Jonathan David

[VinceA]

16 minutes ago, Stoppage Time said:

What is happening differently at Lille than with the CMNT which allows David to score for the former but not so much for the latter?

Against better teams at the WC Herdman decided that getting overrun in  the midfield was the way to go and as a result our attackers no longer had much service.

Also in some cases Davies' second-half hero ball meant nothing was going to happen since he'd try to dribble 3 guys and turn over the ball.

this is an exaggeration of course but there's multiple reasons David has struggled with Canada, including some he's at fault for, and some out of his control.

Edited January 15, 2023 by VinceA

[kacbru]

I think I saw he had 40-50 touches on the ball.  That certainly wasn't happening in recent CMNT games.

[PegCityCam]

6 hours ago, Stoppage Time said:

What is happening differently at Lille than with the CMNT which allows David to score for the former but not so much for the latter?

22 goals in 38 games. Not only is that a better rate than at Lille but it's better than any Canadian men's player, ever.

[Bison44]

15 minutes ago, PegCityCam said:

22 goals in 38 games. Not only is that a better rate than at Lille but it's better than any Canadian men's player, ever.

Just goes to show how perception and bias color what we believe to be true.   

[Bigandy]

18 hours ago, VinceA said:

Against better teams at the WC Herdman decided that getting overrun in  the midfield was the way to go and as a result our attackers no longer had much service.

Also in some cases Davies' second-half hero ball meant nothing was going to happen since he'd try to dribble 3 guys and turn over the ball.

this is an exaggeration of course but there's multiple reasons David has struggled with Canada, including some he's at fault for, and some out of his control.

This is an interesting tactical dilemma. I agree that we were overrun in the midfield but I dont think that adding a 3rd player would have made much of a difference in getting David proper service. A 3 man midfield means david is up front alone against both CB's. The belguim game, we didnt need a 3rd midfielder to dominate the ball. They sat deep and screened passes into JD feet. 

The hero ball from davies is actually part of the solution, even though the success rate isnt great and its frustrating to watch at times. Davies will drag 3-4 players out of position and this creates space for JD. 

The way I see it, is we have a few options to get JD proper service from a tactical set up. 
1. Drag players out of position through dribbling at defenders. pick out the free man with a pass.
2. Have a lock picker who can play passes that are unexpected and will therefore give JD more time. (this one is tough because its basically saying, we need a WC attacking mid)
3. More rotation amongst our attacking players. David drops into midfield and Buchanan makes a diagonal run into the space behind. 
4. Quick interplay. This is essentially breaking down a deep opponent because our speed of play is too high for them. We can do this in concacaf, but good luck at the WC. 
5. Play him as a #10/ Support striker. Instead of focusing on getting him proper service, maybe we allow him to be the playmaker who gives service to larin etc. I think hes at his best when he reads the play and pops up in certain positions. If hes the focal point of our attack, its harder for him to drift into these positions unmarked. 

[Free kick]

21 hours ago, Stoppage Time said:

What is happening differently at Lille than with the CMNT which allows David to score for the former but not so much for the latter?

The sample size

[jhoops__]

David is really turning into a pretty incredible player.   Not only did he score twice yesterday he also ran 12.5 km by far more than any other player!

[solsous]

30 minutes ago, jhoops__ said:

David is really turning into a pretty incredible player.   Not only did he score twice yesterday he also ran 12.5 km by far more than any other player!

I was critical of David in a different post.  I take all of my criticism back.

[Shway]

He just can’t play a lone striker against better opposition. It’s almost like he’s better in a 10.

Edit: WithCanada it seems. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Shway

[dyslexic nam]

While the WC introduced a whole new level of opponents, Herdman definitely needs to solve the issue of how to get the most from all our players, including David.   Our first 11 is a solid squad even on an international scale (not saying we are world beaters - but it is a solid competitive squad).  But we need to know how to eek the most out of those guys that have the potential be game changers.   

[VinceA]

10 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

While the WC introduced a whole new level of opponents, Herdman definitely needs to solve the issue of how to get the most from all our players, including David.   Our first 11 is a solid squad even on an international scale (not saying we are world beaters - but it is a solid competitive squad).  But we need to know how to eek the most out of those guys that have the potential be game changers.   

I still feel like Herdman doesn't get we have a "too many cooks" situation when it comes to the attack. He's so focused on getting all our best attackers on the pitch it affects the game plan. It got badly exposed at the WC.

I get wanting to have all of Davies, Hoilett, Larin, David and Buchanan on the pitch but sometimes there's nothing wrong with bringing a strong weapon off the bench.

[Obinna]

13 minutes ago, VinceA said:

I still feel like Herdman doesn't get we have a "too many cooks" situation when it comes to the attack. He's so focused on getting all our best attackers on the pitch it affects the game plan. It got badly exposed at the WC.

I get wanting to have all of Davies, Hoilett, Larin, David and Buchanan on the pitch but sometimes there's nothing wrong with bringing a strong weapon off the bench.

I get the sense this issue goes away if we play Davies at LWB. Let him dominate that side of the pitch. Tajon can have his moments terrorizing the wide players on the right. 

Let everything else in the middle go through David. Have him drop deep to find pockets, collect on the half turn, then play from there. Where we get in trouble is when Davies plays hero ball in the middle of the park. Same can be said about Tajon, but to a lesser extent. I want both of these guys as wide as possible. Let David run the show in the middle, with Eustaquio and Kone backing him up.

 

[VinceA]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I get the sense this issue goes away if we play Davies at LWB. Let him dominate that side of the pitch. Tajon can have his moments terrorizing the wide players on the right. 

Let everything else in the middle go through David. Have him drop deep to find pockets, collect on the half turn, then play from there. Where we get in trouble is when Davies plays hero ball in the middle of the park. Same can be said about Tajon, but to a lesser extent. I want both of these guys as wide as possible. Let David run the show in the middle, with Eustaquio and Kone backing him up.

 

Yeah I feel a lot of attacking issues arise when Davies starts spending more time in the middle of the park. His assist for Larin against the US in Nashville is peak Davies play and we saw none of that at the WC.

[Obinna]

Just now, VinceA said:

Yeah I feel a lot of attacking issues arise when Davies starts spending more time in the middle of the park. His assist for Larin against the US in Nashville is peak Davies play and we saw none of that at the WC.

This was exactly the scenario I had in mind with Davies.

The game against the states in Hamilton was THE standout match for me from David. Even though he didn't score, he was everywhere. High, low, side-to-side, providing an outlet, taking the foul, slowing down the play, managing the game for us, etc. Everything went through him and he was brilliant. He was also playing without Davies.

It sounds weird to say, but I almost want Davies to get out of his way, if you know what I mean. Stay on the wing where you are world class, then let the game come to you instead of trying to find the game. This perhaps would stop Davies from trying to do too much.

If Herdman can get Davies playing like he did in Nashville, and David playing like he did in Hamilton, and if we can bring two of those things consistently together in the same game, we will be lethal.

Herdman needs to find a formation or strategy to make that happen.

[VinceA]

6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

This was exactly the scenario I had in mind with Davies.

The game against the states in Hamilton was THE standout match for me from David. Even though he didn't score, he was everywhere. High, low, side-to-side, providing an outlet, taking the foul, slowing down the play, managing the game for us, etc. Everything went through him and he was brilliant. He was also playing without Davies.

It sounds weird to say, but I almost want Davies to get out of his way, if you know what I mean. Stay on the wing where you are world class, then let the game come to you instead of trying to find the game. This perhaps would stop Davies from trying to do too much.

If Herdman can get Davies playing like he did in Nashville, and David playing like he did in Hamilton, and if we can bring two of those things consistently together in the same game, we will be lethal.

Herdman needs to find a formation or strategy to make that happen.

Part of it is I think David needs to feel empowered to stand-up to Davies. I don't mean it in any sort of power struggle way, but David should never defer to Davies on anything on the pitch. He's a capable player in his own right, but perhaps is too reserved and kind in important moments.

David should have fought for the WC Penalty, there was also a scoring opportunity in one game where David elected to pass it to Davies and even Davies had to go to him and be like "you're the scorer, you gotta be the one to score" and when Davies begins to hero-ball or drift in more, if Herdman isn't going to tell Davies to stop, David has to be the one telling him to trust his movement and to not crowd him in his own spaces.

[Bigandy]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

This was exactly the scenario I had in mind with Davies.

The game against the states in Hamilton was THE standout match for me from David. Even though he didn't score, he was everywhere. High, low, side-to-side, providing an outlet, taking the foul, slowing down the play, managing the game for us, etc. Everything went through him and he was brilliant. He was also playing without Davies.

It sounds weird to say, but I almost want Davies to get out of his way, if you know what I mean. Stay on the wing where you are world class, then let the game come to you instead of trying to find the game. This perhaps would stop Davies from trying to do too much.

If Herdman can get Davies playing like he did in Nashville, and David playing like he did in Hamilton, and if we can bring two of those things consistently together in the same game, we will be lethal.

Herdman needs to find a formation or strategy to make that happen.

I like this strategy too, but I think it isnt possible against a low block.

Davies deliveries are not world class but rather he puts in decent crosses against an unbalanced defensive shape (Often caused by his speed which drags out defenders). Its difficult to beat players and unbalance an oppositions shape when they are in a low block with 2nd and 3rd man coverage. 

David also will drop deep to influence the game but its not like hes world class at picking apart defenses. dropping into midfield against a low block just puts more guys between david and the goal. I still think he should do that to become involved. 

I think breaking down the low block is our biggest issue 
 

[Snowcrash]

2 hours ago, VinceA said:

Part of it is I think David needs to feel empowered to stand-up to Davies. I don't mean it in any sort of power struggle way, but David should never defer to Davies on anything on the pitch. He's a capable player in his own right, but perhaps is too reserved and kind in important moments.

David should have fought for the WC Penalty, there was also a scoring opportunity in one game where David elected to pass it to Davies and even Davies had to go to him and be like "you're the scorer, you gotta be the one to score" and when Davies begins to hero-ball or drift in more, if Herdman isn't going to tell Davies to stop, David has to be the one telling him to trust his movement and to not crowd him in his own spaces.

I don't want to call it football IQ but David has a much better feel for the flow of the game than Davies. Also, I've been watching since Gent and he's way more effective playing behind a true striker or a pair of strikers. In Gent, he was the recessed forward to Depoitre and Yaremchuk and in Lille's championship season, he was playing under Yilmaz.  Not saying Larin is the quality of these players but he or Cavallini or some other striker needs to be playing in front of David.

[The Beaver 2.0]

1 hour ago, Snowcrash said:

I don't want to call it football IQ but David has a much better feel for the flow of the game than Davies. Also, I've been watching since Gent and he's way more effective playing behind a true striker or a pair of strikers. In Gent, he was the recessed forward to Depoitre and Yaremchuk and in Lille's championship season, he was playing under Yilmaz.  Not saying Larin is the quality of these players but he or Cavallini or some other striker needs to be playing in front of David.

I think calling it football IQ is just fine. David is the smarter footballer of the two, for sure. Love @Obinna's idea of having David, Eustaquio and Kone bossing the centre of the pitch in midfield, with somebody the target up top. Larin, for the moment, but maybe Cavallini, maybe even Brym some day.

[dyslexic nam]

50 minutes ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

I think calling it football IQ is just fine. David is the smarter footballer of the two, for sure. Love @Obinna's idea of having David, Eustaquio and Kone bossing the centre of the pitch in midfield, with somebody the target up top. Larin, for the moment, but maybe Cavallini, maybe even Brym some day.

(Jebbison)

[Shway]

I think our hidden play might be moving David to a 10 position where he can be more involved in the link up with the midfielders, and have less of an expectation to hold the ball/lead the line. He’s great at finding spaces, and is  lethal in transition without the ball.

 Although he can do great job, when he’s a lone 9 he’s required to do a lot more then what he does best.

I’ve been a big advocate of us playing a 352, but I would like to see a 4231.

1 - Larin (we might be silently having a new age striker crisis) 
3 - Davies, David, Buchanan 
2 - Kone, Staq

[frmr]

Ridiculous company.

[Kadenge]

He's performed at a high level for Gent and Lille up there with the best in the game, so why hasn't he moved to a top team yet? When Ajax were mentioned as a suitor before he moved to Lille, they said David was more a 2nd striker or #10 vs a #9.  

[narduch]

1 minute ago, Kadenge said:

He's performed at a high level for Gent and Lille up there with the best in the game, so why hasn't he moved to a top team yet? When Ajax were mentioned as a suitor before he moved to Lille, they said David was more a 2nd striker or #10 vs a #9.  

I think that dry spell last season cost him his move.

He has been much more consistent this year. 

I do expect him to move in the summer.

[frmr]

13 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

He's performed at a high level for Gent and Lille up there with the best in the game, so why hasn't he moved to a top team yet? When Ajax were mentioned as a suitor before he moved to Lille, they said David was more a 2nd striker or #10 vs a #9.  

He hasn't put a full season in Ligue 1 together yet. If he finishes the second half of this season strongly, he'll earn his move for sure.

[Kadenge]

11 minutes ago, narduch said:

I think that dry spell last season cost him his move.

He has been much more consistent this year. 

I do expect him to move in the summer.

Yes but he still ended up with better numbers last yr vs the prior season and Lille was much weaker.  David was not getting service last year. It's much better this season and perhaps why he's been more consistent