Scott Arfield

[narduch]

Couldn't he replace Wotherspoon, who is hurt anyways?

[Floortom]

1 minute ago, TGAA_Star said:

Exactly you're going to have to drop Osorio, Kaye or Atiba to make room for Arfield so tell me who you going to drop? Especially when Osorio, Kaye and Atiba all play regularly for their clubs and have been at a high level for the most part

You dont have to "drop" any of them

1. Wotherspoon who has been called to every window is out with a serious knee injury.

2. We are playing 3 match windows - rotation and depth is important

3. Oso and Kaye will be out of season for two months by the time of next window. One camp + a friendly wont make them fully fit. need other guys who can step in

 

 

[El Hombre]

2 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

For me it isn’t just about whether or not he walks into the starting 11 and displaces one of the core players.  It is also about if he can strengthen our bench.  Does he represent such an upgrade over Oso (who I think is his closest attacking mid counterpart) that he should displace him?  Maybe, maybe not - and the out-of-season factor needs to be assessed by Herdman.  But aside from that, I am pretty confident that he is still likely an upgrade over the Frasers and Wotherspoons of the squad who are a step down IMO.  Displacing one of them so that there is no drop off in quality if a sub is needed would also be important.  If one of our mids pulls up with a hammy in game 1, I would feel better knowing that we have a starting mid for Rangers that we can call on.  Plus that sort of role wouldn’t overly tax a guy who is likely managing his minutes, and it would maybe be a good way to reintegrate him into the squad without a lot of friction.  

This is sort of what I was referring to by looking at things in a vacuum.  As big a fan of Fraser as I am, I am loathe to admit that a half-strength Arfield is a better soccer player than Liam, but it's true.  However, Fraser has a very different role than Arfield.  So it isn't a question of replacing one for the other.  With regards to Wotherspoon, he played in October, but not in November.  Arfield wasn't in any shape to play in October, but would he have been satisfied with sitting on the bench in November when he is trying to make it back into the club team?  Not sure.  Although the fact that Wotherspoon is most likely out as well, this opens the door some more.

There are two things that you have to factor into this conversation:

1 - We're only ever going to have a 23-man squad.

2 - Herdman approaches each game with a specific game plan and creates a depth chart based on that so that he has cover for every position.

The first point is the most important.  We all think that the squad should be larger, but for whatever reason, it hasn't been.  So you have to work within this constraint.  So you have to drop someone who plays the same position if you are going to include Arfield.

I guess the only point here is that a player like Brym won't be dropped for Arfield.  If we are to include Arfield, it'll have to be at the expense of someone that I've mentioned above.

[El Hombre]

6 minutes ago, Floortom said:

You dont have to "drop" any of them

1. Wotherspoon who has been called to every window is out with a serious knee injury.

2. We are playing 3 match windows - rotation and depth is important

3. Oso and Kaye will be out of season for two months by the time of next window. One camp + a friendly wont make them fully fit. need other guys who can step in

 

 

I guess my other point is that this situation has only been applicable to this window coming up where we have no idea who will be called.  However, reading some of the posts over the last few days, it seems (at least the subtext anyways) is that Arfield not being involved yet to this point is some sort of snub.  My contention is that he may not have warranted the call in September, October or November.

[Obinna]

34 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

It really feels like a lot of people are looking at Arfield in a vacuum.  Yes, Arfield is a good player.  There is no debating that.  He has skill. 

However, does he have the right skillset to supplant the existing players?  Because if you include Arfield, you have to drop one of Osorio, Kaye or Hutch.  This is basically what this whole debate comes down to.  I don't think Arfield was in any shape to replace any of those guys in the first three windows and play the style that this position requires.  This is a guy that got 3 starts in August and one in October for his club team.  That doesn't really inspire confidence that he would be up to the demands of the position, which is more defensively responsible rather than offensively minded.

Granted this debate changes in January because two of the competing players will be out of season.  So the door may open a bit for him.  But I don't personally think it is as much of a slam dunk as others that he is an obvious upgrade on the alternative playing that specific role.

I agree with pretty much everything you have said, and I think it boils down to the part I have bolded. 

The only part I would nit-pick I suppose would be that someone needs to be dropped. There's nothing to say Herdman can't carry an extra player, right? 

Players who are not in season are risk for injury, I imagine, plus this will be our most demanding window travel-wise, so those are some reasons Herdman may want to carry an extra player or two. 

Mitrovic may be under consideration here too.

[Califax]

I love MAK. 

There is no world where an out of season MAK should be considered untouchable in place of an in-form Arfield. We are playing three crucial games. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Califax

[Bison44]

2 minutes ago, TGAA_Star said:

Exactly you're going to have to drop Osorio, Kaye or Atiba to make room for Arfield so tell me who you going to drop? Especially when Osorio, Kaye and Atiba all play regularly for their clubs and have been at a high level for the most part

Its a multiple game window.  You call them all, you play whoever fits the role for the game your in like Hombre said.  Eustaquio/Kaye for one with Oso as a offensive sub, Wotherspoon defensive sub....next game you want Atiba/Oso, with Arfield and Piette subbing in..etc etc.  Wouldnt you rather have more crayons in your box than less when you are drawing a picture??  Let alone calling guys who are injured and are most likely not going to play at all over the window.  

And I dont mean to pick on anyone, but I still see these comments like "if the players will accept him", and "make it easier to integrate to the team".  But Herdman can parachute IKE into the lineup (to be a backup) and its all cool...and we all seem to want some combo of Jebison/Dias/Mitorivc/FLores etc get called and no one worries much about whether the team will accept them, or whether they'll upset the chemistry.  

[El Hombre]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I agree with pretty much everything you have said, and I think it boils down to the part I have bolded. 

The only part I would nit-pick I suppose would be that someone needs to be dropped. There's nothing to say Herdman can't carry an extra player, right? 

Players who are not in season are risk for injury, I imagine, plus this will be our most demanding window travel-wise, so those are some reasons Herdman may want to carry an extra player or two. 

Mitrovic may be under consideration here too.

Herdman "should" carry an extra player.  Someone "should" give me 2.5 million dollars.  El Salvador's Larin "should" be in jail for the hacks on Buchanan in September.  All we can go by is what has happened and if we haven't carried an extra player, then it probably won't happen.

Also, the Mitrovic thing is interesting.  If it comes down to it, who makes the team, Mitrovic or Arfield?

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Herdman "should" carry an extra player.  Someone "should" give me 2.5 million dollars.  El Salvador's Larin "should" be in jail for the hacks on Buchanan in September.  All we can go by is what has happened and if we haven't carried an extra player, then it probably won't happen.

Also, the Mitrovic thing is interesting.  If it comes down to it, who makes the team, Mitrovic or Arfield?

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it's Mitrovic. I wouldn't really have a problem with that either. 

[dyslexic nam]

It would be great to grab a promising dual but I would be interested how a young up-and-comer like Mitrovic compares to a wily vet like Arfield - especially in the context of pressure cooker WCQ matches.  

[Bison44]

I'll be happy if he calls a full compliment of healthy guys who actually are ready to play.  

[Obinna]

7 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

All we can go by is what has happened and if we haven't carried an extra player, then it probably won't happen.

Also, the Mitrovic thing is interesting.  If it comes down to it, who makes the team, Mitrovic or Arfield?

Technically we carried an extra four players in October....they just injured and never showed up

[El Hombre]

29 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Technically we carried an extra four players in October....they just injured and never showed up

I really think that was performative more than anything.  My guess is there was never a possibility of them playing.

[VinceA]

30 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Technically we carried an extra four players in October....they just injured and never showed up

Yep this is why I don't consider our squad to have been extended at any point during WCQ, Herdman knew what he was doing.

The CSA probably don't want to spend more on plane tickets.

[grigorio]

FWIW, in-form Arfield is second only to Eustaquio when it comes to quality in our midfield. I'm sure Oso, MAK, Fraser, Piette, Atiba (gasp!) et al would also agree. If he's healthy, and performing you make room for him. 

[Free kick]

12 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

I really think that was performative more than anything.  My guess is there was never a possibility of them playing.

Indeed. its one thing to add and include someone like Shaffleburg and Brym (U23 players who have never been part of the MNT squad) versus adding someone who was previously a starter.  With the former, they will just be happy to be there even if they dont play

Edited December 6, 2021 by Free kick

[Obinna]

@VinceA @El Hombre I agree with you both, guys.

Even though I was saying that in jest, I don't think we can rule out a larger squad for sure.

I am not predicting it or anything, I just don't think the discussion needs to be constrained by the idea that Herdman will only carry 23 players no matter what, just because that's what he's done so far. 

By the way, I am missing something? Why couldn't Arfield just come in and fill Wotherspoon's spot? Unless we have penciled somebody else in that would seem like the obvious way he gets on within the 23-man "limit"...

[El Hombre]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

By the way, I am missing something? Why couldn't Arfield just come in and fill Wotherspoon's spot? Unless we have penciled somebody else in that would seem like the obvious way he gets on within the 23-man "limit"...

He totally could.  And if he's playing consistently with Rangers and is up for the travel, he probably should.

Personally, I don't buy into any of the personality issue stuff.  I think that's all just speculation.  I think there are legitimate reasons for other players being chosen over Arfield, however those reasons are disappearing as we get closer to January.  He still may not be a guaranteed starter though.

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, El Hombre said:

He totally could.  And if he's playing consistently with Rangers and is up for the travel, he probably should.

Personally, I don't buy into any of the personality issue stuff.  I think that's all just speculation.  I think there are legitimate reasons for other players being chosen over Arfield, however those reasons are disappearing as we get closer to January.  He still may not be a guaranteed starter though.

Yup, this is exactly how I see it as well. The most concrete thing I have seen is a blue cap from Hoilett lol.

I am very confident there is no issue with his personality whatsoever. Like yourself, I just think players were legitimately ahead of him because they were playing well. Meanwhile, Arfield was more out of the Rangers team than in it.  

That's changed now. Let's see what happens. Eustaquio remains the only guaranteed starter in midfield as well.

[CanadaFan123]

Could it be that the younger guys revolted against Scottie and his DJ choices? They weren't down with Dire Straits? 

[Joe MacCarthy]

6 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Could it be that the younger guys revolted against Scottie and his DJ choices? They weren't down with Dire Straits? 

Drake vs Dire Straits, and people say society hasn't devolved.

[Cheeta]

14 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Could it be that the younger guys revolted against Scottie and his DJ choices? They weren't down with Dire Straits? 

Dire Straits!  

Bloody Hell how old do you think Scottie is?

(Wrote Cheeta as Alice Cooper is playing over the shop radio).

[CanadaFan123]

2 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

Dire Straits!  

Bloody Hell how old do you think Scottie is?

(Wrote Cheeta as Alice Cooper is playing over the shop radio).

I didn't just come up with that out of thin air! If you watch training videos from 2018 Arfield was playing (and singing) "Walk of life" for the team. 

[Bison44]

I thought it was sultans of swing.   Well, this is all different now, walk of life was much newer and hipper....my whole perspective on this cultural divide among the players has changed.  

Seems to me I have heard Roy keane tell stories about how he did not relate to (and didnt really care to) the younger players at MANU, and the young guys used to hide the TV remote on him so he couldnt watch his programs.  And yet the won everything back then.  

[grigorio]

5 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

I thought it was sultans of swing.   Well, this is all different now, walk of life was much newer and hipper....my whole perspective on this cultural divide among the players has changed.  

Seems to me I have heard Roy keane tell stories about how he did not relate to (and didnt really care to) the younger players at MANU, and the young guys used to hide the TV remote on him so he couldnt watch his programs.  And yet the won everything back then.  

def Walk of Life 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by grigorio