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CPL new teams speculation

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8 hours ago, Lofty said:

As a QPR fan I am very sensitive to over paying players. If the current CPL players could earn more elsewhere, they would be playing elsewhere. That means they are not being under paid.

A player deserves a raise when another club is willing to pay him more, and not before (the exception might be if the CPL salary is so low that the player is considering quitting and the CPL club values him enough to want to pay more to keep him).

A higher cap should mean better talent, not more money for existing players. Only CPL players that must be paid more to stay need be given a raise.

That mindset probably makes sense for players making 6, 7, or 8 figures. But the salary cap for players is under 1 million (if anyone wants to dispute since we don't have official numbers, Kurt Larson has said this on air for onesoccer). Let's say it's 950,000, spread across about 23 players. That's an average of 41k. If you have a couple of guys on the higher end making 75k, that leaves 38k per person for the rest. Obviously everyone isn't making the exact same amount, so let's say the bottom is 30k, or maybe even 25k. We aren't talking about massive raises, but an extra 5 or 10k would go a long way for players in this sort of a pay range to allow them to focus more on soccer. It's a bit foolish to say that if this player making 25k was worth 30k they would just go somewhere that will pay them 30k.

We have had a decent number of players quit the game completely from the NASL days because there comes a point in a person's life when they have to start making money. I think trying to avoid that would be the reason to drive up player salaries in the CPL.

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9 hours ago, Lofty said:

As a QPR fan I am very sensitive to over paying players. If the current CPL players could earn more elsewhere, they would be playing elsewhere. That means they are not being under paid.

A player deserves a raise when another club is willing to pay him more, and not before (the exception might be if the CPL salary is so low that the player is considering quitting and the CPL club values him enough to want to pay more to keep him).

A higher cap should mean better talent, not more money for existing players. Only CPL players that must be paid more to stay need be given a raise.

People have already shared some of my expanded thoughts on this, but I'll add that I'm sure that when the players signed their initial contract, they were told "we can only pay you X dollars because we're still getting this league up and running and we don't know what we can afford."  And quite a few players would buy in, because it's true.  They'd be part of founding it and helping it develop.  But once additional funds are available, I can see them going back to the teams and saying "ok, now I want X + Y".  

 

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1 hour ago, narduch said:

The only thing I've seen is some L10 players didn't make the jump because the wages were too low

CPL isn't just bidding against other leagues for talent, it's bidding against Great West Life, Simon Fraser University, RBC, General Motors, Bell, Loblaws, you name it.  The list goes on and on.  People can't put their careers on hold forever pursuing a footballing dream if the wage gap is too great.       

Now if you believe there's enough as yet untapped Canadian talent out there that seasonal player attrition (which I don't expect we'll see a lot of just yet) means your team should be shielded from declining returns because of player turn over then your team is less likely to be effected by the inflationary wage pressures of a very tight labour market.  But I'm not seeing that. 

Maybe at the bottom of every teams roster you can look at what your wage investment is returning and think you can do just as good or better with a rookie face but I think that judgment very quickly turns as you look higher up the roster.

AND if you want to be a development league you have to hold onto your developing talent and that's going to cost you.  It's as simple as that.  

Quality Canadian players, existing or developing, are going to be expensive when compared to relatively equal foreign talent.  They will be had at a premium.  It's a quota league, it will happen, and I wouldn't have it any other way.   

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Kent is completely correct on this.  If you are talking about clubs like QPR with payrolls in the millions the logic of "not being underpaid unless someone else is offering to pay you more" works.  But if the wages on the low side in CPL are not enough to keep the young pros that are the lifeblood of the league from quitting soccer, you wont have a CDN league very long.  All the kids desperate for prosoccer chances that accepted starvation wages this year need to be looked after as well.  As for the theory about giving any extra cap room to the higher end players, that only has so much merit.  Look at Valour, wasted money on supposed top end talent Hoyle, but spent practically nothing on Attardo.  Even Paloucci...I'd rather scour the bushes and give shots to more CDN kids and find a few more Ongaro or Pasquottis.  And those guys need to be paid more than 7-11 wages.   And the expansion teams shouldnt be scared away by a salary cap that is 5-10% higher than it was this year.  

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CPL (IMO) is giving more field and less bench to potential CDN players. I treat this league and its teams with the same regard as any ardent fan of QPR or Scunthorpe or Tranmere. Everything I see has been done more properly than previous versions of a Canuck league. So stay on course, adjust accordingly (like making the top 4 teams get into playoffs) and don’t grow the product by dousing it with too much water or you’ll just drown it before it takes root.

CFL is not NFL but their ardent fans don’t care. Give CPL a 100 years, and get back to me. 😜

Edited by nighttrain

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3 hours ago, narduch said:

If there was any interest couldn't Vancouver and Montreal have sold their franchises instead of folding them?

Did they actually own a franchise or was the deal between the leagues that they could have teams play in the USL? One would be transferable, the other would not.

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6 minutes ago, ted said:

Did they actually own a franchise or was the deal between the leagues that they could have teams play in the USL? One would be transferable, the other would not.

This is a good point. 

I guess all we do know is that the CSA won't let them back in. 

 

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19 minutes ago, ted said:

Did they actually own a franchise or was the deal between the leagues that they could have teams play in the USL? One would be transferable, the other would not.

There was a rumour that the Whitecaps were actively blocked by the CSA from selling to a group in Calgary who would have run the team as an affiliate. It remains to be seen if the CSA will outright block reserve teams in the years ahead if USL D1 is the venue for that down the road. They didn't in the past when the pre-CanPL moratorium was in place and have allowed MLS Academy teams into the USSDA setup. It's also hard to see how something as low key as TFC II in spectator terms also happening in Vancouver and Montreal damages CanPL, especially if CanPL is going to be able to pick up a lot of the castoffs from those teams after MLS has invested big money to develop them right through their academy years.

My point about the Fury was that if MLS reaches 32 franchises and then stops expanding, the USL Championship as the D2 will become the only realistic entry point for a lot of would be investors and large markets left on the outside looking in. If as they have stated they will do the USL also put a cap on franchise numbers then the value of a USL franchise for resale could start to escalate considerably. There are a lot of ifs on that, but it may explain why OSEG might think they are sitting on something potentially valuable at the moment and are in no huge rush to throw it away to put all their eggs into the CanPL basket.

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On 9/21/2019 at 10:51 AM, Kent said:

Obviously everyone isn't making the exact same amount, so let's say the bottom is 30k, or maybe even 25k. We aren't talking about massive raises, but an extra 5 or 10k would go a long way for players in this sort of a pay range to allow them to focus more on soccer.

Cheetah has it bang on when he said CanPL is competing with private businesses in the salary market and that's why increasing the cap won't matter.

The difference between 25k and 35k looks big on paper but in real life it's not something that's going to influence a young guy staying in the league. Anyone that leaves the league because 25k is too little is not going to hang around for 35k because that's not enough to make a living either. In both situations they're either being subsidized by family or working outside of the game.

The top end Canadian and import players have the negotiating leverage because they can leave for Europe or USL.

The bottom end players are completely replaceable. 

Any increase in the cap will go to the the top end Canadians or imports.

Edited by The Real Marc

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44 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

Cheetah has it bang on when he said CanPL is competing with private businesses in the salary market and that's why increasing the cap won't matter.

The difference between 25k and 35k looks big on paper but in real life it's not something that's going to influence a young guy staying in the league. Anyone that leaves the league because 25k is too little is not going to hang around for 35k because that's not enough to make a living either. In both situations they're either being subsidized by family or working outside of the game.

The top end Canadian and import players have the negotiating leverage because they can leave for Europe or USL.

The bottom end players are completely replaceable. 

Any increase in the cap will go to the the top end Canadians or imports.

A 10 k dollar raise, and a few players transferring to bigger leagues would go a hell of a long way imo. I think you’re crazy to think otherwise 

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1 hour ago, The Real Marc said:

Cheetah has it bang on when he said CanPL is competing with private businesses in the salary market and that's why increasing the cap won't matter.

The difference between 25k and 35k looks big on paper but in real life it's not something that's going to influence a young guy staying in the league. Anyone that leaves the league because 25k is too little is not going to hang around for 35k because that's not enough to make a living either. In both situations they're either being subsidized by family or working outside of the game.

The top end Canadian and import players have the negotiating leverage because they can leave for Europe or USL.

The bottom end players are completely replaceable. 

Any increase in the cap will go to the the top end Canadians or imports.

Replaceable.......Ongaro, Attardo, Schale, Skublak Adegubke, Pasquotti??? Plenty of those bottom end players would have something to say about that.  Making an extra 10g over a 7month season is peanuts??  I dont think the bottom salary need to be higher because these kids will go to another league, it needs to be higher so that these kids dont quit soccer before they even give it a shot.  This isnt overpaying by a few million on some big transfer, this is paying a "Henry Ford" kind of wage that make sure there is still a pipeline/pathway of young guys playing soccer.  Isnt the point of the league to grow the game, develop players, get soccer to take root with strong clubs and pathways for kids that love that game and have the drive to go to the top?? You cant choke off the talent at the bottom of the pathway.  

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2 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Replaceable.......Ongaro, Attardo, Schale, Skublak Adegubke, Pasquotti??? Plenty of those bottom end players would have something to say about that.  Making an extra 10g over a 7month season is peanuts??  I dont think the bottom salary need to be higher because these kids will go to another league, it needs to be higher so that these kids dont quit soccer before they even give it a shot.  This isnt overpaying by a few million on some big transfer, this is paying a "Henry Ford" kind of wage that make sure there is still a pipeline/pathway of young guys playing soccer.  Isnt the point of the league to grow the game, develop players, get soccer to take root with strong clubs and pathways for kids that love that game and have the drive to go to the top?? You cant choke off the talent at the bottom of the pathway.  

What has the potential to choke the pathway is the lack of a viable, uninterrupted path - e.g. league stability - and not the salaries to young pros on the first years of that path.

These guys aren't generational talent. They're not in the 1980s when you had to have an uncle with a connection to a club to get you to Europe because Euro scouts rarely travelled over here. The young guys playing CanPL are the guys that already haven't caught on in MLS or Europe.

We're dealing with mid- to low-level prospects. Of that group, anyone who is risk-averse enough to quit a truly promising soccer career because the CanPL pays 25k isn't going to be swayed to suit up for 35k and probably isn't sufficiently soccer-focused to carve out a meaningful career because, quite frankly, they know they have better options.

What the players have to say means nothing. It's about the fans. Did their nobodiness affect your interest in the CanPL? Nope.  If half those guys decide not to play CanPL next year, do you think it will affect attendance? Nope.

It's about economics, not emotion.

 

 

Edited by The Real Marc

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What the players have to say means nothing. It's about the fans. Did their nobodiness affect your interest in the CanPL? Nope.  If half those guys decide not to play CanPL next year, do you think it will affect attendance? Nope.

 

Well you pick then, which one Ongaro or Attardo, which one doesnt play in the CPL this year if you had your way??  And is Canada's soccer situation better if they dont??   Are you related to Ozzie...if I didnt know better I would think you are a sock puppet.  

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On 9/21/2019 at 9:51 AM, Kent said:

That mindset probably makes sense for players making 6, 7, or 8 figures. But the salary cap for players is under 1 million (if anyone wants to dispute since we don't have official numbers, Kurt Larson has said this on air for onesoccer). Let's say it's 950,000, spread across about 23 players. That's an average of 41k. If you have a couple of guys on the higher end making 75k, that leaves 38k per person for the rest. Obviously everyone isn't making the exact same amount, so let's say the bottom is 30k, or maybe even 25k. We aren't talking about massive raises, but an extra 5 or 10k would go a long way for players in this sort of a pay range to allow them to focus more on soccer. It's a bit foolish to say that if this player making 25k was worth 30k they would just go somewhere that will pay them 30k.

We have had a decent number of players quit the game completely from the NASL days because there comes a point in a person's life when they have to start making money. I think trying to avoid that would be the reason to drive up player salaries in the CPL.

Yes, it would be foolish to say that. It would be even more foolish to say that a player who is making $25k is actually "worth" $30k. A player is "worth" what someone will pay him. Players in CPL today are there because they thought it was their best move and they considered the wages to be acceptable. The offer did not and does not need to be higher.

This is Economics 101 but apparently it needs to be said anyway. The advent of CPL has created a demand for Canadian talent: both by virtue of the Canadian content rule and the relative proximity of Canadian players. It is this demand that will cause the wages paid to be set at the correct level by market forces as CPL clubs seek to attract the best available Canadian talent. There is absolutely no need whatsoever for CPL clubs to just bump up wages out of some altruistic principle and nor will they do so.

Edit: Incidentally, additional CPL clubs will increase the demand for Canadian players (assuming the quota does not change) and this should cause wages to rise.

Edited by Lofty

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16 hours ago, Bison44 said:

What the players have to say means nothing. It's about the fans. Did their nobodiness affect your interest in the CanPL? Nope.  If half those guys decide not to play CanPL next year, do you think it will affect attendance? Nope.

 

Well you pick then, which one Ongaro or Attardo, which one doesnt play in the CPL this year if you had your way??  And is Canada's soccer situation better if they dont??   Are you related to Ozzie...if I didnt know better I would think you are a sock puppet.  

Both, one, or none. It doesn't matter, and no Canada's soccer situation will not be better or worse off if one of them decides to join everyday life. I think it's possible to support the league in a positive but honest way that acknowledges its successes and shortcomings, and recognizes the things it need to change and things it can't control. I can appreciate, however, that after so many years of waiting others aren't there yet.

Edited by The Real Marc

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10 hours ago, Lofty said:

Yes, it would be foolish to say that. It would be even more foolish to say that a player who is making $25k is actually "worth" $30k. A player is "worth" what someone will pay him. Players in CPL today are there because they thought it was their best move and they considered the wages to be acceptable. The offer did not and does not need to be higher.

This is Economics 101 but apparently it needs to be said anyway. The advent of CPL has created a demand for Canadian talent: both by virtue of the Canadian content rule and the relative proximity of Canadian players. It is this demand that will cause the wages paid to be set at the correct level by market forces as CPL clubs seek to attract the best available Canadian talent. There is absolutely no need whatsoever for CPL clubs to just bump up wages out of some altruistic principle and nor will they do so.

Edit: Incidentally, additional CPL clubs will increase the demand for Canadian players (assuming the quota does not change) and this should cause wages to rise.

And that is why no league has ever raised their minimum salary.

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10 hours ago, Lofty said:

Edit: Incidentally, additional CPL clubs will increase the demand for Canadian players (assuming the quota does not change) and this should cause wages to rise.

And its one of the reasons why Don Garber spoke out last week with his stupid comments. This will force the 3 MLS teams to pay more too.

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1 hour ago, Ansem said:

 

This is exactly the kind of owner you want in the CPL and the league and fans should be thrilled to have in the league.  This isn't just some rich guy looking to blow some money on a new toy.  Belan seem to be patient and methodical in starting up a CPL club.  This kind of patience and research aren't exercises one takes if they are not willing to be in it for the long haul. 

There are some on here that are upset that after six months there hasn't been any expansion announcements.  However, if this is the quality of ownership that is getting involved in the league, expansion will always be slow but the CPL will be much better for it.  

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On that last bit, there were supposed to be 8 teams at launch with 2 to be announced for 2020 by the time the first games were played (when they would have been added as CSA members at the CSA's 2019 AGM), so the rate of expansion is well behind the schedule that was being stated by the league's commissioner just over a year ago. Hopefully the aspects of the series that were below expectations this year get fixed next summer and we see a Saskatoon team in action in 2021.

Have to agree that Joe Belan is going about things the right way, but others with more skin in the game may see it differently. There have been rumours on Reddit that there is a bit of a rift between Joe Belan and CanPL because the groups that took the plunge by committing in 2018 resent possible investors such as Joe Belan and OSEG, who were more risk averse than they were and are in no rush to roll out the red carpet for them at this point. Whether he gets those games against CanPL opposition next summer will be a strong indication of where things are heading.

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7 hours ago, Kent said:

And that is why no league has ever raised their minimum salary.

Most leagues don't even have a minimum salary -- because they don't need one. For example, the English National League, which I think is similar in standard to CPL. Clubs pay what they can to put out the best possible team and players take the best available offer. The free market at work.

I don't know why MLS have a minimum but I'm guessing it was negotiated by a players' association, which is fair enough and you can understand the players wanting it. But from the club's and the league's perspective, it is not needed.

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10 hours ago, narduch said:

And its one of the reasons why Don Garber spoke out last week with his stupid comments. This will force the 3 MLS teams to pay more too.

Oh, I think Garber's little passive-aggressive display there was perhaps spurred by a broader catalogue of things.  On going out-of-site conversations that maybe aren't evolving entirely the way he, or MLS, likes very much.  * puts on conspiracy theory hat*   Bigger picture stuff. 

I don't think the Canadian MLS teams give a twig about developing Canadian talent, they haven't had to, so they aren't really competing with CPL for Canadian talent so no inflationary pressure there.  At least not until there is a sea change related to the domestic content rules as they apply to the Canadian franchises in MLS.  If/when that happens look out.  CPL is going to get hammered.   

Don't get me wrong.  It will be a great day for Canadian footie and long overdue, but on that exact same day CPL is going to get HAMMERED

 

 

  

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