Fikayo Tomori

[JuicyHam]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Is anyone out there actually hopeful that Tomori joins us? 

I mean I don't think this thread would be active if there wasn't at least a little hope

[Shway]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Is anyone out there actually hopeful that Tomori joins us? 

Hopeful that he'll join us soon? Not me.
Hopeful that he'll join us in a few years? Most definitely.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

5 hours ago, Obinna said:

Is anyone out there actually hopeful that Tomori joins us? 

I look at a couple players I know well. James Tomkins and Mark Noble. And if you don't know those names, it should give you a bit of hope. 

Both have double digit u21 caps; Noble was captain and made his club debut at 17 and Tomkins played in the 2012 Olympics. But neither ( outside my circles) have ever been serious shouts for full caps. Noble is eligible for Ireland through grandparents I think but has always been clear about not wanting to for...well... noble reasons.( Tomori does have more ties and history, however brief, with Canada than he to Ireland.)

I would say there are probably a lot of similar cases that I don't know offhand at other clubs.  

Long story short, early success and youth caps can't by the numbers guarantee you will play for England even if you have a solid club career. (Though again being at "big" clubs like Chelsea and thereby being up the table means a lot. Lots of mediocre Man Utd players have caps.)

Sadly or not, it seems we just need to be the next prettiest girl at the ball, if the opportunity arises. And as said it will be a while, if it comes, maybe 2024?

[costarg]

The guy is 21, if he passes Zouma and Christensen in the pecking order and becomes a starter for Chelsea, England WILL cap him first opportunity they get.  Its not like he's 26-27, he's really ahead of the game for his age. Mature, composed, athletic and has proven himself every challenge he's faced thus far.

If that doesn't happen, I feel Nigeria is still ahead of us.  He's got a few buddies from his days at Derby on the Nigerian team already.

   

[johnyb]

Agree that if he becomes a starter at Chelsea it's over for us. If he remains a fringe player in the PL then he will not pass up the opportunity to play in a World Cup for Canada. It could be as early as 2022 IF we qualify, but for sure by the run up to 2026 where we are a guarantee, he will join us. 

[Obinna]

56 minutes ago, johnyb said:

Agree that if he becomes a starter at Chelsea it's over for us. If he remains a fringe player in the PL then he will not pass up the opportunity to play in a World Cup for Canada. It could be as early as 2022 IF we qualify, but for sure by the run up to 2026 where we are a guarantee, he will join us. 

You could say the same thing about Nigeria, no? 

What makes you think we have the inside track on them, just curious?

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

6 hours ago, costarg said:

The guy is 21, if he passes Zouma and Christensen in the pecking order and becomes a starter for Chelsea, England WILL cap him first opportunity they get.  

Interesting discussions.

I think we might letting our - Canadian national team - newish approach seep into the reckoning here a bit.  The English press and public are pretty prideful about not clamouring for dual or dodgy nationals like they see Spain, Brazil, Italy and even Germany doing.

They will cap young, see Sterling, Rooney, Hudson-Odoi, Walcott.  

Sterling is a similar case, born in Jamaica, but playing at the highest level three years earlier.  

The guy with the shortest England career so far - Chalobah might be one to point to for giving someone a cap to tie him, (again born elsewhere) but they waited until last year after he played a massive number of youth games for them. 

Declan Rice is another interesting case, but from everything I read, it was less them chasing him and more him being told he might have a chance and pursuing the switch.  That being the case even though that position is more of a problem than centre back, where the depth is good.

Sort of fun to watch in a macabre way and as I said maybe another reason for me to want to see Frank fail.

Edited August 16, 2019 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Interesting discussions.

I think we might letting our - Canadian national team - newish approach seep into the reckoning here a bit.  The English press and public are pretty prideful about not clamouring for dual or dodgy nationals like they see Spain, Brazil, Italy and even Germany doing.

They will cap young, see Sterling, Rooney, Hudson-Odoi, Walcott.  

Sterling is a similar case, born in Jamaica, but playing at the highest level three years earlier.  

The guy with the shortest England career so far - Chalobah might be one to point to for giving someone a cap to tie him, (again born elsewhere) but they waited until last year after he played a massive number of youth games for them. 

Declan Rice is another interesting case, but from everything I read, it was less them chasing him and more him being told he might have a chance and pursuing the switch.  That being the case even though that position is more of a problem than centre back, where the depth is good.

Sort of fun to watch in a macabre way and as I said maybe another reason for me to want to see Frank fail.

Name one dodgy Spain national, or even dual. In the last decade say. Name one for Brazil as well. 

It lends credit to an argument to not talk bs about things you don't know: England has a long history of poaching players who are eligible for other nations, much more than Spain and Brazil, and probably quite a bit more than Germany.

Apart from the fact that club teams have zero national pride and fans could care less if they are watching English players on a top EPL side, as proven year after year by many clubs.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Name one dodgy Spain national, or even dual.

Diego Costa, off the top of my head. Spain needed an out and out striker and got one, the famous example. 

The "dodgy" part was from their perspective, as I see it.  I could have made that clearer but I thought the "prideful" part at the beginning would show that all of it was pejorative. And it was about the clamour, the chase, not even the actual obtaining. 

From my own perspective, I do not see England "poaching" much.  I see people wanting to play for them, often playing a lot of youth games for them,  and then them calling them up if they think they are good enough.  

But I am often wrong and would very much consider any of the long history you mentioned. From memory, we have Hargreaves, obviously, but it is certainly down to the player and unfortunately our association.   The three I mentioned would be similarly in terms of the player wanting it. Zaha went the other way.  If they really wanted to push, they have all these players that the big Premier League clubs bring in at a very young age and people like Bale and De Bruyne. 

 Again, it was me trying to reflect what I hear.  I appreciate the post: any opportunity to learn and see another perspective. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[SF]

Marcos Senna as well

[apbsmith]

Not to overly play devil's advocate but I know Spain tried fairly hard to pursue Lucas Hernandez or perhaps that was more fans being hopeful because he came through Atletico Madrid academy for 7 years.

Part of Hernandez decision was quite personal though, so IMO Spain didn't have much chance. Yes Spanish father, but he was born in Marseille to a French Mother, father fully abandoned him when he was 10 years old and he played in  France's Youth set up since 13.  

Side note (fun fact), I read he almost changed his name pre World Cup to his mother's maiden name. Not that it should matter, but I think Hernandez is a cooler name then Py & could easily be miss pronounced for "pee".

Overall though I don't consider Spain or Brazil a country that poaches players by any means. Yes there will be the odd exception but both countries have excellent player development paths.

Edited August 17, 2019 by apbsmith

[Unnamed Trialist]

I consider it a virtue on my part that I completely forgot about Diego Costa, well done, I was wrong. Thank Heavens.

[Bison44]

Dont talk BS about things you dont know...OOPPPS you called me on an obvious. glaring and current dodgy Spanish international.  

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I consider it a virtue on my part that I completely forgot about Diego Costa

Honestly no worries, it's the internet and it is easy for me not to forget because I was just repeating back my impressions of the English supporters view of those situations, which I hear all the time. 

More interesting to me and more to the point is whether that has any bearing on Tomori.  I think it, and history, points to them not capping him until he could do an actual job in their side.  I could be wrong or I could be right and their attitude changes in the future, but that is just how I see it now.  

[apbsmith]

Straying a little off topic, but man England's young RB depth is insane. Hopefully from a Tomori perspective that also becomes the case at CB for England .

[dyslexic nam]

I gotta stop checking this thread. 

[johnyb]

On 8/16/2019 at 1:27 PM, Obinna said:

You could say the same thing about Nigeria, no? 

What makes you think we have the inside track on them, just curious?

Sorry for the late response, was unplugged for a few days. No more than a gut feeling but I think a combination of him playing for our youth teams and a guaranteed spot in 2026 puts us ahead of Nigeria.  

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

Might get a chance, sooner than later.  Zouma and co. look open to all comers, today. Though to be fair, N'arch are a fun team to watch, score and concede goals for fun. 

[Ansem]

No Tomori

 

 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

No Tomori

And add another to the centre back pool - Tyrone Mings

We live in, very restrained, hope.  

Edited August 29, 2019 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[dyslexic nam]

The Canadian Goldilocks zone: 

- a player who is good enough to elevate the play of our team, but not good enough to warrant a call to a better team for which he is eligible. 

[Macksam]

Pretty soon players like this will be obsolete to us.

[Reign]

15 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Pretty soon players like this will be obsolete to us.

A top tier EFL Championship CB ? I hope you are right, but I don’t think that is pretty soon. 

[Dominic94]

32 minutes ago, Reign said:

A top tier EFL Championship CB ? I hope you are right, but I don’t think that is pretty soon. 

Honestly he’s not wrong, Belgium got good fast.

 

With a half Canadian league and more teams coming, it means more places and minutes for CDN players. 

 

Another team means 1k minutes for a U21 player, the whole limit is similar to the German setup and look at fast and well that worked. 

Theres actually a lot of good prospects with the MLS teams that we know about but they just aren’t playing, if they had a chance at regular minutes, where would we be ?

theres talent that we haven’t yet found and when they get minutes they’ll grow. We just have to give chances so yes this could happen fast.

[Reign]

1 hour ago, Dominic94 said:

Honestly he’s not wrong, Belgium got good fast.

 

With a half Canadian league and more teams coming, it means more places and minutes for CDN players. 

 

Another team means 1k minutes for a U21 player, the whole limit is similar to the German setup and look at fast and well that worked. 

Theres actually a lot of good prospects with the MLS teams that we know about but they just aren’t playing, if they had a chance at regular minutes, where would we be ?

theres talent that we haven’t yet found and when they get minutes they’ll grow. We just have to give chances so yes this could happen fast.

I don’t think we are in the position to compare ourselves to Germany and Belgium, two of the best footballing countries in the world. Belgium got good fast because they completely re structured the way they developed talent across the country at all age groups. Of course we are going to naturally grow and create better players, but  a player like Tomori would be a star cb in then MLS. So us having cbs in the MLS that hardly get minutes and tomorrow coming in and being a star the gap is still wide.