Jonathan Osorio

[deschamp86]

de Guzman was certainly overpaid in the same way that Bradley is, however he wasn't nearly as good as Bradley either.

I remember being excited for him to come to TFC after his beast performance at the 2007 Gold Cup, but he never lived up to that. I think that with a better team around de Guzman he would have been remembered more fondly as with better players around him his game would have been elevated

[Obinna]

45 minutes ago, aloyol said:

I don't remember if TFC lost that game but he did jump out on a FK that went in (I think it was in Colorado). That was a terrible play that probably didn't help his image.

Edit: They lost:

https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2010/04/18/match-recap-pks-set-piece-haunt-reds

Fair enough. I do remember that now that you bring it up. I think we'd all argee that was an outlier though.

Was poor timing for him to make such a bad play nonetheless, considering the circumstances.

[Free kick]

2 hours ago, gator said:

Hindsight is great isn't it? Deguzman clearly didn't work out on a pathetically terrible TFC side, look at who played on those teams, the point I was making was many fans, including you apparently expected a DM to be scoring lots of goals, he did score some goals in the past but was never a prolific scorer, his work rate and vision were what he was all about and injuries and age had diminished those qualities in him! Remember Bradley's first season in Toronto when the $10 million signing surrounded by the most expensive talent in the league couldn't lead them to a play off berth? Fans pay their money and are entiltled to their opinion and can express it as they wish, I don't have to agree with it! Hopefully our lone Canadian semi -starter will continue to play well at TFC and for Canada! 

Deguzman's play coupled with his salary was a big reason why the team was terrible.

sure,  you don't have to agree.  But maybe that's why you seem hear the things that you claim to here in south end. If you are going to claim that JDG is better than Bradley or that Altidore (who scored the cup winning goal and was the main reason why the team reached the finals in 2016) should be benched in favour of Hamilton, people who watch and follow the game will call you out on it and you might perceive that as anti Canadian.  

Again,  what happens on the pitch has to count for something.   Otherwise why do they play the games.  We are all CNd supporters here otherwise,  why else would I have been coming here for nearly 20 years.  

[Kadenge]

12 minutes ago, deschamp86 said:

de Guzman was certainly overpaid in the same way that Bradley is, however he wasn't nearly as good as Bradley either.

I remember being excited for him to come to TFC after his beast performance at the 2007 Gold Cup, but he never lived up to that. I think that with a better team around de Guzman he would have been remembered more fondly as with better players around him his game would have been elevated

Agree. Julian was still one of the best players for Canada during the 2014 WC cycle while he was playing for TFC at the time. I recall being at BMO field for the game against Honduras and there was a group of tourists from Europe in front of me  at the game, asking who #6 was. When I told them it was de Guz, their response was "he is controlling the game for Canada"...and this with Atiba on the field. I think TFC fans thought they were getting someone who would score a lot of goals and besides the whole team was a shambles, players, coaches, management. He was less than 2 seasons removed from winning the MVP at Deportivo La Coruna as a DM. How many TFC players have been MVP of a La Liga team? There is no doubt he was past his peak when he joined TFC, but so are many other players. Timing was just not right at TFC.

[deschamp86]

4 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

Agree. Julian was still one of the best players for Canada during the 2014 WC cycle while he was playing for TFC at the time. I recall being at BMO field for the game against Honduras and there was a group of tourists from Europe in front of me  at the game, asking who #6 was. When I told them it was de Guz, their response was "he is controlling the game for Canada"...and this with Atiba on the field. I think TFC fans thought they were getting someone who would score a lot of goals and besides the whole team was a shambles, players, coaches, management. He was less than 2 seasons removed from winning the MVP at Deportivo La Coruna as a DM. How many TFC players have been MVP of a La Liga team? There is no doubt he was past his peak when he joined TFC, but so are many other players. Timing was just not right at TFC.

The thing is, he wasn't really past his prime. He was only 28 when he joined TFC, he was just set up to fail unfortunately. Check out that 2010 roster that he was a part of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Toronto_FC_season

I think if he was 28 joining this current TFC at a TAM contract, he would be turning heads

[gator]

22 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Deguzman's play coupled with his salary was a big reason why the team was terrible.

sure,  you don't have to agree.  But maybe that's why you seem hear the things that you claim to here in south end. If you are going to claim that JDG is better than Bradley or that Altidore (who scored the cup winning goal and was the main reason why the team reached the finals in 2016) should be benched in favour of Hamilton, people who watch and follow the game will call you out on it and you might perceive that as anti Canadian.  

Again,  what happens on the pitch has to count for something.   Otherwise why do they play the games.  We are all CNd supporters here otherwise,  why else would I have been coming here for nearly 20 years.  

Are you saying I'm making this up? The rest of your post about sitting Jozy for Hamilton is silly, I have mentioned in some of the early matches when Jozy was clearly off the pace and tiring that Hamilton or Ricketts for that matter maybe should have been given a chance is that so crazy? Back to Osorio, he is the only unsigned TFC player for next year, I sense a conspiracy here! 

[Gian-Luca]

11 hours ago, Free kick said:

But Deguzman was a terrible signing.   I guess that makes me anti canadian?  Why would that be considered Anti canadian?   

They gave the guy seven million and the team regressed from the moment he arrived.  They were poised to gain a play off spot the moment he arrived and then it was all down hill after that cuminating in 5-0 loss agianst the wost team in MLS at Giants stadium in a downpour.   Sure, there were other factors, but clearly his best years  were behind him and yes,  i recall very well when he was a offensive force at the U20 qualifying tournament in Victoria and at the gold cup against Costa rica where he dominated.  Was my favourite player for many years and was thrilled when i heard of the signing.   But by the time he arrived at TFC,  he wasnt the same player.  He proclaimed he was a d mid, but during his tenure the team was terrible defensively.  Isnt that what dmid is partlay responsible for?  When his contract ended, did anyone else in MLS pick him up?  Nope, not a single team in MLS, he ended up in the A-league.  There is a reason for that. 

Every now and then, you have too look at the play on the pitch and not just the nationality.  

I think they gave De Guzman 7 figures but I don't think they gave him a 7 million salary - that's more than what Bradley is making now.

Also I think your memory is playing tricks if you recall that TFC were some sort of juggernaut in 2009 who then only crashed out because De Guzman arrived mid-season. They were in a position to make the playoffs and then lost the final game, knocking them out - in part because of a career-ending performance by a back-up keeper who's name I can't be bothered to look up.

De Guzman played for Dallas in MLS after he played for TFC and was long past his prime by the time he was playing in the USL. He may not have been a great signing in terms of value for money but you are exaggerating (inventing?) the alleged decline of the team happening when he arrived I'm not sure what any of this is doing in a thread on Jonathan Osorio.

[Gian-Luca]

5 hours ago, Free kick said:

Deguzman's play coupled with his salary was a big reason why the team was terrible.

sure,  you don't have to agree.  But maybe that's why you seem hear the things that you claim to here in south end. If you are going to claim that JDG is better than Bradley or that Altidore (who scored the cup winning goal and was the main reason why the team reached the finals in 2016) should be benched in favour of Hamilton, people who watch and follow the game will call you out on it and you might perceive that as anti Canadian. 

Who has actually claimed this though? I've seen people suggest that when Altidore isn't healthy and not playing well (like in both legs of the Colorado series), subbing him out for one of the other strikers on the bench (who are both Canadian) makes sense but I haven't seen anyone start a "Ricketts should be starting over Jozy!" campaign or thread anywhere.

Getting back to Osorio, I wish I was making up the fact that I had someone behind me bashing him the entire MLS Cup Final in 2017, even well into the 2nd half. At one point I was on the verge of asking the guy if he minded switching seats with someone cheering for Seattle as that would have been preferable. Most of the bashing of Canadian players I hear in the stands tends to be provoked by what they think they see on the field - ie. "De Guzman can't pass" "De Ro can't score" not because there's a Voyageur shouting "Start Fraser over Bradley now!!!!!" Two of the three of those are comments I have heard in the stands at BMO, one of them is not - no prizes for guessing which one is the invented one.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Gian-Luca

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, deschamp86 said:

The thing is, he wasn't really past his prime. He was only 28 when he joined TFC, he was just set up to fail unfortunately. Check out that 2010 roster that he was a part of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Toronto_FC_season

I think if he was 28 joining this current TFC at a TAM contract, he would be turning heads

Partially agree. While 28 is generally considered to be in the window of "your prime" as a midfielder, injury can shorten that window.

I can't recall exactly when his knee problems started, but I am sure it was during his time at TFC and it was clear to me he was not the same player after. 

In additional to all the good points made about the players around him, salary expectations, etc., another big problem were the injuries.

So I would say he came to MLS a half season after his "best year ever" at Deportivo - so he was still in his prime, but not at his peak. The half season before he moved from Spain, he was in and out of the team, due to multiple factors, not least of which were off the field involving not getting paid - which ironically opened the door to a big money MLS move in the first place.

Either way, injury slowed him down and it wasn't long before he was visibly out of his prime at a relatievly young age of 30-31 ish.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Obinna

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, Kadenge said:

Agree. Julian was still one of the best players for Canada during the 2014 WC cycle while he was playing for TFC at the time. I recall being at BMO field for the game against Honduras and there was a group of tourists from Europe in front of me  at the game, asking who #6 was. When I told them it was de Guz, their response was "he is controlling the game for Canada"...and this with Atiba on the field. I think TFC fans thought they were getting someone who would score a lot of goals and besides the whole team was a shambles, players, coaches, management. He was less than 2 seasons removed from winning the MVP at Deportivo La Coruna as a DM. How many TFC players have been MVP of a La Liga team? There is no doubt he was past his peak when he joined TFC, but so are many other players. Timing was just not right at TFC.

There is actually no MVP for a team player in the Spanish league. It was just a fan vote.

What I have always posted here, since day one, is that De Guzman was overpaid from the start. He or his agent probably made up offers from other European teams, which did not exist, and TFC paid him well over he was worth. I think they could have offered him 60% of what his salary was, and he would have accepted it.

And he was always a role player behind the creative guys. He was a good version of Piette, he had good games for Canada, and for Deportivo, and played at a high competitive level for years, we've had few players like him. But he should not have been asked to do much more than he did at TFC, and only was because of his salary.

I don't know if Canadians are judged more harshly than others by Canada fans. I don't think so. I would be happy to see a team like Caps patient with our Canucks, with Adekugbe, for example, and hope they are when Levis comes back, and hope the fans are on board, you have to give a player minutes and confidence, and you can reap the rewards, which for me is having a Canuck playing for your team, and even a local kid.

[1996]

4 hours ago, deschamp86 said:

de Guzman was certainly overpaid in the same way that Bradley is, however he wasn't nearly as good as Bradley either.

I remember being excited for him to come to TFC after his beast performance at the 2007 Gold Cup, but he never lived up to that. I think that with a better team around de Guzman he would have been remembered more fondly as with better players around him his game would have been elevated

Don’t think Bradley is overpaid, without Bradley there is no MLS Cup , no successful 2017 for TFC the guy was the heart and soul of that team last year worth every penny they paid him last year.

[Gian-Luca]

44 minutes ago, 1996 said:

Don’t think Bradley is overpaid, without Bradley there is no MLS Cup , no successful 2017 for TFC the guy was the heart and soul of that team last year worth every penny they paid him last year.

The interesting thing is that it is mostly American players, from what I understand, who have consistently voted him and Altidore as being two of the most overrated players in the league year in and year out. Makes you wonder if people are harder on their own players than they are with foreign players in general.

[Free kick]

5 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Who has actually claimed this though? 

I was referencing a post that was made in the MLS section in the TFC thread.

[El Diego]

Take this for what you will, but...

I heard that when TFC showed interest in De Guzman he initially didn't take it seriously but figured he would at least listen. TFC made him an offer right off the bat and De Guzman was initially shocked at the amount, took a minute to compose himself, and then accepted it. He was ready to get into a negotiation to see if he could get a high enough amount where he couldn't say no, but TFC just made him the offer right away.

Anyway, like I said you can choose to accept this hearsay. I heard it from a friend who had a good source (god, I thought I'd never be that asshole who says stuff like this). It sounded legit to me but you never know.

[Free kick]

8 hours ago, Obinna said:

 

The main reason I disagree is because he was hardly, if ever, one of TFC's worst players during that stretch.

Perhaps I am suffering from Voyagerus brain - but I can't recall any moments where DeGuzman lost the game for Toronto because he played poorly. Most times, I thought he was adequate. We can say adequate was not good enough for the money he was on,

Yes.  I agree completely with this.  He was adequate.   I never said, he lost games and i never said he was TFC’s worst player during that stretch.   Problem is, when you pay a guy seven Mill over three years you need much more than adequate.  In league like MLS, you can get adequate for 200-300k/ yr.    Was that his fault that the club paid that much for him?   Of course not. 

But when you make that much money, there are going to be heightened expectations from the fans.  As there should. And you will be expected to carry the load and burden of the teams failure.  Yes, I acknowledged earlier that there were other factors as to why the team was bad.   But by the same token, there were several players who played at various times during those years who later went on to be quite succesfull elsewhere.  In a league like MLS where teams have a two or three six figure calibre players and a whole bunch of a value under 200k, your six figure guy has to be amongst the best in the league in his role.  Unlike someone like Dero,  he never achieved that recognition.  Also, in a d mind role you have capacity to influence a game unlike say a half back.  Your asked to win balls, your passing organizes/launches the attacks, you can set the pace of the game, support central defence etc.  Its a very tough role to judge and evaluate individually game by game.  You judge a good d-mid by how the “team looks”.  But you have the capacity influence a game because when you control the mid field, you will win most games.  So when you spend six figures on this role,  you should expect play offs at least, especially in MLS. 

Another TFC canadian player like Dero is still revered amongst the fans.  Yet he is Canadian.  And, although the roles are totally different,  Dero was recognized at the league level such as when those mid season garbage games came up against euro teams.  This is not the be all end all, but it tells you something. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Free kick

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Yes.  I agree completely with this.  He was adequate.   I never said, he lost games and i never said he was TFC’s worst player during that stretch.   Problem is, when you pay a guy seven Mill over three years you need much more than adequate.  In league like MLS, you can get adequate for 200-300k/ yr.    Was that his fault that the club paid that much for him?   Of course not. 

But when you make that much money, there are going to be heightened expectations from the fans.  As there should. And you will be expected to carry the load and burden of the teams failure.  Yes, I acknowledged earlier that there were other factors as to why the team was bad.   But by the same token, there were several players who played at various times during those years who later went on to be quite succesfull elsewhere.  In a league like MLS where teams have a two or three six figure calibre players and a whole bunch of a value under 200k, your six figure guy has to be amongst the best in the league in his role.  Unlike someone like Dero,  he never achieved that recognition.  Also, in a d mind role you have capacity to influence a game unlike say a half back.  Your asked to win balls, launch the attacks, set the pace of the game, support central defence etc.  Its a very tough role to judge and evaluate individually game by game.  You judge a good d-mid by how the “team looks”.  But you the capacity influence a game because when you control the mid field, you will win most games.  So when you spend six figures on this role,  you should expect play offs. 

Another TFC canadian player like Dero is still revered amongst the fans.  Yet he is Canadian.  And, although the roles are totally different,  Dero was recognized at the league level such as when those mid season garbage games came up against euro teams.  This is not the be all end all, but it tells you something.  

On the first comment I bolded, are you suggesting he failed to do that?

On the second comment, it seems you are suggesting a d-mid gets a good judgment if the team does well. However, Piette received good judgements by most when the Impact did well last year, and when he did poorly he still receieved good judgements. What's up with that?

Totally agree on the salary issue, and fans can say they expect more. I get that. I just have a problem with saying DeGuzman was bad at TFC full stop. Not that you are saying that - more of a general comment for anyone slagging on him. I'm cool if people slag on him for being overpaid, but not if they say he was a terrible player full stop. That is objectively untrue.

[Free kick]

7 minutes ago, Obinna said:

On the first comment I bolded, are you suggesting he failed to do that?

On the second comment, it seems you are suggesting a d-mid gets a good judgment if the team does well. However, Piette received good judgements by most when the Impact did well last year, and when he did poorly he still receieved good judgements. What's up with that?

Totally agree on the salary issue, and fans can say they expect more. I get that. I just have a problem with saying DeGuzman was bad at TFC full stop. Not that you are saying that - more of a general comment for anyone slagging on him. I'm cool if people slag on him for being overpaid, but not if they say he was a terrible player full stop. That is objectively untrue.

I did not necessarily say he failed at that.  I was listing attributes of that role to emphasize why they can directly influence the game.   And why its important and why a seven mill dollar investment in that role can make a huge impact on results and play offs, at least.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Free kick

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, Free kick said:

No i did not say he failed at that.  I was listing attyributes of that role and why they can directly influence the game.   And why its important and why a seven mill dollar player in that role can make a huge impact on results. 

All of those attributes you listed he did well - but not well enough to transform the team. Is that on him? I don't know. He was surrounded by some less than satisfactory players.

I think a lot of it was the style of player Julian was. He was the type of player who could think and play at a high level when surrounded with other likeminded players. Like Pirlo but obviously not as good and in many ways they are different players entirely, but they share that particular quality.

Which is why both did not have as much succcess in MLS as you'd expect. I always suspected Pirlo would not excel in MLS before he even stepped on the field.

Actually, Pirlo is a good example. People will say he was a bust, but he never played badly, he just didn't make the impact you'd expect from a guy with his name and salary. Same situation with deGuzman.

With Pirlo and DeGuzman, it says more about the players around them not being at their level, which they require 

Bradley is a different player entirely and doesn't require this. He is different in that his physicality allows him to shine no matter how bad the other players around him are. His style as well - he doesn't depend on the runs of others to make things happen.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Obinna

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, 1996 said:

Don’t think Bradley is overpaid, without Bradley there is no MLS Cup , no successful 2017 for TFC the guy was the heart and soul of that team last year worth every penny they paid him last year.

The salary spreads on most teams in MLS are disgraceful, because there is no proportion between service and they are in fact contrary to the basic principle of what a team is supposed to be. You are working as hard, take responsability, sacrifice your body, are committed to the same goals. You are teammates, for the love of Pete. But you are shafted in relation to these prima donnas, I find it to show a lack of integrity on the part of teams, excess here, stinginess there. The DPs are way overpaid in relation to the rest of the plebes. There is no league with such huge discrepancies, apart from China. No other sport has this either. So IMO Bradley is terribly overpaid, and Gio, and Jozy. 

I've followed this for years, and though I am no expert, all pro soccer teams in the world do things similarly. This involves establishing tiers or levels, and fitting players into them. They are stepped, so that a raise is meaningful but not exagerrated. All players fit somewhere, based on performance, place in their career, and a player can be moved up to a higher tier and paid more; if you don't want him, mid-contract, you loan him out by convincing him he won't get minutes, and don't re-sign him. Only huge stars can be paid way over the tiers, breaking the mould. There are only a dozen or so players like this in the world, and none in MLS.

For me if there are players making 7 million at TFC, then no one apart from youth out of the academies should make much less than 10% of that. There should never be a glaring discrepancy. But you have established pro players at TFC making 2.5% of what the guys at the top do. For me that is totally unethical. 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Unnamed Trialist

[A_Gagne]

4 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

The interesting thing is that it is mostly American players, from what I understand, who have consistently voted him and Altidore as being two of the most overrated players in the league year in and year out. Makes you wonder if people are harder on their own players than they are with foreign players in general.

Vote Bradley and Altidore overrated all ya want suckers... they only led TFC to a treble last year!

As for JDG, let's not forget how incompetent TFC management was back then. If they wanted to grossly over pay him, I sure as hell don't blame him for taking the money. He was a good player, not a great player, but he sure as hell wasn't the reason that team sucked, and good for him for getting paid!

[deschamp86]

14 hours ago, 1996 said:

Don’t think Bradley is overpaid, without Bradley there is no MLS Cup , no successful 2017 for TFC the guy was the heart and soul of that team last year worth every penny they paid him last year.

Bradley is my favourite player on TFC. But the money he is being paid, he would likely not get anywhere else in the world, so I would qualify that as being overpaid. However, for his cap hit, it really doesn't matter

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 minutes ago, deschamp86 said:

Bradley is my favourite player on TFC. But the money he is being paid, he would likely not get anywhere else in the world, so I would qualify that as being overpaid. However, for his cap hit, it really doesn't matter

If they were in Spain, Gio would be playing for Villareal, he'd be making 3-3.5million euros a year, assuming he were scoring. Altidore would be at Celta Vigo or Real Sociedad, and he'd be making betweeen 1,5 and 2. Bradley  would be making between 1.2 and 1.5 on a similar level team, with an outside chance of geting into Europa League. Their bonuses for objectives and appearances would top that off to as much as 20% more. 

JDG had one case of rumoured interest from Spain, before he went to TFC. It was from Osasuna, who were also looking at an Iranian mid at the same time. They would not have paid him more than 700,000 euros a year back then, probably half a million. TFC could have offered him 900,000 and he would have taken it just the same.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Unnamed Trialist

[Fort York Redcoat1555362293]

Oso looked to be a leader out there v NZ. Nice to see. 

[BearcatSA]

Late to this discussion here but I'll fire in my two bits regarding a comparison between Osorio and JDG.  In essence, they were/are both role players.  Quality, important, key component role players for a club are different times, but still supporting cast types.  JDG at TFC was a role player whose performances were tied to the team around him:  if the club played well, he played well in the process.  But if the team's form on the day was poor, more often than not he was at the same level of performance.  And at the time I wasn't the only guy who saw him as a supporting cast type:  Winter brought in Frings to be the leader of his midfield during the midseason transfer window.  Osorio is off to a great start and I hope it keeps going for club and country.  But I still see him as a supporting type as opposed to being the focal point of a team's midfield. 

Look, the biggest team psyche issue this NT has struggled with (for years!) is guys who bought into the personal hype and thought they were better than they actually were but the moment when things didn't go according to the hero narrative they resorted to finger pointing and throwing some other depth role player(s)  or manager under the bus.  Getting the guys to think as a collective in an all-for-one-and-one-for-all mindset to achieve results is how Herdman's going to make his money and take his cred to the next level.

 

[Gian-Luca]

New Osorio radio interview post-NZ match:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/jonathan-osorio-mls-major-league-soccer-tfc-toronto-fc-canada/