Jonathan Osorio

[gator]

3 minutes ago, TFC07 said:

Yeah since you guys speak for rest of us.  .

 

WTF?

Edited March 20, 2018 by gator

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, gator said:

I have stood in the South End often enough and heard the slagging off of many Canadian players, it drives me crazy but I'm not going to bother to try to figure out why Canadians were a preferred target for some, many of these people are new to watching soccer hence why I used to hear how bad DeGuzman sucks because he doesn't score enough!

inferiority complex.

[Shortdutchcanuck]

11 hours ago, dsqpr said:

This discussion is taking a strange turn. You seem to be saying that anybody who criticizes Osorio implicitly hates all Canadians. That can't be right!

I'm just teasing TFC07 because his comments on Osorio fit exactly some of the comments I have seen and heard, only in those cases in a much more exaggerated and dismissive way.  

TFC07 seems level-headed enough in both in his criticism of Oso's past play and Oso's improvement this year.  I'm sure the majority of TFC fans are not dismissive toward Canadian soccer players but I do think there is still a small minority who are.  And I'm curious to the psychology behind that.  

[Gian-Luca]

11 hours ago, TFC07 said:

I have sat in east, west and even north stand (before they got rid of it) and I never hear people bashing Canadian players unless they're having a bad game.   

Well I have also taken in games in the west east and south stands over the years and I have heard people bashing Canadian players even when they are having a good game. Exhibit #1 for this would be the guy standing behind me in the East stands who was constantly bashing Osorio throughout the 2017 MLS Cup final, of all games. I'm not saying that this is predominant and that the majority of fans are like this with Canadian players but there are indeed some fans that are like this.

[AvroArrow]

My take on Osorio is that at one point you are going to question his decision making and a couple minutes later you are going to be impressed by a play he made.  He will maddeningly try to dribble through 3 players and lose the ball instead of passing, and then 5 minutes later he beats someone one on and then is making a fantastic pass that cuts the defense in two.

My hope is that with more experience we see less of the former and more of the latter.

[BrennanFan]

5 minutes ago, AvroArrow said:

My take on Osorio is that at one point you are going to question his decision making and a couple minutes later you are going to be impressed by a play he made.  He will maddeningly try to dribble through 3 players and lose the ball instead of passing, and then 5 minutes later he beats someone one on and then is making a fantastic pass that cuts the defense in two.

My hope is that with more experience we see less of the former and more of the latter.

I dont think you can have one without the other.  If Osorio is going to be a starter, Herdman needs to build a team system that exploits Osorio's creativity while downplaying / covering for his turnovers.  Can Piette play the Bradley role on the CMNT?  Dont know.   

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, AvroArrow said:

My take on Osorio is that at one point you are going to question his decision making and a couple minutes later you are going to be impressed by a play he made.  He will maddeningly try to dribble through 3 players and lose the ball instead of passing, and then 5 minutes later he beats someone one on and then is making a fantastic pass that cuts the defense in two.

My hope is that with more experience we see less of the former and more of the latter.

This is an excellent analysis. It is exactly what I have observed too. And explains why he is likely to have some "bashers" in the crowd.

[Bison44]

2 hours ago, AvroArrow said:

My take on Osorio is that at one point you are going to question his decision making and a couple minutes later you are going to be impressed by a play he made.  He will maddeningly try to dribble through 3 players and lose the ball instead of passing, and then 5 minutes later he beats someone one on and then is making a fantastic pass that cuts the defense in two.

My hope is that with more experience we see less of the former and more of the latter.

You just described Giovinco.  How many times a game do you see Gio not pass and try and dribble through or at 3 defenders (last season several times a game).  Sometimes you pass but other times you attack right at them and put them on their heels.  When you are an offensive, creative player you have to break some eggs to win the game eh??  Osorio has some skill and I'd rather see him try and do something with the ball offensively. If we was  a Def-mid it would be another story.  

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Bison44 said:

You just described Giovinco.  How many times a game do you see Gio not pass and try and dribble through or at 3 defenders (last season several times a game).  Sometimes you pass but other times you attack right at them and put them on their heels.  When you are an offensive, creative player you have to break some eggs to win the game eh??  Osorio has some skill and I'd rather see him try and do something with the ball offensively. If we was  a Def-mid it would be another story.  

It all comes down to end product. If you run at people and lose the ball often but score/create 30 goals a season that is fine. 5 goals a season -- not so fine! (Not implying Osorio's stats are the latter, but clearly Gio's goals are why he gets a pass where Oso may not.)

[Shortdutchcanuck]

Clearly the star will always have a longer leash than the role player.

[Bison44]

Gio is better than Osorio??   Someone alert the press.  Obviously Gio can pull off moves that nobody else on the team would even try, but it was the decision making that was originally questioned.  Gio had games last year where he seemed incapable of passing and dribbled into 2-3 defenders over and over trying to draw free kicks seemingly.  We put up with it because he can change a game in a instant like no one else on the tea, can.  But lets not judge osorio too harshly for trying to apply some pressure when you know the defenders are anticipating him funneling the ball  to Gio/Jozy etc.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

Gio is better than Osorio??   Someone alert the press.  Obviously Gio can pull off moves that nobody else on the team would even try, but it was the decision making that was originally questioned.  Gio had games last year where he seemed incapable of passing and dribbled into 2-3 defenders over and over trying to draw free kicks seemingly.  We put up with it because he can change a game in a instant like no one else on the tea, can.  But lets not judge osorio too harshly for trying to apply some pressure when you know the defenders are anticipating him funneling the ball  to Gio/Jozy etc.  

The problem with this discussion is that we are discussing two different Osorios: the current one who is obviously playing extremely well and the 12-18 months ago one who was not at the same level.

Another problem is that he obviously has some massive fans on here who do not seem to be very objective. And good for him for that, he is clearly doing a lot right these days. (So not trying to pick a fight with the Oso fans!)

Edited March 21, 2018 by dsqpr

[Vince193]

I'm a bit sad he's not wearing the #10. I feel he deserves it more than Chapman.

[LeoH037]

4 hours ago, Vince193 said:

I'm a bit sad he's not wearing the #10. I feel he deserves it more than Chapman.

I think you mean #14 (Giovinco wears #10 for Toronto)

[Blackdude]

6 minutes ago, LeoH037 said:

I think you mean #14 (Giovinco wears #10 for Toronto)

No he meant 10.

https://canadasoccer.com/index.php?t=project&sid=1241

[LeoH037]

ah my bad... I still think Oso should be wearing 14 for TFC though

[Free kick]

Regarding Osorio,  he is not a turnover machine.  I dont know where that came from or how that started.  My theory is that it was picked up by one or two suporters after reading criticism, on forums like these, from people outside Southern ontario who have a bias against TFC and didnt clue in that it was a bias.  Funny how you never hear criticism about Teibert.  Where is his thread.   To those, i say go check the career MLS stats pages for both players.   It not even close when you look at everything as whole and year over year (ie: Minutes, goals, assists, games started) in a comparaison  of the two.  Yet i never hear any criticism of Teibert.  

In fact i think, if anything,  he is he opposite of a turnover machine in that sometimes he makes too many passes that are too safe.  His passing accuracy is good.  His strenght is that he makes simple passes effectively and consistently, he moves the ball quickly and has nice touches.  He is a good link up player but when it comes to those decisive penetrating balls, he is not at the same level of Vasquez who can deliver many more decisive balls.  Osorio doesnt strike me as fast and what he doesnt do well is play on both ends of the pitch but there are other players in TFC’s midfield to fill that role so thats not required of him.  What i find unforgivable is that he hardly ever gets a sniff of national team duty even though the skills he bring are something that was sorely missing on National team.   Others with fewer skills got preferreed.  

Regarding the point someone said that there is criticism of Canadians from fans in the south end.  I have not heard it.  When i attending the CMNT games and look around in the supporters sections, i see always the same faces that attend the the TFC so i dont know how this could jive.  The question i would asked is :   Are they criticizing Canadians or the indiviual player? Just because someone doesnt rate a certain player (who happens to be Canadian) very highly doesnt mean they are anti canadian.  There have been several player who were canadian on TFC over the years, that i did not rate highly and havent be shy to say so.  None of them went on to shine elsehwere. So i wasnt wrong.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Free kick

[nolando]

12 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Funny how you never hear criticism about Teibert.  Where is his thread.   To those, i say go check the career MLS stats pages for both players.   It not even close when you look at everything as whole and year over year (ie: Minutes, goals, assists, games started) in a comparaison  of the two.  Yet i never hear any criticism of Teibert.  

 

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by nolando

[Free kick]

1 minute ago, nolando said:

 

giphy.webp

I cant access that link.

[nolando]

4 minutes ago, Free kick said:

I cant access that link.

Fixed the link....but in all honesty you are pretty accurate. The thing is RT really can't earn minutes. He played so well in his last start and then sits the next start, all while Robbo still plays the man of the future card towards him, all these years later. Different players with different issues but, you are right, Oso deserves more respect. Seeing play like his in Mexico the other night put him into a different categor for me, one that deserves serious consideration for MNT minutes in my book.

[Free kick]

On 3/19/2018 at 10:06 PM, gator said:

I have stood in the South End often enough and heard the slagging off of many Canadian players, it drives me crazy but I'm not going to bother to try to figure out why Canadians were a preferred target for some, many of these people are new to watching soccer hence why I used to hear how bad DeGuzman sucks because he doesn't score enough!

But Deguzman was a terrible signing.   I guess that makes me anti canadian?  Why would that be considered Anti canadian?   

They gave the guy seven million and the team regressed from the moment he arrived.  They were poised to gain a play off spot the moment he arrived and then it was all down hill after that cuminating in 5-0 loss agianst the wost team in MLS at Giants stadium in a downpour.   Sure, there were other factors, but clearly his best years  were behind him and yes,  i recall very well when he was a offensive force at the U20 qualifying tournament in Victoria and at the gold cup against Costa rica where he dominated.  Was my favourite player for many years and was thrilled when i heard of the signing.   But by the time he arrived at TFC,  he wasnt the same player.  He proclaimed he was a d mid, but during his tenure the team was terrible defensively.  Isnt that what dmid is partlay responsible for?  When his contract ended, did anyone else in MLS pick him up?  Nope, not a single team in MLS, he ended up in the A-league.  There is a reason for that. 

Every now and then, you have too look at the play on the pitch and not just the nationality.  

Edited March 22, 2018 by Free kick

[gator]

8 hours ago, Free kick said:

But Deguzman was a terrible signing.   I guess that makes me anti canadian?  Why would that be considered Anti canadian?   

They gave the guy seven million and the team regressed from the moment he arrived.  They were poised to gain a play off spot the moment he arrived and then it was all down hill after that cuminating in 5-0 loss agianst the wost team in MLS at Giants stadium in a downpour.   Sure, there were other factors, but clearly his best years  were behind him and yes,  i recall very well when he was a offensive force at the U20 qualifying tournament in Victoria and at the gold cup against Costa rica where he dominated.  Was my favourite player for many years and was thrilled when i heard of the signing.   But by the time he arrived at TFC,  he wasnt the same player.  He proclaimed he was a d mid, but during his tenure the team was terrible defensively.  Isnt that what dmid is partlay responsible for?  When his contract ended, did anyone else in MLS pick him up?  Nope, not a single team in MLS, he ended up in the A-league.  There is a reason for that. 

Every now and then, you have too look at the play on the pitch and not just the nationality.  

Hindsight is great isn't it? Deguzman clearly didn't work out on a pathetically terrible TFC side, look at who played on those teams, the point I was making was many fans, including you apparently expected a DM to be scoring lots of goals, he did score some goals in the past but was never a prolific scorer, his work rate and vision were what he was all about and injuries and age had diminished those qualities in him! Remember Bradley's first season in Toronto when the $10 million signing surrounded by the most expensive talent in the league couldn't lead them to a play off berth? Fans pay their money and are entiltled to their opinion and can express it as they wish, I don't have to agree with it! Hopefully our lone Canadian semi -starter will continue to play well at TFC and for Canada! 

[Obinna]

9 hours ago, Free kick said:

But Deguzman was a terrible signing.   I guess that makes me anti canadian?  Why would that be considered Anti canadian?   

They gave the guy seven million and the team regressed from the moment he arrived.  They were poised to gain a play off spot the moment he arrived and then it was all down hill after that cuminating in 5-0 loss agianst the wost team in MLS at Giants stadium in a downpour.   Sure, there were other factors, but clearly his best years  were behind him and yes,  i recall very well when he was a offensive force at the U20 qualifying tournament in Victoria and at the gold cup against Costa rica where he dominated.  Was my favourite player for many years and was thrilled when i heard of the signing.   But by the time he arrived at TFC,  he wasnt the same player.  He proclaimed he was a d mid, but during his tenure the team was terrible defensively.  Isnt that what dmid is partlay responsible for?  When his contract ended, did anyone else in MLS pick him up?  Nope, not a single team in MLS, he ended up in the A-league.  There is a reason for that. 

Every now and then, you have too look at the play on the pitch and not just the nationality.  

Sounds like you think DeGuzman played a significant role in TFC's regression - and if so then I must disagree.

The main reason I disagree is because he was hardly, if ever, one of TFC's worst players during that stretch.

Now I will admit he didn't lift his team out of their funk, like you'd expect from a DP.

Was he in decline? Absolutely.

But let's be honest, the only reason he gets flack is because he was on a big contract.

Does that make him a terrible signing? Sure, from a "bang for your buck" perspective. I agree with you there.

But you are insinuating that he is largely responsible for the team's poor defense because he played d-mid. That simply wasn't true with DeGuzman. Can you point to any specific examples?

Perhaps I am suffering from Voyagerus brain - but I can't recall any moments where DeGuzman lost the game for Toronto because he played poorly. Most times, I thought he was adequate. We can say adequate was not good enough for the money he was on, but that's different than saying he was the cause of TFC's problems in my eyes.

If he was on $300,000 a season, I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

[Obinna]

Also I agree that Osorio is not a turnover machine. That is just ridiculous. He is just an easy target because he doesn't put up big stats.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Obinna

[aloyol]

35 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Sounds like you think DeGuzman played a significant role in TFC's regression - and if so then I must disagree.

The main reason I disagree is because he was hardly, if ever, one of TFC's worst players during that stretch.

Now I will admit he didn't lift his team out of their funk, like you'd expect from a DP.

Was he in decline? Absolutely.

But let's be honest, the only reason he gets flack is because he was on a big contract.

Does that make him a terrible signing? Sure, from a "bang for your buck" perspective. I agree with you there.

But you are insinuating that he is largely responsible for the team's poor defense because he played d-mid. That simply wasn't true with DeGuzman. Can you point to any specific examples?

Perhaps I am suffering from Voyagerus brain - but I can't recall any moments where DeGuzman lost the game for Toronto because he played poorly. Most times, I thought he was adequate. We can say adequate was not good enough for the money he was on, but that's different than saying he was the cause of TFC's problems in my eyes.

If he was on $300,000 a season, I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

I don't remember if TFC lost that game but he did jump out on a FK that went in (I think it was in Colorado). That was a terrible play that probably didn't help his image.

Edit: They lost:

https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2010/04/18/match-recap-pks-set-piece-haunt-reds

Edited March 22, 2018 by aloyol