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CPL new teams speculation

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21 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

I don't think the Canadian MLS teams give a twig about developing Canadian talent, they haven't had to, so they aren't really competing with CPL for Canadian talent so no inflationary pressure there.  At least not until there is a sea change related to the domestic content rules as they apply to the Canadian franchises in MLS.  If/when that happens look out.  CPL is going to get hammered.   

Don't get me wrong.  It will be a great day for Canadian footie and long overdue, but on that exact same day CPL is going to get HAMMERED

You've lost me on the first bit. If MLS teams want the top Canadian players they will have to out bid CPL clubs. That won't be hard for top players like Osorio. But the next tier will be a different matter, especially when CPL increases its salary cap. CPL clubs will want those players and may very well present offers that are higher than MLS would have otherwise offered. Canadian players may also face the choice of "CPL starter" vs. "MLS bench warmer" and will now likely need a better offer to accept the latter. This should certainly force MLS to pay more to Canadian players.

And if MLS ever ends the "domestic player" prejudice shown to Canadians by all USA based MLS franchises, the demand for Canadians will again increase, and a few of the best Canadians in CPL will be pulled into MLS. But I don't think that will amount to CPL being "hammered". (Just think about CPL now: how many players are good enough for MLS?) What will happen is the supply and quality of Canadian players would increase to take advantage of the increased opportunities. And that would be a good thing.

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Here's 2 questions to ponder

1) are there players in the CPL right now who will someday be better than a Jonathan Osorio?

2) If the CPL had exsisted 5 years ago, would FC Edmonton have 20 million dollars in their pocket right now?

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1 minute ago, SpursFlu said:

Here's 2 questions to ponder

1) are there players in the CPL right now who will someday be better than a Jonathan Osorio?

2) If the CPL had exsisted 5 years ago, would FC Edmonton have 20 million dollars in their pocket right now?

Not sure about the answer to 1, but 2 is a weird one because FC Edmonton did exist five years ago.

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Think that example shows that future players like Alphonso Davies probably will still gravitate towards MLS academies before they are 16 even if there is a CanPL or USL franchise in their city. There is no indication so far that CanPL are going to take the academy angle anything like seriously enough to prevent that outcome.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot

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3 hours ago, Lofty said:

...And if MLS ever ends the "domestic player" prejudice shown to Canadians by all USA based MLS franchises,...

You have to be good enough regardless of what passport you have. The problem has been that there haven't been enough Canadian players that were good enough to start or appear as a sub regularly in MLS and didn't have better opportunities available to them in Europe.

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1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

You have to be good enough regardless of what passport you have. The problem has been that there haven't been enough Canadian players that were good enough to start or appear as a sub regularly in MLS and didn't have better opportunities available to them in Europe.

When you are limited to competing for one of seven or eight roster spots, one or two of which are taken by international stars, your passport matters a great deal.

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3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Think that example shows that future players like Alphonso Davies probably will still gravitate towards MLS academies before they are 16 even if there is a CanPL or USL franchise in their city. There is no indication so far that CanPL are going to take the academy angle anything like seriously enough to prevent that outcome.

For all we know more players may choose the Jonathan David route and skip MLS altogether. Nobody can say for certain 

Canadian MLS teams probably would have had him rotting on the bench in favor of some foreign veteran. 

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3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

You have to be good enough regardless of what passport you have. The problem has been that there haven't been enough Canadian players that were good enough to start or appear as a sub regularly in MLS and didn't have better opportunities available to them in Europe.

Claims to be the smartest guy in the room. But refuses to admit that MLS rules discriminates against Canadians. Ok

I would take you more seriously if you were honest 

Edited by narduch

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1 hour ago, The Real Marc said:

When you are limited to competing for one of seven or eight roster spots, one or two of which are taken by international stars, your passport matters a great deal.

US teams seem to be able to get green cards for their imports easily enough, so the import player limits aren't quite as restrictive for the American MLS teams as they appear at first glance. 

https://www.dirtysouthsoccer.com/2018/3/1/17066212/mls-green-cards-immigration-process

The domestic player issue is not ideal but has been blown up out of all proportion, because it's more emotionally palatable to blame that for there being few Canadian starters in the league than the lack of MLS quality players being developed through Canada's youth system. 

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot

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7 hours ago, Lofty said:

You've lost me on the first bit. If MLS teams want the top Canadian players they will have to out bid CPL clubs. That won't be hard for top players like Osorio. But the next tier will be a different matter, especially when CPL increases its salary cap. CPL clubs will want those players and may very well present offers that are higher than MLS would have otherwise offered. Canadian players may also face the choice of "CPL starter" vs. "MLS bench warmer" and will now likely need a better offer to accept the latter. This should certainly force MLS to pay more to Canadian players.

And if MLS ever ends the "domestic player" prejudice shown to Canadians by all USA based MLS franchises, the demand for Canadians will again increase, and a few of the best Canadians in CPL will be pulled into MLS. But I don't think that will amount to CPL being "hammered". (Just think about CPL now: how many players are good enough for MLS?) What will happen is the supply and quality of Canadian players would increase to take advantage of the increased opportunities. And that would be a good thing.

I don't think the CPL teams have the financial wherewithal to compete against Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal if those teams are put into circumstances where they collectively need to find 30 Canadian players.  And those MLS teams will scoop up those players with next to no real inflation to their roster costs because they can.  Valour isn't going to offer Petrasso an extra $50K to stay on.  Toronto could do it without blinking an eye. 

I don't think MLS will ever offer reciprocity to Canadians, which would be the easy answer to eliminating any chance of salary inflation in a domestic quota league like MLS but I do think Canada Soccer is slow walking its way towards respectabliity and things as they are currently with the MLS domestic rules are going to change in this country.  Maybe gradually, maybe all at once, but they're going to change.

And absolutley agree.  Year 1 isn't even over yet and not one player has been sold on or graduated onto bigger things yet and already I think the leagues been a real eye opener for a lot of young people (and not so young) looking for real development opportunites.  Take a wage cut.  Invest in yourself.  Join the CPL.

 

  

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12 hours ago, Lofty said:

I don't know why MLS have a minimum but I'm guessing it was negotiated by a players' association, which is fair enough and you can understand the players wanting it. But from the club's and the league's perspective, it is not needed.

Because in the English National league if a team decides to be as cheap as possible there are repercussions (relegation), whereas in MLS, being a cheapskate can just increase your bottom line

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1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

US teams seem to be able to get green cards for their imports easily enough, so the import player limits aren't quite as restrictive for the American MLS teams as they appear at first glance. 

https://www.dirtysouthsoccer.com/2018/3/1/17066212/mls-green-cards-immigration-process

The domestic player issue is not ideal but has been blown up out of all proportion, because it's more emotionally palatable to blame that for there being few Canadian starters in the league than the lack of MLS quality players being developed through Canada's youth system. 

Your post neither responds to nor mitigates the fact that having a Canadian passport means you 

a) are competing for fewer available spots on a US team
b) face extra administrative hurdles to play on a US team, and
c) face competition from Americans without similar hurdles to play on a Canadian team. (Not to mention the question of how many of our Canadians would qualify for an EB1-A based on exceptional ability as a squad player.)

Those rules don't deter a Frank Yallop or Dwayne De Rosario but that's not who anyone is talking about when they bring up this situation; they are talking about the Marco Rizis or Felix Brilliants and even the Chris Pozniaks. In a cross-border league, it is discriminatory. In a league that uses star acquisitions to draw fans and drive interest, it is a killer blow. It is one - of course not the only one - but is a big reason for a lack of Canadians in the league.

Edited by The Real Marc

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2 hours ago, narduch said:

For all we know more players may choose the Jonathan David route and skip MLS altogether. Nobody can say for certain 

Canadian MLS teams probably would have had him rotting on the bench in favor of some foreign veteran. 

Except that didn't happen with Davies, so it's plausible that it wouldn't have happened with a just-as-good David either.

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35 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

Your post neither responds to nor mitigates the fact that having a Canadian passport means you

...which is why I stated that it is not ideal. Not getting into an argument with you to prove you are not my sock puppet.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot

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6 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

...which is why I stated that it is not ideal. Not getting into an argument with you to prove you are not my sock puppet.

I'm confused. So despite disagreeing with my first post and stating it doesn't affect the number of starters, when I show you how it has affected the starters you now agree. Saves me from bringing up that there we four Canadian starters in year one of MLS  and then when Toronto FC joined, despite a diluted talent pool, more spots, and a Canadian team there was a grand total of ... six (with two of them playing for Houston.) Glad you agree the rules played a large part in that.

I'm fine...heck almost proud to be your sock puppet on attendance because you're right. I am arguing with you on this because you were wrong but seem to agree now so maybe you're my sock puppet? Symbiotic relationship works for me! :)

Edited by The Real Marc

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I actually disagree that the best 15 yr olds will automatically end up with MLS teams. If there is a comparable local option I think a lot of players will stay there. You also need to consider players will start to get tied in to contractual obligations as CPL teams continue to professionalize. How long before a 15 or 16 yr old starts to make noise in the CPL?

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3 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I actually disagree that the best 15 yr olds will automatically end up with MLS teams. If there is a comparable local option I think a lot of players will stay there. You also need to consider players will start to get tied in to contractual obligations as CPL teams continue to professionalize. How long before a 15 or 16 yr old starts to make noise in the CPL?

And don't forget the black magic of MLS contract rules, that a player may want to avoid if CPL demonstrates that it can be an efficient path to bigger and better things.  For may young players, getting into MLS is not their pinnacle aspiration.  Especially when they are idealistic, it would be viewed by many as a stepping stone.  CPL may offer the chance to skip it for promising youth talent.  

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Is it possible that one of the groups are ready? Or can be ready by spring?  Even a pop up takes time.  As much as I would like to see that 8th team, I would hate for whoever it is to be slapped together willy nilly.  Although any ownership groups out there should have had all summer to look at what is working/not working with the existing 7 teams (ie pricing/venues/marketing etc).  

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If I'm Ottawa I'm looking at the CPL right now and thinking, we could be pushing the idea of being in the CPL finals likely on CBC, qualifying for Concacaf League. But instead what is the proposition to fans.. We're fighting for 8th place likely to just go away in an opening round, against whoever fc with no real objective in mind

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1 hour ago, nighttrain said:

Just a guess that it will be a Quebec team....

I wouldn't get too excited over this. As subsequently pointed out by another York 9 fan (judging by the twitter handle that looks very familiar from Reddit), the season format that is being used actually works better with 8 teams and season ticket renewals are already underway elsewhere in CanPL:

 

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7 hours ago, The Real Marc said:

Your post neither responds to nor mitigates the fact that having a Canadian passport means you 

a) are competing for fewer available spots on a US team
b) face extra administrative hurdles to play on a US team, and
c) face competition from Americans without similar hurdles to play on a Canadian team. (Not to mention the question of how many of our Canadians would qualify for an EB1-A based on exceptional ability as a squad player.)

Those rules don't deter a Frank Yallop or Dwayne De Rosario but that's not who anyone is talking about when they bring up this situation; they are talking about the Marco Rizis or Felix Brilliants and even the Chris Pozniaks. In a cross-border league, it is discriminatory. In a league that uses star acquisitions to draw fans and drive interest, it is a killer blow. It is one - of course not the only one - but is a big reason for a lack of Canadians in the league.

I'm not sure where you're the info about Canadians taking International slots on US based MLS teams. The only one that I see in this category is Raheem Edwards, the rest all have domestic status. 

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You are using survior bias here. Saying Edwards is the only example doesnt disprove, it proves it.  MLS teams wont use a INT spot on a CDN, therefore wont sign a CDN (who isnt domestic status). Saying its not a problem because only one player is seemingly effected is the wrong conclusion to draw from the stats.  

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