPS), Erice (Albacete), Juarez (Valerenga), Igiebor (Anorthosis). Cornelius won’t be held hostage. 

MLS isn’t some footballing leper colony or Valinor.

[InglewoodJack]

12 minutes ago, footballfreak said:

Moving to a worse league somehow gives Cornelius better access to playing in a better league in some nebulous future? Based on what? This isn’t 2003. There are well established pathways from MLS to top European leagues. It’s not some forgotten backwater. It’s a top 15 league with better parity from club to club than anywhere else.

Almiron, Slonina, Aaronson, Pepi, Dike, Altidore, Steffen, Reynolds, Paredes, Turner, Buksa, Mihailovic, Rossi, Richards, Busio, McKenzie, Miazga, Harrison, etc, etc, etc.

Wanna go closer to home? Larin, Laryea, Buchanan, Davies, Adekugbe, and probably soon: Johnston, Miller, Koné. That’s a good chunk of the national team core that went straight from MLS to a solid European league. Adekugbe’s route was more circuitous, but he also never established himself as an MLS starter before moving over.

Your point about cost of living is taken, but what salary does a club like Panetoklios offer to players not there on loan? The only player other than Cornelius that I’m familiar with, Deybi Flores, was a complete non factor in Vancouver and slunk back to Honduras for a spell. Also, 175K is basically poverty wages by MLS standards at this point. Jake Nerwinski was on 280K in 2022. If Cornelius establishes himself as a reliable starter next season, he would be in line for more like 300-400K. Nothing to slouch at.

If you’re all about “betting on yourself,” the bet is to establish yourself as a quality player in a better league than the one you’re currently playing in, and try to move up from there. With respect to Olympiacos/the big 3, MLS is the better league.

Regarding the Whitecaps, whatever the ownership’s faults, an inability to move players to European clubs is not one of them. Besides Cornelius, in the last 5 years: Colyn (PSV U21), Bikel (Vicenza), Pecile (Venezia), Bair (HamKam, St. Johnstone), Metcalfe (Stabaek), In-Beom Hwang (Rubin Kazan), Odunze (Leicester City), Davies (Bayern), Adekugbe (Valerenga), Bevan (Husqvarna), McKendry (TPS), Erice (Albacete), Juarez (Valerenga), Igiebor (Anorthosis). Cornelius won’t be held hostage. 

MLS isn’t some footballing leper colony or Valinor.

My point isn't that there isn't an MLS -> Europe path, we're talking about a guy who has done just that, it's that the MLS -> Europe -> MLS -> Back to Europe path isn't something we've historically seen work. I think in the list you mention, the only player who has done that is Dike who did so at 20 vs. Cornelius being 25 by the time next MLS season starts, 26 at the youngest for when he'd potentially go back to Europe. And if we're arguing that he should just establish himself in the MLS for the rest of his career, fine, but he'll have that opportunity at 28 as well, and he can spend the rest of his prime trying to take his career to where he wants it to be.

VFC have sent players to Europe, but of the list you're talking about, either they go to massive clubs like Davies or Odunze or Pecile, or they go to clubs that are a step below MLS so they can position themselves to go to better clubs later. Colyn plays dutch second div which isn't at MLS standards, and he is very much not someone who will play for the PSV seniors anytime soon, but he's put his name out there and will eventually land somewhere nice. Pecile hasn't played meaningful minutes of professional soccer in like a year, and Theo Bair's club is probably below MLS value. All these guys have seen the opportunity MLS has offered them and decided that it would be best for their career to go elsewhere to build up their reputation. We can talk about fan fetishization of european leagues or whatever, but these are players who have made these decisions with the help of agents whose jobs are to be professional evaluators of future opportunities.

[Kadenge]

Playing 1st Division Greece for a mid table team gives him a better opportunity to be scouted by other Euro leagues. It's a path to a higher level if he continues to perform. National team mgrs like JH push their players to move to higher leagues in Europe and while not all Euro leagues are better than MLS, it does open other doors. He is still 24 and he paired Vitoria in that 2-0 historic win over the US at BMO over 3 yrs ago and prior to that was a regular starter for Canada.  Playing time with a club is not solely due to ability. Sometimes it is the system or style a club mgr utilizes or a personality conflict...Lukaku at Chelsea, Pogba & CR7 at MU etc.  Derek has started every game in the last 2 seasons for his current club. There is no need to return to MLS, unless he has no other options. The best players on Canada and the US play in Europe and I would guess that the rest who are under 30 would make the move if the right league/club made an offer. I'm sure Derek will make a move up soon if he stays where he is.

[footballfreak]

2 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

My point isn't that there isn't an MLS -> Europe path, we're talking about a guy who has done just that, it's that the MLS -> Europe -> MLS -> Back to Europe path isn't something we've historically seen work. I think in the list you mention, the only player who has done that is Dike who did so at 20 vs. Cornelius being 25 by the time next MLS season starts, 26 at the youngest for when he'd potentially go back to Europe. And if we're arguing that he should just establish himself in the MLS for the rest of his career, fine, but he'll have that opportunity at 28 as well, and he can spend the rest of his prime trying to take his career to where he wants it to be.

I can certainly think of someone who made it work - Landon Donovan. There are also countless cases of European players who came over, flopped in MLS, and went back to play in Europe in Belgium, Switzerland, etc. The Whitecaps have a graveyard of those guys, and I suspect Allesandro Schöpf has a good chance to be the next one.

Regarding Cornelius specifically, what path he takes is irrelevant. No team in Europe is looking at his transfer history and going “oh no, he left Europe once already. No backsies”. He’s not any less likely to earn a transfer at 26 having come home than any other 26 year old who stayed in North America the entire time.

On that note, I decided to look at outgoing transfers from MLS, aged 25+, in 2022. I had to stop writing the names, and ages down after I got through 6 clubs because I’m on mobile and it became a massive chore. Instead, here’s the list of outgoing clubs. Reminder this is only outgoing players aged 25+:

Lens, Dundee, PAS Giannina, Degefors, PEC Zwolle, Lillestrøm, Venezia, Hibernian, Nottingham Forest, KVC Westerlo, Stoke City, RB Salzburg (2), RB Leipzig, KV Kortrijk, IK Start, HJK Helsinki, Huddersfield, Botev Plovdiv, Aberdeen, GIF Sundsvall, FC Cartagena, Vicenza, Pyunik

Pretty much the same as what you’d expect from any European league of MLS quality - a few guys moved to bigger leagues, a fair number of lateral moves, and some noticeable downgrades.

Safe to say, if he’s good enough in MLS, Cornelius still get to where he wants to go via Vancouver or Orlando. I will reiterate however, that he is still unproven at MLS level. It would represent a major sign of growth if he manages to stick and play well at that level.

Quote

Allthese guys have seen the opportunity MLS has offered them and decided that it would be best for their career to go elsewhere to build up their reputation.

That is an interesting way of saying none of them were good enough, and needed to move a step or two down to get playing time. That step down just happened to be in Europe.

Which reiterates my whole point. It’s not better to be in Europe just for the sake of being in Europe. That’s the fetishization I’m talking about. Sometimes Europe represents a better opportunity for growth than MLS, sometimes it doesn’t. As the quality of MLS continues to increase, there are fewer and fewer European leagues that offer a superior pathway to top 5 football. Cornelius being at a small club in Greece does not represent better competition, facilities, or a signal boost over MLS.

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 minutes ago, footballfreak said:

I can certainly think of someone who made it work - Landon Donovan. There are also countless cases of European players who came over, flopped in MLS, and went back to play in Europe in Belgium, Switzerland, etc. The Whitecaps have a graveyard of those guys, and I suspect Allesandro Schöpf has a good chance to be the next one.

Regarding Cornelius specifically, what path he takes is irrelevant. No team in Europe is looking at his transfer history and going “oh no, he left Europe once already. No backsies”. He’s not any less likely to earn a transfer at 26 having come home than any other 26 year old who stayed in North America the entire time.

On that note, I decided to look at outgoing transfers from MLS, aged 25+, in 2022. I had to stop writing the names, and ages down after I got through 6 clubs because I’m on mobile and it became a massive chore. Instead, here’s the list of outgoing clubs. Reminder this is only outgoing players aged 25+:

Lens, Dundee, PAS Giannina, Degefors, PEC Zwolle, Lillestrøm, Venezia, Hibernian, Nottingham Forest, KVC Westerlo, Stoke City, RB Salzburg (2), RB Leipzig, KV Kortrijk, IK Start, HJK Helsinki, Huddersfield, Botev Plovdiv, Aberdeen, GIF Sundsvall, FC Cartagena, Vicenza, Pyunik

Pretty much the same as what you’d expect from any European league of MLS quality - a few guys moved to bigger leagues, a fair number of lateral moves, and some noticeable downgrades.

Safe to say, if he’s good enough in MLS, Cornelius still get to where he wants to go via Vancouver or Orlando. I will reiterate however, that he is still unproven at MLS level. It would represent a major sign of growth if he manages to stick and play well at that level.

That is an interesting way of saying none of them were good enough, and needed to move a step or two down to get playing time. That step down just happened to be in Europe.

Which reiterates my whole point. It’s not better to be in Europe just for the sake of being in Europe. That’s the fetishization I’m talking about. Sometimes Europe represents a better opportunity for growth than MLS, sometimes it doesn’t. As the quality of MLS continues to increase, there are fewer and fewer European leagues that offer a superior pathway to top 5 football. Cornelius being at a small club in Greece does not represent better competition, facilities, or a signal boost over MLS.

You sound like you've never traveled outside Perth County, or similar, and have a chip on the old shoulder.

European football is massive football density. And it's not reliant on pay to play academies which makes for soft players, or NCAA's and USports with 4 month seasons. Or failure hedged and coddled because you can't relegate. The pressure, demand, social milieu and then pure density is not fathomed by folks like you who talk "fetish" out of ignorance.

I was watching my local team last week, 7th tier, amateur, 300 in the stands, and had a tall foreign man and ever taller son behind me, the young man was wearing a cool Cruyff shirt. They were Swedes though, the young fellow studied math and played 3rd tier in Sweden, in Sundsvall.

He was moving here and wanted to play competitive. "Is this your level", I asked him, and he said maybe a bit higher. "How many teams are like this in Catalonia?" he wondered, thinking of his options. 400 in 7th tier I told him, and he and his father laughed. Maybe 70 in Barcelona. A lot to choose from.

That's what the difference is, 30 will promote, 40 relegate, fans press, board members fret, coaches are paid loose change, no player pays more than 70€ a month in club fees, there's a massive density of intensity. A massive substructure under even the most modest pro team. Players perceive this in Europe.

Found a pic of the shirt he was wearing this was online.

[footballfreak]

2 hours ago, Kadenge said:

Playing 1st Division Greece for a mid table team gives him a better opportunity to be scouted by other Euro leagues. It's a path to a higher level if he continues to perform. National team mgrs like JH push their players to move to higher leagues in Europe and while not all Euro leagues are better than MLS, it does open other doors. He is still 24 and he paired Vitoria in that 2-0 historic win over the US at BMO over 3 yrs ago and prior to that was a regular starter for Canada.  Playing time with a club is not solely due to ability. Sometimes it is the system or style a club mgr utilizes or a personality conflict...Lukaku at Chelsea, Pogba & CR7 at MU etc.  Derek has started every game in the last 2 seasons for his current club. There is no need to return to MLS, unless he has no other options. The best players on Canada and the US play in Europe and I would guess that the rest who are under 30 would make the move if the right league/club made an offer. I'm sure Derek will make a move up soon if he stays where he is.

I can look up highlights of every MLS match on youtube. I can watch full live games and replays of every MLS game on various streaming services. That includes the reserve league games. How do European scouts have an easier time spotting Cornelius than if he was an MLS regular?

You may not be able to think of any good reasons to return, but I can  certainly think of one - that’s where his contract is. If he wants a big transfer, he needs to earn it on the field. The Caps are not going to loan him back to Panetolikos in the last year of his deal, and Panetoklios is not capable of buying him. Maybe he gets lucky and has a good World Cup and the Whitecaps cash in a modest transfer with a bigger club in January. But the more likely scenario is he gets one season as a cheap MLS depth piece to show his stuff. Maybe he leaves at the MLS deadline if he’s deemed surplus, or on a free if management decides to keep him down the stretch for a playoff run. Hopefully he plays well enough and gets resigned with a starter’s salary. But there is zero reason to think he ends up at Panetoklios again in 2023 unless he’s considered below MLS replacement level - which seems very unlikely given his national team performances.

[footballfreak]

15 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You sound like you've never traveled outside Perth County, or similar, and have a chip on the old shoulder.

Where? No counties where I live but cool story. Totally relevant to what we were actually discussing and not at all a massive punt.

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 minutes ago, footballfreak said:

Where? No counties where I live but cool story. Totally relevant to what we were actually discussing and not at all a massive punt.

True it was a dumb remark. But you are still being parochial, county or not.

[RS]

15 minutes ago, footballfreak said:

Where? No counties where I live but cool story. Totally relevant to what we were actually discussing and not at all a massive punt.

I misread that at first.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

https://www.expressen.se/sport/fotboll/vm-2022/vm-backen-derek-cornelius-overens-med-malmo-ff/

Edited December 9, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Unnamed Trialist]

16 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

https://www.expressen.se/sport/fotboll/vm-2022/vm-backen-derek-cornelius-overens-med-malmo-ff/

Cripes, just keeps going. Even guys who didn't play in the World Cup.

Now we need all those lower level guys to fill in behind them.

Not that Sweden is a higher level than Greece, but I think he's been on his Whitecaps salary until now. So this must mean a salary jump as well.

[narduch]

1 minute ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Cripes, just keeps going. Even guys who didn't play in the World Cup.

Now we need all those lower level guys to fill in behind them.

Not that Sweden is a higher level than Greece, but I think he's been on his Whitecaps salary until now. So this must mean a salary jump as well.

Scouting can be lazy too.

Guys are probably getting a 'World Cup roster bump'.

Now someone please take Fraser

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

Interesting move if true.

Normally a big club in Sweden but only 7th this last year.  0 for 6 in the Europa League group stage most recently.

Their response to a Real Madrid tweet today was amusing.

Edited December 9, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Unnamed Trialist]

I'm reading 5 million Swedish Krona, that is 450 thousand euros.

[Shway]

Is this a step up?

Step up for club, but what about the overall league?

[Floortom]

9 minutes ago, Shway said:

Is this a step up?

Step up for club, but what about the overall league?

Leagues are pretty similar although Greek league has more higher end clubs. There are 3-4 clubs in the Greek League that are bigger than any Swedish team.

But with Malmo he has a decent shot at European competition which he would never get with Panetolikos.

 

[Dominic94]

12 minutes ago, Shway said:

Is this a step up?

Step up for club, but what about the overall league?

He will play, it’s below mls but it’s not a bad league at all. Tbh he should start there garunteed and I’m not sure that was the case at VWFC. I think he’s good enough to play there but who knows what their plan is.

[CanadaFan123]

Looking at Malmos roster they have a lot of experience. Certainly the biggest club he’s ever been at so it will be a challenge to get time.

[Shway]

5 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Looking at Malmos roster they have a lot of experience. Certainly the biggest club he’s ever been at so it will be a challenge to get time.

Hoping he signs with the some guarantees, because playing every week is underrated Vs a little pay increase and sitting on the bench.

[MM3/MM2/MM]

 

HIs salary with the Whitecaps is $127,00.00 would  he make a lot more in Sweden?  Note: not sure the accuracy of the below.  

[Chad_Impact]

Decent move I think, Malmo are a big club. 

I was hoping CF MTL would make a move for him now that we need cb's.

[InglewoodJack]

Malmo is a hockey power, so you know they had to get in on some Canadians now that our players are the talk of the town.

[CanadaFan123]

30 minutes ago, MM3/MM2/MM said:

 

HIs salary with the Whitecaps is $127,00.00 would  he make a lot more in Sweden?  Note: not sure the accuracy of the below.  

Probably a decent bump up. If that average is to be believed that’s a modest bump but then you factor in that the average wage for Malmo, as a bigger team, is probably close to double that and it’s a nice boost.